235 replies to this topic

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

King Doug, on 20 April 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

Again, I was just playing devil's advocate to begin with. But I'm 93.5% sure Tywin's army (after he gave Jaime an army) was still 30,000. I loaned my books out so I can't look it up, not to mention I'm too lazy to do that anyway. When they were planning to lift the siege on Riverrun I'm pretty sure it was said that Jaime's army outnumbered them as a whole, but had to be divided into three to effectively lay siege to the castle. And the army that the other Lannister raised at Oxcross (Stefford or Stafford Lannister I think) was about 20,000 although it was composed of green boys and hired swords. The Lannisters had a total of AT LEAST 60,000.

Yes, its not unreasonable to think that Skagos has 3-5,000 men, maybe more. But they are never going to send everyone. Especially since they didn't send anyone when Robb called the banners. Politically, I think of them just like the Iron Islands. Completely autonomous and can really do whatever they want since they have no real relevance to Westeros, which is likely why Osha chose to take Rickon there. But saying that Bolton has 10,000 strong right now is an exaggeration. Besides, one of you said they fight eachother constantly. That would make it difficult for a Stark to unite them, but much more difficult for a Stark child and Hand of the King to someone that has never sat the throne. Like I said before, they wouldn't send their whole fighting force anyway.

Bolton led an army comprised mostly of his men against Tywin at the Green Fork and was crushed.  Combined Freys, Boltons, small contingent of Umbers/Dustins/Ryswells/Manderlys they MAYBE have 7,000, with the Freys and Manderlys riding towards Stannis, so that immediately shrinks that number by 2-2800. I'll have to re-read the Theon teaser chapter in WoW to confirm but no way the Boltons have near 10,000 in Winterfell right now.

Like I said before, House Reed is definitely the x-factor. We have no idea how many men they have but to estimate they have as many as the Mormonts or Umbers based on what the wiki classifies their house as is a little weak. They live in the neck in the swamplands. That can't support a great number of people. But again, we simply don't know. 3-5000 is not unreasonable, although it would likely be closer to 3000, and keep in mind they would need to keep a good number at the neck as scouts and to protect against a possibly incursion from a southern army.

So with many of the 'masterly and noble' houses (as the wiki likes to put it) already about exhausted, I think it woudl be difficult to find 20,000 men able to wield a sword in a decent fashion.

Your Lannister numbers are just way off...you'll have to go back to the books to confirm for yourself, but the Lannisters never had more than 45,000 in the field total:

1. Tyrion puts his father's army at 20,000 when he arrives with the mountain clans
2. Robb's scouts put Jaime's army (split in three) at 12-15,000 (outnumbering Robb 3 to 1)
3. Catelyn gets the size of Stafford's army at Oxcross as 10,000 when she is returning from the Reach after Renly's death

I fully expect Skagos to rally around Rickon and send at least 5,000.  No one knows what the island has been up to sense The King in the North put down their rebellion and brought them under the control of House Stark.  It is true that they have mostly been left to their own devices and did not send troops to Robb.  However, with the Manderly fleet, they now have the means to send a significant amount of their forces to the mainland.  To be able to rebel and threaten the Starks, you must have a significant force at your disposal.  

From ADWD we know that only 2 in 10 of the original host of 20,000 has returned North.  These are all forces loyal to Roose Bolton.  Doing the math, only 20% of the 20,000 has returned, leaving Roose with a force of 4,000 Northman.  The Freys sent 2,000 of their bannerman North to back up Roose.  That's already 6,000.  We know Roose left a garrison of 600 to man the Dreadfort.  Ramsay lost no more than 30 or so assaulting Winterfell.  He likely found more among the Bolton vassals (they control a pretty good size territory and their lands sit along side the Weeping Water).  Throw in the hosts from the Rills and the Barrowlands (Two pretty big Northern areas located next to water) and it is easy to imagine Roose already being over 10,000.  Both Lady Dustin and the Ryswells did not send very many men to Robb at the start.  We know they have also been crushing ironmen left in the North.  I envision both of these houses being able to sent at least 2,000 men.  Now throw in all of the other houses of the North of shaky loyalty with Roose and you can see why he could afford to sacrifice the Freys and Manderlys.  The best part of his forces are safe behind the walls of Winterfell and there are less mouths to feed.

[Free Northman]

Jon told Stannis that he could get 2000-3000 men quickly from the Hill Clans.

The Hill Clans live in the northernmost and most inhospitable region in the entire North. Go any further north, and you hit the Wall. So if they have 2000-3000 left, then more populated and more fertile areas in the rest of the North would have far more left. The lands of the Manderlys, the Barrowlands and the Rills are almost 1000 miles south of the lands of the Hill Clans. They must have 5-10 times the population density of these rugged mountain tribes.

It comes back to the population size thing. The North probably has in excess of a million able bodied men of fighting age. The size of an army is not limited by the number of living men, but by the resources available to support them when they gather into an army.

The loss of 18,000 men won't suddenly depopulate the North. Neither will the loss of 180,000 men. But the need to find armor, weapons, food and supplies for another army, that's the limiting factor.

Medieval England had 2 million people, and the North is 20 times the size of medieval England.

Edited by Free Northman, 20 April 2012 - 01:07 PM.

[Ghost714]

King Doug, on 20 April 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

Again, I was just playing devil's advocate to begin with. But I'm 93.5% sure Tywin's army (after he gave Jaime an army) was still 30,000. I loaned my books out so I can't look it up, not to mention I'm too lazy to do that anyway. When they were planning to lift the siege on Riverrun I'm pretty sure it was said that Jaime's army outnumbered them as a whole, but had to be divided into three to effectively lay siege to the castle. And the army that the other Lannister raised at Oxcross (Stefford or Stafford Lannister I think) was about 20,000 although it was composed of green boys and hired swords. The Lannisters had a total of AT LEAST 60,000.

Yes, its not unreasonable to think that Skagos has 3-5,000 men, maybe more. But they are never going to send everyone. Especially since they didn't send anyone when Robb called the banners. Politically, I think of them just like the Iron Islands. Completely autonomous and can really do whatever they want since they have no real relevance to Westeros, which is likely why Osha chose to take Rickon there. But saying that Bolton has 10,000 strong right now is an exaggeration. Besides, one of you said they fight eachother constantly. That would make it difficult for a Stark to unite them, but much more difficult for a Stark child and Hand of the King to someone that has never sat the throne. Like I said before, they wouldn't send their whole fighting force anyway.

Bolton led an army comprised mostly of his men against Tywin at the Green Fork and was crushed.  Combined Freys, Boltons, small contingent of Umbers/Dustins/Ryswells/Manderlys they MAYBE have 7,000, with the Freys and Manderlys riding towards Stannis, so that immediately shrinks that number by 2-2800. I'll have to re-read the Theon teaser chapter in WoW to confirm but no way the Boltons have near 10,000 in Winterfell right now.

Like I said before, House Reed is definitely the x-factor. We have no idea how many men they have but to estimate they have as many as the Mormonts or Umbers based on what the wiki classifies their house as is a little weak. They live in the neck in the swamplands. That can't support a great number of people. But again, we simply don't know. 3-5000 is not unreasonable, although it would likely be closer to 3000, and keep in mind they would need to keep a good number at the neck as scouts and to protect against a possibly incursion from a southern army.

So with many of the 'masterly and noble' houses (as the wiki likes to put it) already about exhausted, I think it woudl be difficult to find 20,000 men able to wield a sword in a decent fashion.

"Stallion That Mounts Texas" replied to your post perfectly, that's exactly what I would say about the Lannister army, and Roose's army. I also agree with what the posted about Skaggos. I will also add that Skaggos is an island, pretty far away, it could be that Robb did not have time to wait for them, or Robb might not have summoned them at all. However I can see them rallying behind Rickon for sure. If they don't send men with Rickon, I can't imagine they will refuse to send men, when it comes to forming an army to go man the Wall, to fight the Others. Surely they have heard about the Others by now, from all the fleeing Wildlings, and Osha.

I will also respond to your post about the Cronnogmen. I actually think that the Neck is capapable of supporting a fairly large number of people. The Neck is a very large area, and it's about as close to being in the South as it gets for the North. There also seems to be enough game in the Neck to support a large amount of people. It actually reminds me of that show on the History channel(in America, I don't know if it's on in other Countries), called "Swamp people". This show is about people who live in the swamps of Louisiana I believe, and in this show there is tons of game life, these people are always pulling boat loads of food out of the swamps, alligators, crowlfish etc... So I imagine something similar when I think of the Neck. People always make it seem like you will get eatin by a lizard lion if you step foot in the Neck, so that probably means there is a lot of alligator type things in the Neck, which is food for a lot of people. So with the size of the Neck, and it being so close to the South, I have no trouble believing there is around 5,000 Cronnogmen living there, capable of fighting, and I know not all of them could leave the Neck, but still.
It's also not just House Reed in the Neck, there is also Houses Blackmyre, Boggs, Cray, Fenn, Greengood, Marsh, Peat, and Quagg, and there may be more that we do not know about yet. I also don't see why the Wiki would put House Reed with all those other Noble Houses, if House Reed was no where near the equivalent of those Houses.

[King Doug]

Ghost714, on 20 April 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

"Stallion That Mounts Texas" replied to your post perfectly, that's exactly what I would say about the Lannister army, and Roose's army. I also agree with what the posted about Skaggos. I will also add that Skaggos is an island, pretty far away, it could be that Robb did not have time to wait for them, or Robb might not have summoned them at all. However I can see them rallying behind Rickon for sure. If they don't send men with Rickon, I can't imagine they will refuse to send men, when it comes to forming an army to go man the Wall, to fight the Others. Surely they have heard about the Others by now, from all the fleeing Wildlings, and Osha.

I will also respond to your post about the Cronnogmen. I actually think that the Neck is capapable of supporting a fairly large number of people. The Neck is a very large area, and it's about as close to being in the South as it gets for the North. There also seems to be enough game in the Neck to support a large amount of people. It actually reminds me of that show on the History channel(in America, I don't know if it's on in other Countries), called "Swamp people". This show is about people who live in the swamps of Louisiana I believe, and in this show there is tons of game life, these people are always pulling boat loads of food out of the swamps, alligators, crowlfish etc... So I imagine something similar when I think of the Neck. People always make it seem like you will get eatin by a lizard lion if you step foot in the Neck, so that probably means there is a lot of alligator type things in the Neck, which is food for a lot of people. So with the size of the Neck, and it being so close to the South, I have no trouble believing there is around 5,000 Cronnogmen living there, capable of fighting, and I know not all of them could leave the Neck, but still.
It's also not just House Reed in the Neck, there is also Houses Blackmyre, Boggs, Cray, Fenn, Greengood, Marsh, Peat, and Quagg, and there may be more that we do not know about yet. I also don't see why the Wiki would put House Reed with all those other Noble Houses, if House Reed was no where near the equivalent of those Houses.

I just assumed that the term 'Noble' house or 'Masterly' house is simply a matter of prestige, not necessarily there population. But I'm not sure what would makes the classification.

[King Doug]

Free Northman, on 20 April 2012 - 01:03 PM, said:

Jon told Stannis that he could get 2000-3000 men quickly from the Hill Clans.

The Hill Clans live in the northernmost and most inhospitable region in the entire North. Go any further north, and you hit the Wall. So if they have 2000-3000 left, then more populated and more fertile areas in the rest of the North would have far more left. The lands of the Manderlys, the Barrowlands and the Rills are almost 1000 miles south of the lands of the Hill Clans. They must have 5-10 times the population density of these rugged mountain tribes.

It comes back to the population size thing. The North probably has in excess of a million able bodied men of fighting age. The size of an army is not limited by the number of living men, but by the resources available to support them when they gather into an army.

The loss of 18,000 men won't suddenly depopulate the North. Neither will the loss of 180,000 men. But the need to find armor, weapons, food and supplies for another army, that's the limiting factor.

Medieval England had 2 million people, and the North is 20 times the size of medieval England.

This is one of the things I flat out disagree with. In medieval times it was hard enough for a woman to survive childbirth and hard enough for a child to survive infancy. Not to mention the coming winter in Westeros. And big wars always effect the population. Especially when you have multiple major wars in the same generation or one generation after the other. I'm not saying the Greyjoy rebellion was a major war (for the North at least, it may have been for the Lannisters and Riverlands) but Robert's Rebellion and the War of the Five Kings are definitely major wars. Not only will it have a negative impact on the overall population, but also a huge impact on military power. A perfect example of this is Europe in the 20th century. After both world wars it took 2 generations to re-populate, and that was in more modern times. Medieval societies would feel the impact of de-population because of warfare much more.

I agree when you say the North is larger than England and also your population density arguments about the mountain clans. But the books have led us to believe that the North is sparsely populated and really has no major cities other than White Harbor. We can't really assume that they have that many more people than medieval England due to their size, when we are told that it is sparsely populated. Even though they likely have some more.

Throughout history, a nation's military is normally about 1% of its population, some cultures a little more, some a little less. The 18,000 that Robb took south is comprised of the most combat ready soldiers, which would be equivalent to modern day active duty military. Let's account for soldiers left behind from various houses/clans for whatever reasons. And I'll be generous in those numbers. Lets say an additional 25,000 men are armed and ready to fight. I'll round that up to 45,000. Thats about 4.5 million people. Again, I think I was quite generous in the size of the army.

Like you said before, getting beyond that 1% sized army, is not a matter of finding men of age and skill. It's a matter of arming them. And we are told the North is not rich, outside of the Manderlys. Really the only hope of arming another good sized army is Stannis's credit from the Iron Bank.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The whole depopulation thing is true only for wars where the civil population gets involved. Germany in the War of the thirty years or the modern conventional wars with carpet bombing on cities. In the War of the Five Kings that is true for the Riverlands and maybe the Westerlands. But not the North. Neither Roberts Rebellion nor the War of the Five Kings had a serious impact on the civil population of the North. And that's why they can quickly replace their losses.

[King Doug]

Bright Blue Eyes, on 21 April 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

The whole depopulation thing is true only for wars where the civil population gets involved. Germany in the War of the thirty years or the modern conventional wars with carpet bombing on cities. In the War of the Five Kings that is true for the Riverlands and maybe the Westerlands. But not the North. Neither Roberts Rebellion nor the War of the Five Kings had a serious impact on the civil population of the North. And that's why they can quickly replace their losses.

I agree, my argument is based on them losing a lot of men in three wars. All of which in one generation of people. The impact would be felt for sure, especially in the military. Like mentioned before by Free Northman, the problem isn't really finding men, it's arming them

[Black Crow]

To a certain extent even arming them isn't really a problem. All you need to do is negotiate a loan with an accomodating banker, use the cash to buy the necessary hardware in Essos, ship it across and Bob's your Uncle. The real problem is moving and feeding your army. As I've just been saying on another thread the men who went south at the start probably represented no more than a quarter of the young and unattached able-bodied. Those left behind, plus those too old or too young for active campaigning still represent a sizable resource, but...

That first levy has not only taken the best of the men and the best of the equipment, its also taken packhorses and wagons that can't be easily replaced in a hurry and its also taken the leaders and experienced captains. Yes you can get the men but there's a very noticeable falling off in both quality and enthusiasm. Then as the war bites there's another factor. Voluntary recruiting actually rises, because its easier to survive as an armed soldier than as a peasant being ridden over by every rascal with a horse, but that in turn causes other problems. If as during the 30Years war peasants turn soldiers, they're not tilling the land, so crops get scarcer and the army gets harder to feed, and it also gets harder still if said peasant brings his wife and children with him, adding yet more mouths.

What all of this means is that for all practical purposes manpower is an almost infinite resource, but instead of armies of well trained ad equipped fighting men, the war is going to increasingly be fought by robber bands. This doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to be useless. Surviving in this kind of war demands a certain degree of cunning and resilience and I still have a very strong suspicion that if the knights of the Vale ever come out to play in their bright shiny armour, the filthy hard men who pass for soldiers outside the Vale will tear them apart. It just won't be pretty.

[King Doug]

Keeping a good supply chain and feeding your army is a whole other issue that is quite huge. I think you are downplaying the ability of the Northern men to get a loan. Manderly could probably obtain such a loan or even pay to arm his army himself. Outside of him, what bank would give that kind of loan to someone who won't be able to pay it back.

And also I agree there are plenty of able bodied men to pick up a sword. The discussion started as how many soldiers the North actually had already available, in addition to the 18,000 Robb took. I did mention that once you get beyond the everyday soldier, quality of swordsman begins to drop. But you still raise the issue that I didn't really think of, and that was their ability to replace things like wagons and horses. That too will be quite expensive and time consuming.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

King Doug, on 21 April 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

Keeping a good supply chain and feeding your army is a whole other issue that is quite huge. I think you are downplaying the ability of the Northern men to get a loan. Manderly could probably obtain such a loan or even pay to arm his army himself. Outside of him, what bank would give that kind of loan to someone who won't be able to pay it back.

You may wish to read the sample chapter.

And all in all, I guess that there are still about 40,000 men with enough discipline and arms to be called soldiers available for recruiting, based on all the numbers we are already given.

[jon rr stark]

The issue of recruiting becomes easier if you take account of the populations feeling as to returning a stark to winterfell rather than a bolton. Also there is the issue of revenge for the red wedding, possibly 10,000 men died there, leaves plenty of relatives and villages wanting revenge. The fighting is most likely to be on their own turf now that winter has come and also looks like it will be north of the wall against the others as well. If they survive all that then stannis might have his 20,000 sellswords if the action moves south.
So 20,000 to do battle with the wildings v the others perhaps north of the wall. add 20,000 sellswords to go south. Perhaps the vale will then show its hand and add to these forces. 60,000 troops a mixture of battle hardened and fresh well armed. Robert and Ned won the trident and the kingdom with 40,000 on the trident.
The benchmark must be the mountain clans which can raise 4000 in a week or so without any preperation. Manderley has 100 barges (or 50?) well prepared and probably at least 8000 troops who have been training for the past year or more.
In comparsion to the other forces which they might face the Lannisters have had their best armies in the field for a long time and they have suffered a lot of defeats, so will have lost the best of their standing army. Then there is highgarden which seems to have a history of playing politics rather than fighting, The stormlords must surely revert to Stannis if he does survive long enough to come south if he can show he has defended the realm first before personal power at the wall.
Lot of unknowns and speculation but there are enough Northern troops to carry the fight, at least enough with riverrun and the vale.
The key thing is its winter, whatever happens I cant see any southern force attempting to go north to attack any northern army.

[Free Northman]

Regarding the depopulation issue, I agree with Bright Blue Eyes and Black Crow.

The loss of men due to hunger during a single Winter probably outnumbers the combined war losses in the Robert's Rebellion and the War of Five Kings hugely.

As I said on another thread, the North's population is overwhelmingly rural - more so than any of the other Kingdoms. The vast majority of people live in small villages and small holdfasts.

So even if you only have 1 small village in every 100 square miles, that would still give you about 12,000 such villages across the entire North. Hence, if each village just has 1 extra man they can send off to war, that gives you an extra 12,000 men overnight.

If each village has 5 extra men, well, that gives you another 60,000 men.

And as Winter approaches, and no more harvesting or planting can be done, well, what else are these men going to be doing, other than sitting around eating and drinking? Might as well pack them off to war to make themselves useful.

[King Doug]

Ok we might have to agree to disagree on the number of available troops. If there are that many more available, though, there are a couple questions that brings up.
1.) Why didn't Robb have Rodrik Cassel or some Lord begin assembling another army with those troops? It could be used for anything; to reinforce the current army, simple homeland defense, or another force that the Lannisters would have to contend with.

2.) If the North had enough men to have another army, I think it would be somewhat common knowledge among their foes. If they had that many soldiers then I don't think Balon Greyjoy would have been so quick to decide to attack the North.

[Northern light]

King Doug, on 26 April 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

Ok we might have to agree to disagree on the number of available troops. If there are that many more available, though, there are a couple questions that brings up.
1.) Why didn't Robb have Rodrik Cassel or some Lord begin assembling another army with those troops? It could be used for anything; to reinforce the current army, simple homeland defense, or another force that the Lannisters would have to contend with.

2.) If the North had enough men to have another army, I think it would be somewhat common knowledge among their foes. If they had that many soldiers then I don't think Balon Greyjoy would have been so quick to decide to attack the North.

1. To what use? Robb didn't need any more soldiers at that point (Rodrik Cassel says to Bran in A Clash of Kings that Robb will send messages if he need more soldiers), and when he needed more soldiers (in Storm) he couldn't get them due to the Iron men controlling the Moat. Raising another host which isn't necessary just cost resources.

2. Well, the problem for a Northern host to defend the the whole western coast is illustrated in Clash when Rodrik runs around trying to fight Iron Men at different places.

[E-Ro]

Sorry for the thread ressurect, but i dont fully understand how the north the largest of the seven kingdoms by far can only muster 20,000 men while all the other kingdoms can seemingly get 30,000+ were are all the northmen? does the north only use proffesional men at arms and the other kingdoms use peasent levies? When I read about stannis scooping up those hill tribes i was suprised, why did'nt these guys go south with robb they could have made a huge difference at the green fork were roose bolton was outnumberd by 4 thousand. perhaps these extra men could have caused bolton to defeat tywin, turning an indesisive battle into a game changer.

[King Doug]

E-Ro, on 04 June 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

Sorry for the thread ressurect, but i dont fully understand how the north the largest of the seven kingdoms by far can only muster 20,000 men while all the other kingdoms can seemingly get 30,000+ were are all the northmen? does the north only use proffesional men at arms and the other kingdoms use peasent levies? When I read about stannis scooping up those hill tribes i was suprised, why did'nt these guys go south with robb they could have made a huge difference at the green fork were roose bolton was outnumberd by 4 thousand. perhaps these extra men could have caused bolton to defeat tywin, turning an indesisive battle into a game changer.

In the case of the hill clans, I'm sure it was a communication issue. Had they received word to assemble at Winterfell, I'm sure they would have since they seemed to have loved Ned Stark. But I doubt there are ravens that can find them if they don't have a keep/castle.

But we are told many times throughout the books that the North is very sparsely populated. I think a lot of the armies in Westeros are the equivalent of peasant levies. I'm sure the North could have raised another 10,000 (give or take a few thousand) if they weren't in a hurry and if Robb had the FULL support of all his bannerman. But we see that the Dustins and Ryswells did not fully support him purposefully from the get-go. And also the Reeds didn't seem to supply anything (although I don't think they have much to offer being in the swamplands) and the Manderlys seem to be holding on to a good deal of strength for whatever reason.

There are many threads about populations and army sizes in Westeros. However, I think that GRRM has been purposely ambiguous about these types of things so he doesn't have to care about it. Just like he is ambiguous with distances and travel times and whatnot.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

E-Ro, on 04 June 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

Sorry for the thread ressurect, but i dont fully understand how the north the largest of the seven kingdoms by far can only muster 20,000 men while all the other kingdoms can seemingly get 30,000+ were are all the northmen? does the north only use proffesional men at arms and the other kingdoms use peasent levies? When I read about stannis scooping up those hill tribes i was suprised, why did'nt these guys go south with robb they could have made a huge difference at the green fork were roose bolton was outnumberd by 4 thousand. perhaps these extra men could have caused bolton to defeat tywin, turning an indesisive battle into a game changer.

You may wish to read the entire thread, most of the points are already covered. The North prior to to the War of the Five Kings is estimated at 50,000-60,000 men, ranking second together with the Lannisters (Tyrells being number one). But it is severely hampered by time and distance.
For example, the hill clans are several hundred (maybe even a thousand) miles from the next rookery, through harsh country. Just getting the message to them would take a month, not counting the time to gather them up and marching them south to Moat Cailin. During the same time, the Lannisters could march from Casterly Rock to Riverrun and back again several times over.

[DurararaFTW]

Bright Blue Eyes, on 21 April 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

The whole depopulation thing is true only for wars where the civil population gets involved. Germany in the War of the thirty years or the modern conventional wars with carpet bombing on cities. In the War of the Five Kings that is true for the Riverlands and maybe the Westerlands. But not the North. Neither Roberts Rebellion nor the War of the Five Kings had a serious impact on the civil population of the North. And that's why they can quickly replace their losses.

North HAS been attacked. Deepwood Motte was taken down by Asha, the regiment left by Robb at Moat Cailin was taken down by Victarion. Dagmar took down the town of Torrhen's Square, Ramsay took down Hornwood, Winterfell, and most fighting men that could be assembled from Castle Cerwyn, Stony Shore has been repeadably hit by the Ironborn. Ironborn and the Ramsay aren't the most benevolent of overlords either. They probably burned down most of they could get their hands on. Karhold and last Hearth haven't been hit but by Alys and Theon's testimony, they gave as much men to the war as they could possibly spare, and in the case of the Karstarks maybe more. White Harbour and Barrowton are still in good shape. They are the exception rather then the rule though. I dunno why people think the Westerlands are so muich heavier hit. Robb took the Crag, Goldon Tooth? And then left. He didn't get even remotely far.

Edited by DurararaFTW, 05 June 2012 - 07:26 AM.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

DurararaFTW, on 05 June 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

North HAS been attacked. Deepwood Motte was taken down by Asha, the regiment left by Robb at Moat Cailin was taken down by Victarion. Dagmar took down the town of Torrhen's Square, Ramsay took down Hornwood, Winterfell, and most fighting men that could be assembled from Castle Cerwyn, Stony Shore has been repeadably hit by the Ironborn. Ironborn and the Ramsay aren't the most benevolent of overlords either. They probably burned down most of they could get their hands on. Karhold and last Hearth haven't been hit but by Alys and Theon's testimony, they gave as much men to the war as they could possibly spare, and in the case of the Karstarks maybe more. White Harbour and Barrowton are still in good shape. They are the exception rather then the rule though. I dunno why people think the Westerlands are so muich heavier hit. Robb took the Crag, Goldon Tooth? And then left. He didn't get even remotely far.

Nope, Manderly did it to prevent Ramsay from taking it. His withdrawal from Hornwood lands is one of the conditions to make peace with Roose

[E-Ro]

Bright Blue Eyes, on 05 June 2012 - 06:59 AM, said:

You may wish to read the entire thread, most of the points are already covered. The North prior to to the War of the Five Kings is estimated at 50,000-60,000 men, ranking second together with the Lannisters (Tyrells being number one). But it is severely hampered by time and distance.
For example, the hill clans are several hundred (maybe even a thousand) miles from the next rookery, through harsh country. Just getting the message to them would take a month, not counting the time to gather them up and marching them south to Moat Cailin. During the same time, the Lannisters could march from Casterly Rock to Riverrun and back again several times over.

Ok, I just finished reading the whole thread and I guess my questions were kind of answered. but there seem to be two factions those who think the north can get 50,000 and those who think only about 30,000 both sides seem to have good points. Was the north really hit that hard by the ironborn? Why does manderly have so many men? Why did rob not send a message to raise more men? It would have been the simplest thing to send a raven and lord mallisters ships.