235 replies to this topic

[Free Northman]

Ghost714, on 18 April 2012 - 04:14 AM, said:

The Horn Mance claimed to be the Horn of Joramun got burned by Mel.

I personally believe that the Horn of Joramun is the Horn Jon gave to Sam, the one he found with all the Dragonglass near the Fist, and there for I believe that Horn is safe in Oldtown.

I don't think the Others or Wights can go through they Wall, nor around it, but I don't see why they couldn't go over it. I don't believe that the entire Wall will fall or anything. I think the struggle will be in holding the Wall, and repelling the Others/Wights as they try and come over it. I mean, if the Wall itself was enough to keep out the Others, there would not be much need for the Nights Watch. Obviously the Wall does most of the protecting, but it's still up to the Nights Watch to man the Wall, and in this case it's up to the rest of the North to help the Nights Watch.  If the Wall were to fall though, I don't think it is a winnable fight for the realms of men. Every person killed would become a Wight, it would be like in a zombie movie, it would take no time for everyone to become Wights. That's why I think the real threat and trouble will be in manning the Wall, trying to keep the Others/Wights from coming over, and trying to keep them from bringing down the Wall. Even then though, without the Wall coming down, men might still lose, because there aren't that many people that will be able to man the Wall, after the war and all the death that comes with a harsh years long winter. That's why I do not think the Wall has to fall "for there to be a real threat", unlike most people who believe the Wall must fall. No matter what people might think though, the Others can still be a major threat against the Realms of men, without the whole Wall coming down.

If that happens, then the entire South would still consider the Others to be snarks and grumkins, and the Long Night would not have such a reputation all across the world.

The last time there was no Wall, and the Others invaded the lands of man, and men still prevailed.

I should think the same needs to happen this time, else it will be an awful anti climax.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

We've seen wights on the other side of the Wall, but no Others.  I continue to think that the servants of the others can cross the over or around the Wall, but the Others themselves or contained North of the Wall until it comes down.

[Ghost714]

Free Northman, on 18 April 2012 - 05:31 AM, said:

If that happens, then the entire South would still consider the Others to be snarks and grumkins, and the Long Night would not have such a reputation all across the world.

The last time there was no Wall, and the Others invaded the lands of man, and men still prevailed.

I should think the same needs to happen this time, else it will be an awful anti climax.

Last time the Long Night happened, I doubt the North had lost a third of its army. If the Others can just get past the Wall so easily, then what's the point of making the Wall?

And who cares if the South doesn't believe in the Others, of the North can beat them back it won't matter if the South achnowledges their existence. However considering Stannis is going to be in the fight, if he lives he and his men will be able to verify what the North is saying, that the Others are real. Also Marwin is going to Dany and he knows about the Others, same with Moqorro, so it's very possibly that all of her people will know about the Others. So there will be a lot of people that will know about the Others, not just the North. Sure people like Cersei wont believe in them, but what the hell does that matter?

Stallion That Mounts Texas, on 18 April 2012 - 08:26 AM, said:

We've seen wights on the other side of the Wall, but no Others.  I continue to think that the servants of the others can cross the over or around the Wall, but the Others themselves or contained North of the Wall until it comes down.

There have been Wights south of the Wall, the one that tried to kill the Old Bear, and the one that killed Ser Jeremy Rykkar at Castle Black, and a few at Eastwatch. However, those Wights were carried through the Wall by the Nights Watch, that is the only reason they could go through the Wall. The Brothers of the Nights Watch found the dead bodies of some of their Rangers, and they brought the bodies through the Wall. Also if you remember, Coldhands could not pass through the Black Gate, when he was with Sam and Gilly.

So I don't think the Wights can go through the Wall, same with the Others, but they might be able to go over it. Also according to Cotter Pyke, there were dead things in the water at Hardhome, those may have been Wights. So it might be possible for the Wights to swim around the Wall at Eastwatch-by-the-sea.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Ghost714, on 18 April 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

Last time the Long Night happened, I doubt the North had lost a third of its army. If the Others can just get past the Wall so easily, then what's the point of making the Wall?

And who cares if the South doesn't believe in the Others, of the North can beat them back it won't matter if the South achnowledges their existence. However considering Stannis is going to be in the fight, if he lives he and his men will be able to verify what the North is saying, that the Others are real. Also Marwin is going to Dany and he knows about the Others, same with Moqorro, so it's very possibly that all of her people will know about the Others. So there will be a lot of people that will know about the Others, not just the North. Sure people like Cersei wont believe in them, but what the hell does that matter?



There have been Wights south of the Wall, the one that tried to kill the Old Bear, and the one that killed Ser Jeremy Rykkar at Castle Black, and a few at Eastwatch. However, those Wights were carried through the Wall by the Nights Watch, that is the only reason they could go through the Wall. The Brothers of the Nights Watch found the dead bodies of some of their Rangers, and they brought the bodies through the Wall. Also if you remember, Coldhands could not pass through the Black Gate, when he was with Sam and Gilly.

So I don't think the Wights can go through the Wall, same with the Others, but they might be able to go over it. Also according to Cotter Pyke, there were dead things in the water at Hardhome, those may have been Wights. So it might be possible for the Wights to swim around the Wall at Eastwatch-by-the-sea.

I don't think Coldhands is a wight necessarily.  He is not under the control of the Others and his life is not sustained by them.  I think it is likely that whatever force sustains the Others, also sustains Coldhands.  In effect he is a type of Other.  Therefore it makes sense that he cannot pass.  

However there seems to be something about the wights that allow them to pass through.  Unless all that is needed is an invitation to pass (like inviting a vampire into your home).  Once it is carried across it now free to come and go as it pleases.

[Ghost714]

That's the thing though, no Wights have passed through the Wall on their own, the Nights Watch found the bodies and carried them through the Wall. That's not proof that the Wights can go through the Wall, it shows that the Wights could not go through the Wall, so they allowed themselves to be found by the Nights Watch. This theory is given further proof, when Coldhands can't go through the Wall. Coldhands is exactly like a Wight, he doesn't eat, or sleep, or breath even, he has black cold/hard hands, and Bloodraven confirmed that he can't be killed, because he was killed "long ago". Now we don't know why Coldhands is not under the control of the Others, that all depends on what kind of theory you believe. Some people think that Coldhands is Benjen Stark, and he is able to think and speak, and not be under control of the Others, because Benjen was a Warg, and he Warged his own body after it turned into a Wight. Some people think that Bloodraven and the CotF did something to Coldhands, to make it to wear the Others can't control him, because he was a Ranger that was in contact with the CotF and Bloodraven before he died. Benjen Stark works for that theory to. Some people think Coldhands is/was the Nights King.

So the reason Coldhands is not controlled by the Others is definitely up to speculation, but almost all agree that Coldhands is for sure a Wight, and even though he is not controlled by the Others, being a Wight still prevented him from passing through the Black Gate.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Ghost714, on 19 April 2012 - 12:11 AM, said:

That's the thing though, no Wights have passed through the Wall on their own, the Nights Watch found the bodies and carried them through the Wall. That's not proof that the Wights can go through the Wall, it shows that the Wights could not go through the Wall, so they allowed themselves to be found by the Nights Watch. This theory is given further proof, when Coldhands can't go through the Wall. Coldhands is exactly like a Wight, he doesn't eat, or sleep, or breath even, he has black cold/hard hands, and Bloodraven confirmed that he can't be killed, because he was killed "long ago". Now we don't know why Coldhands is not under the control of the Others, that all depends on what kind of theory you believe. Some people think that Coldhands is Benjen Stark, and he is able to think and speak, and not be under control of the Others, because Benjen was a Warg, and he Warged his own body after it turned into a Wight. Some people think that Bloodraven and the CotF did something to Coldhands, to make it to wear the Others can't control him, because he was a Ranger that was in contact with the CotF and Bloodraven before he died. Benjen Stark works for that theory to. Some people think Coldhands is/was the Nights King.

So the reason Coldhands is not controlled by the Others is definitely up to speculation, but almost all agree that Coldhands is for sure a Wight, and even though he is not controlled by the Others, being a Wight still prevented him from passing through the Black Gate.

The other explanation is that the Others power is like a virus that lays dormant until the body crosses the Wall and then activates.  That makes sense as well.

[Ghost714]

@ Stallion That Mounts Texas

Well that doesnt really make sense, because almost all the Wights we have seen have been North of the Wall, so it's not like going through the Wall is what "activates" them as Wights. Also when the Nights Watch found Othor and Jafer Flowers(the two Wights that attacked Castle Black), there was no blood near their bodies. Meaning that they died somewhere else, then turned into Wights, and then they walked close to the Wall, and pretended to be dead until the Nights Watch could find them. Once the Nights Watch found them, they brought them through the Wall, and in the black of night they stopped pretending to be dead, and they attacked.

I really don't think being a Wight is caused by some virus, to me it's a more of a supernatural magical thing. It's not like you have to be bitten by a Wight to turn into a Wight. If you die North of the Wall, when the Others are near, that's all it takes to become a Wight.

[jon rr stark]

Ghost714, on 19 April 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

@ Stallion That Mounts Texas

Well that doesnt really make sense, because almost all the Wights we have seen have been North of the Wall, so it's not like going through the Wall is what "activates" them as Wights. Also when the Nights Watch found Othor and Jafer Flowers(the two Wights that attacked Castle Black), there was no blood near their bodies. Meaning that they died somewhere else, then turned into Wights, and then they walked close to the Wall, and pretended to be dead until the Nights Watch could find them. Once the Nights Watch found them, they brought them through the Wall, and in the black of night they stopped pretending to be dead, and they attacked.

I really don't think being a Wight is caused by some virus, to me it's a more of a supernatural magical thing. It's not like you have to be bitten by a Wight to turn into a Wight. If you die North of the Wall, when the Others are near, that's all it takes to become a Wight.

Werent these others not wights?

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Ghost714, on 19 April 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

@ Stallion That Mounts Texas

Well that doesnt really make sense, because almost all the Wights we have seen have been North of the Wall, so it's not like going through the Wall is what "activates" them as Wights. Also when the Nights Watch found Othor and Jafer Flowers(the two Wights that attacked Castle Black), there was no blood near their bodies. Meaning that they died somewhere else, then turned into Wights, and then they walked close to the Wall, and pretended to be dead until the Nights Watch could find them. Once the Nights Watch found them, they brought them through the Wall, and in the black of night they stopped pretending to be dead, and they attacked.

I really don't think being a Wight is caused by some virus, to me it's a more of a supernatural magical thing. It's not like you have to be bitten by a Wight to turn into a Wight. If you die North of the Wall, when the Others are near, that's all it takes to become a Wight.

You think the wights are pretending to be dead?  Until awakened by the power of the Others, they are indeed dead.  Additionally, aside from killing we have not seen any particular intelligence from the wights.  They are zombies more or less and have no original thoughts that have not come from their masters.

My "virus" theory is nothing more than an analogy.

Edited by Stallion That Mounts Texas, 19 April 2012 - 03:32 PM.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

jon rr stark, on 19 April 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

Werent these others not wights?

The Others are another race completely.  It is there power that raises the dead and turns them into their servants (wights).

[jon rr stark]

yea I getting confused with White walkers

[Ghost714]

@ Stallion That Mounts Texas

I disagree, the Wights have shown some level of intelligence, the Wight Othor knew where to go, to get to Mormonts apartments. Now either the Wight remembers Lord Commander Mormont(which is what Jon thinks), or the Wight was being controlled by the Others. I do believe that the Others control the Wights to a certain degree, but I don't think they control their each and every move. I believe the Others gave the "order" to attack Castle Black, but everything else the Wights did on their own. Like going to Mormonts apartment, I believe that Wight was ordered to kill the Old Bear, but it did everything else on its own.

And yes I believe the Wights were pretending to be dead, until the Nights Watch found them, and took them south of the Wall. Unless the Others carried the Wights closer to the Wall, and then left them there to be found, those Wights had to have walked themselves there. There was no blood where the Wights were found, suggesting they were killed somewhere else, and were then moved close to the Wall, where the Nights Watch could find them. So I believe Othor and Jafer Flowers became Wights as soon as they died. If the Wights could be "activated" once South of the Wall, then why didn't the bodies Jon put in the Ice cells turn into Wights, why doesn't every dead body turn into a Wight after a person is dead south of the Wall? That's why I believe Othor and Jafer were "activated" as Wights, before going south of the Wall, and that's why I think they were Wights when the Watch found them, and they were just pretending to be dead(well they are dead, but they were pretending to not be animated). Something about the magic in the Wall prevents people from turning into Wighs after they have died. So I don't think it's possible for the Others to have turned Jafer and Othor into Wights, after they were south of the Wall, they had to have been Wights befor that. Now the Others might have ordered them to "wake up" once south of the Wall, but they were already Wights.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Ghost714, on 19 April 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

@ Stallion That Mounts Texas

I disagree, the Wights have shown some level of intelligence, the Wight Othor knew where to go, to get to Mormonts apartments. Now either the Wight remembers Lord Commander Mormont(which is what Jon thinks), or the Wight was being controlled by the Others. I do believe that the Others control the Wights to a certain degree, but I don't think they control their each and every move. I believe the Others gave the "order" to attack Castle Black, but everything else the Wights did on their own. Like going to Mormonts apartment, I believe that Wight was ordered to kill the Old Bear, but it did everything else on its own.

And yes I believe the Wights were pretending to be dead, until the Nights Watch found them, and took them south of the Wall. Unless the Others carried the Wights closer to the Wall, and then left them there to be found, those Wights had to have walked themselves there. There was no blood where the Wights were found, suggesting they were killed somewhere else, and were then moved close to the Wall, where the Nights Watch could find them. So I believe Othor and Jafer Flowers became Wights as soon as they died. If the Wights could be "activated" once South of the Wall, then why didn't the bodies Jon put in the Ice cells turn into Wights, why doesn't every dead body turn into a Wight after a person is dead south of the Wall? That's why I believe Othor and Jafer were "activated" as Wights, before going south of the Wall, and that's why I think they were Wights when the Watch found them, and they were just pretending to be dead(well they are dead, but they were pretending to not be animated). Something about the magic in the Wall prevents people from turning into Wighs after they have died. So I don't think it's possible for the Others to have turned Jafer and Othor into Wights, after they were south of the Wall, they had to have been Wights befor that. Now the Others might have ordered them to "wake up" once south of the Wall, but they were already Wights.

Your theory makes sense Ghost.

However, I'm much more concerned with how the White Walker (Others) make more of themselves.  As we know, Craster (and the Nights King before him) have sacrificed children to the Others.  I don't think the Others are killing the children per se.  I suspect they are possibly feeding the children their blood or something magical (more likely).  

But the question remains why children and not adults?  Adults are killed and turned into wights.

[King Doug]

I haven't read every page of this thread, but I think I get the basic idea of it. Sorry if I'm repeating some of it.

@Free Northman- You are arguing that the North should be able to field another army of at least 20,000. Ok, I could buy that they could get 20,000 more men to hold swords, but they won't be soldiers.

First, I think you extrapolating the hill clansmen's numbers is a way off base. Yes, Stannis was able to round up about 4,000 men when just passing through. But I'm sure the hill clans are more concentrated than the rest of the north. Also, The clansmen are notorious for their affinity to violence, meaning they are brought up being fighters and most of them would be able to uproot and leave to fight immediately. Since most are raised as fighters, they probably committed MOST men. Which would not leave many more.

Second, someone else did say this but the North had already fought in 2 wars less than 20 years ago. They would not be able to repopulate quick enough to keep fielding armies of 20,000+.

Also, I don't know if this was answered yet, but I noticed many people were curious as to why Stark troops weren't more prevalent. I don't remember which book this was from, but I'm under the impression that Winterfell is not really a city during summer. It is relatively empty because there aren't many towns or villages nearby. Winterfell is more populated in the Winter, when many from the surrounding villages seek refuge from the elements within the castle.

[Ghost714]

@King Doug

I think you should read more of the thread, because many people have provided evidence to suggest that the North is able to muster another army of at least 20,000, possibly more. We know that Stannis has around 5,000 men, most of them Northmen, and according to Theon in the gift chapter, Bolton's army is bigger than Stannis's. So right there, we have around at least 10,000 Northmen, when not counting the Frey's, because they are not Northmen. Then you have Wyman Manderly who left all his strenght at White Harbor, he only took 300 men to Winterfell, a hundred of those were Knights. So Manderly probably has anywhere from 6-10 thousand fighting men in White Harbor. When you throw in possible forces from Skaggos, and Wildlings, you can easily get to a number of 20,000. They might not all be the best of the best, but I would say there is around 20,000 good fighting men left in the North, and around 10,000 more when you count the greybeards and greenboys, like the five hundred men with Mors Crowfood Umber etc.

[King Doug]

Ghost714, on 19 April 2012 - 06:14 PM, said:

@King Doug

I think you should read more of the thread, because many people have provided evidence to suggest that the North is able to muster another army of at least 20,000, possibly more. We know that Stannis has around 5,000 men, most of them Northmen, and according to Theon in the gift chapter, Bolton's army is bigger than Stannis's. So right there, we have around at least 10,000 Northmen, when not counting the Frey's, because they are not Northmen. Then you have Wyman Manderly who left all his strenght at White Harbor, he only took 300 men to Winterfell, a hundred of those were Knights. So Manderly probably has anywhere from 6-10 thousand fighting men in White Harbor. When you throw in possible forces from Skaggos, and Wildlings, you can easily get to a number of 20,000. They might not all be the best of the best, but I would say there is around 20,000 good fighting men left in the North, and around 10,000 more when you count the greybeards and greenboys, like the five hundred men with Mors Crowfood Umber etc.

I agree there are more fighting men in the North, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate. But to say that Stannis being able to quickly get 4000 men from the mountain clans is not that solid of an argument. Like I said before, they are a culture that values fighting prowess and most men are likely warriors. They are also probably concentrated into a few villages in the few areas of the moutains that are habitable.

Around 20,000 more fighting men...maybe. But Bolton's army includes the number of Freys. I know the Manderlys still have a good force. But we have no reason to believe Skagos has that many men, nor do we have any reason to believe they don't have more. If you count the wildlings then yes, they will have at least 20,000.

With that said, we are led to believe that Robb brought a large portion of the fighting force with him. We are never given any clue that Stannis or Roose might be able to summon another 20,000+ on a whim. Not only that, We know that Roose Bolton is quite smart. If there truly was another army capable of being raised to oppose him.

Let's be generous and say Manderly has 10,000 men just chillin. There is only one other house that we know has left some men behind (the lady that says she hates the Starks, can't remember which one...Dustin maybe?). But the rest of the houses most likely are just about exhausted. We know the Umbers and Karstarks are just about out of men. Same with the Cerwyns, Glovers, Talharts. The only real question mark is the Reeds. We don't know how many men they have and if they will commit (I believe they will).

A lot of question marks in the remaining forces and I think that to say the North could field an army of 40,000 (including Robb's army) is a bit of a stretch. We know that the Reach has the biggest population because it is in the most fertile lands. And we know that the westerlands are the second most populous. After those two there is a pretty significant difference. Next most populous would be the Riverlands, followed by the Stormlands and North, with Iron Islands and Dorne having the lowest populations.

Tywin was able to have a force of 30,000. And that was with in the West where it would be able to call the banners quickly. Also Jaime commanding 20,000+, and the other army of 20,000 that was decimated by Robb. Thats 70,000+.
Renly claimed he had 100,000 men, likely a bit of a fabrication but we'll assume he was telling the truth.
During Robert's rebellion, the Dornish only mustered a force of 10,000 to aid the Iron Throne. Elia was being held captive by Aerys and it is clear they loved Elia so they would have wanted to protect her. Maybe that is all they could muster...

After the North playing a HUGE role in Robert's rebellion, and also in the Greyjoy rebellion. I think their total fighting force would be roughly 40,000. MAX

[Ghost714]

King Doug, on 19 April 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

I agree there are more fighting men in the North, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate. But to say that Stannis being able to quickly get 4000 men from the mountain clans is not that solid of an argument. Like I said before, they are a culture that values fighting prowess and most men are likely warriors. They are also probably concentrated into a few villages in the few areas of the moutains that are habitable.

Around 20,000 more fighting men...maybe. But Bolton's army includes the number of Freys. I know the Manderlys still have a good force. But we have no reason to believe Skagos has that many men, nor do we have any reason to believe they don't have more. If you count the wildlings then yes, they will have at least 20,000.

With that said, we are led to believe that Robb brought a large portion of the fighting force with him. We are never given any clue that Stannis or Roose might be able to summon another 20,000+ on a whim. Not only that, We know that Roose Bolton is quite smart. If there truly was another army capable of being raised to oppose him.

Let's be generous and say Manderly has 10,000 men just chillin. There is only one other house that we know has left some men behind (the lady that says she hates the Starks, can't remember which one...Dustin maybe?). But the rest of the houses most likely are just about exhausted. We know the Umbers and Karstarks are just about out of men. Same with the Cerwyns, Glovers, Talharts. The only real question mark is the Reeds. We don't know how many men they have and if they will commit (I believe they will).

A lot of question marks in the remaining forces and I think that to say the North could field an army of 40,000 (including Robb's army) is a bit of a stretch. We know that the Reach has the biggest population because it is in the most fertile lands. And we know that the westerlands are the second most populous. After those two there is a pretty significant difference. Next most populous would be the Riverlands, followed by the Stormlands and North, with Iron Islands and Dorne having the lowest populations.

Tywin was able to have a force of 30,000. And that was with in the West where it would be able to call the banners quickly. Also Jaime commanding 20,000+, and the other army of 20,000 that was decimated by Robb. Thats 70,000+.
Renly claimed he had 100,000 men, likely a bit of a fabrication but we'll assume he was telling the truth.
During Robert's rebellion, the Dornish only mustered a force of 10,000 to aid the Iron Throne. Elia was being held captive by Aerys and it is clear they loved Elia so they would have wanted to protect her. Maybe that is all they could muster...

After the North playing a HUGE role in Robert's rebellion, and also in the Greyjoy rebellion. I think their total fighting force would be roughly 40,000. MAX

I never meant that Bolton or Stannis could rally another army of 20,000, only a Stark can do that(most likely Jon IMO). Manderly has a big reserve of fighters, Lady Dustin has quite a few, and House Reed still has as many men, as they did before Robb's war. In one of my former posts, I pointed out that House Reed is considered a "Noble House", ranked in the same category as House Umber, Karstark, Manderly, Dustin, Mormont, Cerwyn, Hornwood, Flint, Ryswell, and Locke. The only Houses ranked higher than those ranked as "Noble Houses" in the North, is House Stark and Bolton, and they are ranked as "Great Houses". Two big Houses in the North that we are fairly familiar with, are House Glover and Talhart, and they are ranked as "Masterly Houses" which is the category below the "Noble Houses". So if House Reed is up there with House Umber, Karstark, Manderly, Mormont etc, I think that must mean that House Reed is just as strong as those Houses. The Neck is also a pretty big area, close to the South, whith lots of game to eat, so I don't think it's to out of the question to speculate that House Reed can offer around 3-5 thousand men, maybe more.


Your Lannister numbers are off, Tywin had an initial army of 30,000, he gave Jaime half of that, and Robb killed and scattered most of Jaime's army. Then there was another army made of 2,000, and Robb defeated them. I can't remember if another army was ever assembled at Casterly Rock, but i am positive the Lannisters never had 70,000 men combined. At the most I would say 40-45 thousand for the Lannisters. The Stormlands have a much smaller army than one might think, so it is accurate to me that the Lannisters can only produce a combined number of around 40,000ish men.

And the Martell's did only send 10,000 spears to the Trident, but it's not like Elia was at the Trident, she was in Kingslanding. I could be wrong, but I thought the other part of the Dornish army was in the Boneway or something. The Martell's might have been saving most of their forces, in case they had to go to Kingslanding to get Elia, I don't know, but they probably didn't expect Elia to be killed. Unfortunately they did not know Aerys would let Tywin and his army into Kingslanding.
I have said this before, Doran Martell admitted that 50,000 spears was an exaggeration, but in order for people to believe that, it can't be to far off. There is also no way Quintyn Martell would tell Dany that Dorne could offer her 50,000 spears, if it was really only half that. So I would say that Dorne most likely has around 40,000 spears.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

King Doug, on 19 April 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

I agree there are more fighting men in the North, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate. But to say that Stannis being able to quickly get 4000 men from the mountain clans is not that solid of an argument. Like I said before, they are a culture that values fighting prowess and most men are likely warriors. They are also probably concentrated into a few villages in the few areas of the moutains that are habitable.

Around 20,000 more fighting men...maybe. But Bolton's army includes the number of Freys. I know the Manderlys still have a good force. But we have no reason to believe Skagos has that many men, nor do we have any reason to believe they don't have more. If you count the wildlings then yes, they will have at least 20,000.

With that said, we are led to believe that Robb brought a large portion of the fighting force with him. We are never given any clue that Stannis or Roose might be able to summon another 20,000+ on a whim. Not only that, We know that Roose Bolton is quite smart. If there truly was another army capable of being raised to oppose him.

Let's be generous and say Manderly has 10,000 men just chillin. There is only one other house that we know has left some men behind (the lady that says she hates the Starks, can't remember which one...Dustin maybe?). But the rest of the houses most likely are just about exhausted. We know the Umbers and Karstarks are just about out of men. Same with the Cerwyns, Glovers, Talharts. The only real question mark is the Reeds. We don't know how many men they have and if they will commit (I believe they will).

A lot of question marks in the remaining forces and I think that to say the North could field an army of 40,000 (including Robb's army) is a bit of a stretch. We know that the Reach has the biggest population because it is in the most fertile lands. And we know that the westerlands are the second most populous. After those two there is a pretty significant difference. Next most populous would be the Riverlands, followed by the Stormlands and North, with Iron Islands and Dorne having the lowest populations.

Tywin was able to have a force of 30,000. And that was with in the West where it would be able to call the banners quickly. Also Jaime commanding 20,000+, and the other army of 20,000 that was decimated by Robb. Thats 70,000+.
Renly claimed he had 100,000 men, likely a bit of a fabrication but we'll assume he was telling the truth.
During Robert's rebellion, the Dornish only mustered a force of 10,000 to aid the Iron Throne. Elia was being held captive by Aerys and it is clear they loved Elia so they would have wanted to protect her. Maybe that is all they could muster...

After the North playing a HUGE role in Robert's rebellion, and also in the Greyjoy rebellion. I think their total fighting force would be roughly 40,000. MAX

Yes, your Lannister numbers are way off.

1.  Tywins host had 20,000
2. Jaime's host had 15,000
3.  Stafford's host at Oxcross numbered 10,000

Lannisters have fielded a total of 45,000 men roughly.  As expected, the Tyrells have fielded the most men at about 70,000 thus far.  And that s not counting the full strength of the Hightowers.

I agree with Ghost also that Dorne can field men closer to 50,000 than not.  If not 50,000 then it would be at least 35,000-40,000.  They only sent 10,000 to the Trident in haste to join Rhaegar, but surely could have fought on if need be.  Additionally, they have two armies that have been ready to go for four book now (one in the Prince's Pass and another on the Boneway).  Having not been touched by the war, the Dornish are poised to do major damage.

Skagos is bigger than the Iron Islands combined and it is universally agreed that the Greyjoy's can field 20,000 to 25,000 men.  Skagos has not been touched by war since they rebelled against the King in North hundreds of years ago.  It stands to reason that they can field a force of at least 5,000 and could be as high as 10,000 (more likely 5,000-6,000) I suppose.

The Frey's sent 2,000 men North to augment Roose Bolton's forces (likely around 4,000).  Throw in Ramsay's 600 along with the Dustin's and Ryswells, and Roose's host is likely as high as 10,000.  Throw in the other Northern Houses of shaky loyalty and it could be higher.  The Rills and the Barrowlands are large areas of the North and situated next to the coast.  This denotes high population areas (especially Barrowtown).  Stannis has 5,000 men (about 3,500 or so are Northmen).  As Ghost said we have not even begun to breakdown the Manderly forces.  He has the only city in the North and controls a good portion of the North in his corner (like a poor man's House Hightower).  Many Northerners have likely fled to White Harbor to survive the war and the coming winter.  Lord Manderly has 50 plus war ships, a dozen petty lords, 100 landed knights, a vault of silver, more heavy horse than any lord North of the Neck and control over other noble of the North.  This man has been preparing to retake the North for a long time and is poised to do serious damage.  Finally, the Neck Houses (crannogmen) have not been touched by the war.  They have played guerilla warfare with ironmen but no more.  All of those houses can add at least another 2-3,000.  

When you look at the facts and do some of the math, the North can easily field another 25,000 to 30,000 men at least.  Even GRRM has confirmed that the North is far from being spent (meaning the North has some major ass to kick before all is said and done).

Edited by Stallion That Mounts Texas, 19 April 2012 - 09:52 PM.

[Ghost714]

Stallion That Mounts Texas, on 19 April 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

Yes, your Lannister numbers are way off.

1.  Tywins host had 20,000
2. Jaime's host had 15,000
3.  Stafford's host at Oxcross numbered 10,000

Lannisters have fielded a total of 45,000 men roughly.  As expected, the Tyrells have fielded the most men at about 70,000 thus far.  And that s not counting the full strength of the Hightowers.

I agree with Ghost also that Dorne can field men closer to 50,000 than not.  If not 50,000 then it would be at least 35,000-40,000.  They only sent 10,000 to the Trident in haste to join Rhaegar, but surely could have fought on if need be.  Additionally, they have two armies that have been ready to go for four book now (one in the Prince's Pass and another on the Boneway).  Having not been touched by the war, the Dornish are poised to do major damage.

Skagos is bigger than the Iron Islands combined and it is universally agreed that the Greyjoy's can field 20,000 to 25,000 men.  Skagos has not been touched by war since they rebelled against the King in North hundreds of years ago.  It stands to reason that they can field a force of at least 5,000 and could be as high as 10,000 (more likely 5,000-6,000) I suppose.

The Frey's sent 2,000 men North to augment Roose Bolton's forces (likely around 4,000).  Throw in Ramsay's 600 along with the Dustin's and Ryswells, and Roose's host is likely as high as 10,000.  Throw in the other Northern Houses of shaky loyalty and it could be higher.  The Rills and the Barrowlands are large areas of the North and situated next to the coast.  This denotes high population areas (especially Barrowtown).  Stannis has 5,000 men (about 3,500 or so are Northmen).  As Ghost said we have not even begun to breakdown the Manderly forces.  He has the only city in the North and controls a good portion of the North in his corner (like a poor man's House Hightower).  Many Northerners have likely fled to White Harbor to survive the war and the coming winter.  Lord Manderly has 50 plus war ships, a dozen petty lords, 100 landed knights, a vault of silver, more heavy horse than any lord North of the Neck and control over other noble of the North.  This man has been preparing to retake the North for a long time and is poised to do serious damage.  Finally, the Neck Houses (crannogmen) have not been touched by the war.  They have played guerilla warfare with ironmen but no more.  All of those houses can add at least another 2-3,000.  

When you look at the facts and do some of the math, the North can easily field another 25,000 to 30,000 men at least.  Even GRRM has confirmed that the North is far from being spent (meaning the North has some major ass to kick before all is said and done).

I could not agree more with this. The Skagosi were probably biting off more than they could chew, when the rebelled agains Winterfell, just like with the Iron Islands. However the fact that the Skagosi tried to rebel at all suggests that they must be able to come up with a fairly large amount of fighters. I think 5,000-8,000 fighting men is a good guess for Skagos, especially when considering that Skagos is bigger than all the Iron Islands combined. The Skagosi also seem to always be fighting each other, like with the Mountain Clans. So a higher percentage of their people probably grow up to be fighters, just like the Ironborn and Mountain Clans. So even though Skagos might not be densely populated, that does not mean they can't come up with a large army.

I also think House Reed can produce anywhere from 3-5 thousand guerilla style fighters.

[King Doug]

Again, I was just playing devil's advocate to begin with. But I'm 93.5% sure Tywin's army (after he gave Jaime an army) was still 30,000. I loaned my books out so I can't look it up, not to mention I'm too lazy to do that anyway. When they were planning to lift the siege on Riverrun I'm pretty sure it was said that Jaime's army outnumbered them as a whole, but had to be divided into three to effectively lay siege to the castle. And the army that the other Lannister raised at Oxcross (Stefford or Stafford Lannister I think) was about 20,000 although it was composed of green boys and hired swords. The Lannisters had a total of AT LEAST 60,000.

Yes, its not unreasonable to think that Skagos has 3-5,000 men, maybe more. But they are never going to send everyone. Especially since they didn't send anyone when Robb called the banners. Politically, I think of them just like the Iron Islands. Completely autonomous and can really do whatever they want since they have no real relevance to Westeros, which is likely why Osha chose to take Rickon there. But saying that Bolton has 10,000 strong right now is an exaggeration. Besides, one of you said they fight eachother constantly. That would make it difficult for a Stark to unite them, but much more difficult for a Stark child and Hand of the King to someone that has never sat the throne. Like I said before, they wouldn't send their whole fighting force anyway.

Bolton led an army comprised mostly of his men against Tywin at the Green Fork and was crushed.  Combined Freys, Boltons, small contingent of Umbers/Dustins/Ryswells/Manderlys they MAYBE have 7,000, with the Freys and Manderlys riding towards Stannis, so that immediately shrinks that number by 2-2800. I'll have to re-read the Theon teaser chapter in WoW to confirm but no way the Boltons have near 10,000 in Winterfell right now.

Like I said before, House Reed is definitely the x-factor. We have no idea how many men they have but to estimate they have as many as the Mormonts or Umbers based on what the wiki classifies their house as is a little weak. They live in the neck in the swamplands. That can't support a great number of people. But again, we simply don't know. 3-5000 is not unreasonable, although it would likely be closer to 3000, and keep in mind they would need to keep a good number at the neck as scouts and to protect against a possibly incursion from a southern army.

So with many of the 'masterly and noble' houses (as the wiki likes to put it) already about exhausted, I think it woudl be difficult to find 20,000 men able to wield a sword in a decent fashion.