235 replies to this topic

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Young Wolf, on 06 June 2012 - 09:21 AM, said:

btw Ramsay didn't kill Donella Hornwood, starvation did

Yep, just as Ilyn Payne didn't kill Ned Stark, that evil greatsword Ice did. No single Frey killed anyone at the Red Wedding, why, it was only their spears and swords and knifes. How can anyone say Lannister soldiers killed Masha Heddle? They just hanged her, it was asphyxiation that killed her...

You have proved that if you feel like it, you can offer valuable insights and interesting opinions several times. I would much rather read them than this childishness.

[Matthew Marzolf]

Ser Coffee The Bold, on 08 August 2011 - 04:14 PM, said:

But remember how just a few hundred Greek spearmen threw back a Persian army?

It was more than a few hundred. Several thousand actually. That movie took quite a bit of artistic liberty....

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

The Dornishman, on 06 June 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

Yep, just as Ilyn Payne didn't kill Ned Stark, that evil greatsword Ice did. No single Frey killed anyone at the Red Wedding, why, it was only their spears and swords and knifes. How can anyone say Lannister soldiers killed Masha Heddle? They just hanged her, it was asphyxiation that killed her...

You have proved that if you feel like it, you can offer valuable insights and interesting opinions several times. I would much rather read them than this childishness.

I'm often said it's part of my boyish charm

Dornishman, relax man or you'll get a stroke (it would be a damn shame). I didn't mean to sound (or type) facetious. All I wanted to say is that he didn't kill her personally (and she isn't the one whose body Reek raped as stated by someone at this forum) - it even might have been order from Roose as far as we know

[Septon Meribald]

Let's calm down on the attacks. No one is trying to excuse the man who locked someone in a tower without food of not being responsible for her death. He's just saying that the act of doing so precludes that woman from being the body that was being raped by that man in the forest later.

The point of all this though, as I said earlier is that there were no real attacks on the Hornwood lands or their people. Other than being lordless they are no worse off.

To go back to the Ironmen-North interactions, Theon had eight ships most of which continued to harry the sparsely populated Stony Shore and the rest of which the men are divided between those who died at Winterfell and those that took Torhen's Square with Dagmer. Asha had twenty ships she used them to seize Deepwood Motte and nothing else to our knowledge. If she wanted to rule the castle it would do her very little good to send these men then out to individual farmsteads and holdfasts killing all the people that would be feeding her and her army. The Iron Fleet sailed to Moat Cailin and held it, that's all. When Balon died everyone but small garrison forces left. Most did not return and instead went with Euron.

Balon's attack on the North was poorly conceived and poorly enacted and the North was not much worse off after it. Roose and Ramsay Bolton have killed far more Northmen than all the Greyjoys combined.

[jarl the climber]

I actually wrote a lenghty post about this the other day that got lost. The main points were that Theon started off by raiding the Stony Shore to draw out some of the garrisons left in the North. Vic took Moat Cailin while Asha took Deepwood Motte, a strong force at Deepwood would prevent some of the NW Lords from sending men to retake moat Cailin as they had to defend themselves from reavers based in the Sea Dragon Point area. I think that Asha only used a third of the men she had to seize the castle, the others were either guarding the ships or at sea actively raiding at times. The Ironborn wanted to force Robb to move North and fight them at Moat Cailin, where they have the advantage of holding the fortress. Asha and Theon were supposed to tie down the forces in the North and keep them from attacking Vic from the North. It was a stupid plan only Boltons betrayal and the fighting over the Hornwood lands and Theons seizure of Winterfell that kept Cassel from doing this, Ashas force were to remote to pose any kind of threat and winter would probaly have caused her to abandon her posistion in the long run.

[Northern light]

I'm siding with Black Crow on this issue. The problem for the North isn't available men it's resources to equip and feed a large army.

[King Doug]

No doubt supplying more men is probably the bigger issue, but I think finding men is an issue as well

[Prince Doran Martell]

If I had to guess, I would say that if Robb took about a year to muster all available forces he could have marched south with over 30,000 men, maybe as many as 35,000 or a little more. That would be with leaving skeleton garrisons at all the northern strongholds.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

Prince Doran Martell, on 09 June 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

If I had to guess, I would say that if Robb took about a year to muster all available forces he could have marched south with over 30,000 men, maybe as many as 35,000 or a little more. That would be with leaving skeleton garrisons at all the northern strongholds.

He marched with 20 000 gathered between Eddard's imprisonment and execution

If he had a year of peace to gather his forces, he would have reached KL in no time

[E-Ro]

Prince Doran Martell, on 09 June 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

If I had to guess, I would say that if Robb took about a year to muster all available forces he could have marched south with over 30,000 men, maybe as many as 35,000 or a little more. That would be with leaving skeleton garrisons at all the northern strongholds.

Free Northman, on 20 April 2012 - 01:03 PM, said:

Jon told Stannis that he could get 2000-3000 men quickly from the Hill Clans.

The Hill Clans live in the northernmost and most inhospitable region in the entire North. Go any further north, and you hit the Wall. So if they have 2000-3000 left, then more populated and more fertile areas in the rest of the North would have far more left. The lands of the Manderlys, the Barrowlands and the Rills are almost 1000 miles south of the lands of the Hill Clans. They must have 5-10 times the population density of these rugged mountain tribes.

It comes back to the population size thing. The North probably has in excess of a million able bodied men of fighting age. The size of an army is not limited by the number of living men, but by the resources available to support them when they gather into an army.

The loss of 18,000 men won't suddenly depopulate the North. Neither will the loss of 180,000 men. But the need to find armor, weapons, food and supplies for another army, that's the limiting factor.

Medieval England had 2 million people, and the North is 20 times the size of medieval England.

If robb had a year to gather the full might of the north he would have went south with 45,000 up men. And the garrisons left behind would be at full strength. All they need is more time.

[DurararaFTW]

Young Wolf, on 06 June 2012 - 11:06 AM, said:

I'm often said it's part of my boyish charm

Dornishman, relax man or you'll get a stroke (it would be a damn shame). I didn't mean to sound (or type) facetious. All I wanted to say is that he didn't kill her personally (and she isn't the one whose body Reek raped as stated by someone at this forum) - it even might have been order from Roose as far as we know

Septon Meribald, on 06 June 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

Let's calm down on the attacks. No one is trying to excuse the man who locked someone in a tower without food of not being responsible for her death. He's just saying that the act of doing so precludes that woman from being the body that was being raped by that man in the forest later.

Okay, Ser Rodrik did attack them at some place that wasn't Dreadfort, and Lady Hornwood was dead just affter marrying Ramsay and Reek was raping some woman's corpse, and Rodrik did end up assuming Reek is Ramsay after killing him so guess I got the facts connected the wrong way in my head, sorry bout that

jarl the climber, on 06 June 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

I actually wrote a lenghty post about this the other day that got lost. The main points were that Theon started off by raiding the Stony Shore to draw out some of the garrisons left in the North. Vic took Moat Cailin while Asha took Deepwood Motte, a strong force at Deepwood would prevent some of the NW Lords from sending men to retake moat Cailin as they had to defend themselves from reavers based in the Sea Dragon Point area. I think that Asha only used a third of the men she had to seize the castle, the others were either guarding the ships or at sea actively raiding at times. The Ironborn wanted to force Robb to move North and fight them at Moat Cailin, where they have the advantage of holding the fortress. Asha and Theon were supposed to tie down the forces in the North and keep them from attacking Vic from the North. It was a stupid plan only Boltons betrayal and the fighting over the Hornwood lands and Theons seizure of Winterfell that kept Cassel from doing this, Ashas force were to remote to pose any kind of threat and winter would probaly have caused her to abandon her posistion in the long run.

Thank you.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

DurararaFTW, on 09 June 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

Okay, Ser Rodrik did attack them at some place that wasn't Dreadfort, and Lady Hornwood was dead just affter marrying Ramsay and Reek was raping some woman's corpse, and Rodrik did end up assuming Reek is Ramsay after killing him so guess I got the facts connected the wrong way in my head, sorry bout that

Why apologizing? The point of this forum is sharing insights, making theories and learning things we missed (and there are many). And is there a better way to learn than a bitter argument?

[jarl the climber]

Prince Doran Martell, on 09 June 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

If I had to guess, I would say that if Robb took about a year to muster all available forces he could have marched south with over 30,000 men, maybe as many as 35,000 or a little more. That would be with leaving skeleton garrisons at all the northern strongholds.

Its really hard to say how many men Robb could have mustered and his bannermen for march to the South if they had more time. We know that Lady Dustin sent as few as she could without raising any suspicions. I suppose Robb couild raise as many as he could in the area that are directly controled from Winterfell, which I've never seen clearly defined. Its really a matter of how many his bannermen are going to raise for him and this runs the gamut from the Umbers, who sent almost all their trained men of prime fighting age, to Lady Dustin who sent no more than necessary, to the Skagosi and the crannogmen who sent Robb no troops that we know of. The crannogmen did fight the Ironborn in the Neck however but they are fighting for their homes against invaders.

Cat also made a good point in saying that most of Robbs men were farmers tradesmen, etc. That such an army could not be maintained indefinitely ecspecially as an invasion force operating outside of the North. I actually think it would have been harder for Robb to raise a larger force if he took his time, Neds execution was a provocation to the entire North and got peoples blood up. Delays would allow people to calm down and cause them to doubt Robbs intentions and seriousness. I think if the North was actually invaded like it was by the Ironborn and Robb had been in Winterfell he could have raised an army of 50,000 in the same amount of time, to defend the North from attack but using them to invade another region is another question all together. Robb does not have the power to conscript people and force them to serve anywhere he wants for an indefinite period of time.

Edited by jarl the climber, 14 June 2012 - 06:57 PM.

[DurararaFTW]

jarl the climber, on 14 June 2012 - 06:55 PM, said:

Its really hard to say how many men Robb could have mustered and his bannermen for march to the South if they had more time. We know that Lady Dustin sent as few as she could without raising any suspicions. I suppose Robb couild raise as many as he could in the area that are directly controled from Winterfell, which I've never seen clearly defined. Its really a matter of how many his bannermen are going to raise for him and this runs the gamut from the Umbers, who sent almost all their trained men of prime fighting age, to Lady Dustin who sent no more than necessary, to the Skagosi and the crannogmen who sent Robb no troops that we know of. The crannogmen did fight the Ironborn in the Neck however but they are fighting for their homes against invaders.

Cat also made a good point in saying that most of Robbs men were farmers tradesmen, etc. That such an army could not be maintained indefinitely ecspecially as an invasion force operating outside of the North. I actually think it would have been harder for Robb to raise a larger force if he took his time, Neds execution was a provocation to the entire North and got peoples blood up. Delays would allow people to calm down and cause them to doubt Robbs intentions and seriousness. I think if the North was actually invaded like it was by the Ironborn and Robb had been in Winterfell he could have raised an army of 50,000 in the same amount of time, to defend the North from attack but using them to invade another region is another question all together. Robb does not have the power to conscript people and force them to serve anywhere he wants for an indefinite period of time.

Yeah. Their levies were eating up the land around Winterfell and after that Moat Cailin while he was staying put. Better question would if Ser Rodrik was tasked with raising a second army like Ser Steffon Lannister was, how big it could be.

Edited by DurararaFTW, 14 June 2012 - 07:12 PM.

[jarl the climber]

DurararaFTW, on 14 June 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

Yeah. Their levies were eating up the land around Winterfell and after that Moat Cailin while he was staying put. Better question would if Ser Rodrik was tasked with raising a second army like Ser Steffon Lannister was, how big it could be.

Part of the problem Cassel would and probaly did have is that he is only the casteltan of Winterfell, I beleive a Stark like Eddard, Robb or Benjen would get better results than Cassel in raising a force. If their had been an adult Stark to rule in Winterfell, who had experience and training at warfare many problems the Starks had would have dissappeared. Raising a force to take Moat Cailin is easier since many people had family trapped in the South unless it could be retaken.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Cassel was not trying to raise a force as large as he could possibly gather. He only needed enough men to break the seige of Torrhens Suare, retake Winterfell from Theon and expel the Ironborn from Moat Cailin. It was still autumn when Cassel was raising his force, men would be needed to gather the harvest. Putting an army together in winter might actually be easier provided you could feed them since the weather might prevent some men from pursuing their vocation. On a practical level it is unclear whether the Starks maintain magizines of caches where food is stored to facilitate the support and quick movements of their troops.

Historicaly the Romans maintained food depots in strategic locations all along their road system so that troops could be quickly moved within their empire without have to gather supplies or be slowed down by having to march with a large baggage train in tow.

[King Doug]

jarl the climber, on 14 June 2012 - 11:13 PM, said:

Part of the problem Cassel would and probaly did have is that he is only the casteltan of Winterfell, I beleive a Stark like Eddard, Robb or Benjen would get better results than Cassel in raising a force. If their had been an adult Stark to rule in Winterfell, who had experience and training at warfare many problems the Starks had would have dissappeared. Raising a force to take Moat Cailin is easier since many people had family trapped in the South unless it could be retaken.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Cassel was not trying to raise a force as large as he could possibly gather. He only needed enough men to break the seige of Torrhens Suare, retake Winterfell from Theon and expel the Ironborn from Moat Cailin. It was still autumn when Cassel was raising his force, men would be needed to gather the harvest. Putting an army together in winter might actually be easier provided you could feed them since the weather might prevent some men from pursuing their vocation. On a practical level it is unclear whether the Starks maintain magizines of caches where food is stored to facilitate the support and quick movements of their troops.

Historicaly the Romans maintained food depots in strategic locations all along their road system so that troops could be quickly moved within their empire without have to gather supplies or be slowed down by having to march with a large baggage train in tow.

I'm sure the army would be raised under the Lord of Winterfell's name. In this case it would have been Bran doing the actual 'calling of the banners.'