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[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Jon 2 - Spoilers for ADWD


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#1 Jon Targaryen

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Posted 06 November 2005 - 02:07 PM

this is the second jon chapter. i dunno what happens in the first, but something big must happen, or else why would he read the second and not the first?? maybe the first is too boring?? i dunno...

okay - the reading...

the first part was what he read at twbbs on wednesday... mel-stannis is burning mance, jon gets 4 night watchmen to shoot mance when he's screaming, etc...

a couple of things i don't recall reading in the previous spoilers, or clarifications... mance is brought out with his hands tied and wearing a noose of hempen rope. he is barefoot, and arms and legs are exposed to the elements. there are over 1000 wildlings present, but over 3/4 are women, children, and old men. mel calls joraman's horn "the horn of darkness". jon sees stannis and mel side by side and notes that "he is stone, she is flame" (or something close to that). mel says something "in a language jon did not understand" to set the runes on the horn on fire. jon notes nothing supernatural is happening while mance is/was burning, and thinks there is no power in king's blood. after mance is dead, mel shouts to the wildlings something about how they have to give up their "false gods, horn, king".

okay the new stuff...

they (stannis & co.) let whichever wildlings would agree to keep the kings peace to pass through a wooden baracade on the north side of the wall, through the tunnel in the wall, to the south side. at first they were weary, and only a couple went. then as the others saw that nothing bad happened to the trail blazers, the trickle turned into a steady stream. as they passed each was given a piece of weirwood - "a piece of the old gods to feed the new". the fire god is a jealous deity (i think jon thinks this). oh, they also get a bowl of onion soup.

rattleshirt and the new magnar of thenn are two of those who pass through the wall. stannis wants to make them all kneel to him as their king, and jon says something along the lines of "the free folk mock kneelers. let them keep their dignity, and they will love you better." to which stannis replies, "it is their obedience i need, not their love."

there was something about alastair thorne bad mouthing jon, and jon thinks "i'll have to deal with thorne before he deals with me."

the four giants remain north of the wall (one won't leave him mammoth, and the rest won't leave him) (only 4 giants left?!?). the rest of the wildlings are set free, and mel/stannis tells them to tell the other wildlings "one realm, one god, one king." the four giants are the last to go.

jon notes that mel is stannis's "red shadow".

jon orders the baracade disassembled, and to use the wood as fuel for a pyre to burn the corpses.

bowan marsh tells jon that many of the nightswatch men wonder about jon - think that he is a warg, etc. (ie men are wary of him.) it comes up that stannis has made rattleshirt a lord, and will be giving/gave him a castle on the wall. jon says that he told stannis that he will nt have wildlings on the wall, only in the gift. marsh also says that some nw men (i think it was janos slynt) are saying that jon is on stannis's side against the lannisters in the war for the iron throne.

doloros edd says something like "we burn their king, burn their gods, but they get onion soup."

jon goes to see stannis in castle black (i think) and before he admitted, he is searched and stripped of weapons. rattleshirt and magnar are there, with mel between the two wildlings. jon kneels, but stannis ignores him for a while. jon notes that there are no kingsmen in stannis's little circle (i assume this to mean they are all queensmen and wildlings). when stannis does start to talk with jon, he noted how he was 'irritated' by jon ordering the four archers to kill mance in the fire.

stannis is has changed out of his armour, but he still looks uncomfortable - "it is not in stannis to be comfortable." stannis says the arrows were a sign of mercy, and jon doesn't deny it. rattleshirt says something about how jon is a bastard, and how they are shifty anyway (or some such slander). rattleshirt also says that jon had mance shot so jon could claim to have killed mance rayder. jon is offered a drink (stannis drinks lemon and water) but jon thinks that he won't drink with these men.

apparently, it will take a year to get one of the castles on the wall repaired (nightfort??). i seem to recall that being too long for stannis, but i'm not sure. stannis means to use the wildlings as soldiers to fight the greyjoys and lannisters. stannis wants armour and weapons for the wildlings (approx 300 fighting men). stannis is going to use the women as hostages, but jon says that the spearwives are fighters, but stannis wont have women with him. this includes mel - she'll be staying on the wall.

jon and stannis look at a map, with candles on corners... stannis declares the winterfell is to be his first objective. "there is still power in the name winterfell" (or something). he plans to deal with the bastard of bolton there. jon had always heard that stannis was cautious, but this plan doesn't sound that way. jon tells stannis about the bolton uprising 700 years ago, and the stark king laid seige to the dreadfort for four years before winning.

there was something about horpe being the most formidable of the queensmen. he sigil is three moths on ash and bones.

anyway, jon says that stannis can't march down the kingsroad, and he can't use the wildlings against the north. northmen fear wildlings, so he won't get any support from other lords, and might get attacked along the way (by umbers??) jon says that stannis will need all the northern lords to get the boltons (umbers, karstarks, manderlys, etc.) most importantly, the umbers can't side with the boltons. there was something about an umber uncle taken hostage at the red wedding, but i'm not too clear about this...

stannis sends everyone but jon away. they leave reluctantly, and give jon dirty looks, etc. someone mutters "boy". mel and devon (squire) also remain.

stannis asks jon which of three choices would he have as warden of the north (i wish i could write fast enough to get down who the choices were, but i can't). jon doesn't like any of them, and wants stannis to hold winterfell in trust for sansa. stannis replies "for sansa, or for tyrion lannister??" stannis then says that he's giving it to the karstarks (i guess they were one of the three choices).

jon says that deepwood motte is the best place to start the war for the north. it's the closest to the wall, easy to creep up on, made of timber, and most importantly, in the hands of the ironmen, not northmen. restoring the castle to it's rightful owners is a good thing (said by jon or stannis, i don't remember). stannis can't afford to get mixed up with the umbers, so he suggests that stannis cross a goat track through the mountains and emerge at gates of deepwood motte. the people there are petty lords, not umbers (flint, big bucket, etc.). jon says that the norrys will help - they are friends of the night watch.

jon says that these people worship the old gods and not to offend or insult them. this is when mel says that she will remain on the wall to advise lord meadows (i dunno who he is). jon says that the wall is no place for women - it makes the men uneasy. mel takes it as a compliment (i think).

i think mel says something about how there are a lot of people who want jon dead. the way george read it reminded me of dr. evil in austin powers ("no one can stop me. not even - austin powers").

that's about it...

EDIT: OK! finally i can post the rest! i know that everyone else has done a great job, but i would feel incomplete if i didnt finish it. so here's goes.

so Roose is still down south. stannis wants to deal severely with the bastard of bolton (for which i applaud him, i hate that bastard! )

there is mention of a HARLON stark, hundreds or thousands (cant remember) of years ago, who was revolted against by the boltons. i think jon mentions this.

stannis says he wants to take moat cailan from the ironmen. jon says no one can take moat cailan... from the SOUTH. jon is feeling the pressure of advising stannis (as os said, he kept thinking that "talking is not fighting" or whatever). jon tells stannis "you need the hornwoods, the manderlys and the UMBERS. karhold is not enough."

it is mentioned that greatjon umber is being held hostage after the red wedding. i think that stannis says that the umbers would be no help, because while the umbers hate the boltons, they hate the wildlings more, living so close to the wall as they do.

there is mention of a ser jiles (sp?) and a ser massey (sp?)

stannis says: "all leave me now, except lord snow." melisandre also remains.

it is mentioned that devan (davos's son) is stannis' cupbearer. no mention of davos though.

stannis again tries to get jon to take WF. jon refuses again (especially since he's LC of the NW now!) stannis presents several choices and then says he will make the karstark (not sure which one) the lord of WF.

jon says that moat cailin is not the best choice. stannis asks him "where then?" jon replies "Deepwood Motte." jon tell stannis that it is easy to attack, cause its held by ironmen, not northmen.

but to get there they must not take the the kingsroad. jon says they have to go through the mountains, with the mountain clans, who are "proud, poor and prickly. but they are hospitable, you will eat well."

jon says thay must pass through the Norryland, the Norries are friends to the NW. the paths are goat tracks.

"goat tracks?" stannis asks scornfully.

jon convinces him it is the best way. but jon warns them that the mountain clans worship the old gods (this is aimed at mel). so dont offend them.

mel says, don't worry i'm staying on the wall.

mel then says "i have seen it in the flames jon snow, you have enemies"

jon says "i know."

stannis says: "not the enemies you know. the enemies who smile at you"

#2 moot

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Posted 06 November 2005 - 02:08 PM

george read the same jon chapter he read at the world's buiggest bookstore, except he read the whole thing, not just 15 min worth.

a few things of note before i begin:

he gave us a choice of which chapter we wanted to hear read. they were this jon chapter, the first sam chapter (never read before, but i hope he'll read it on monday), the dirst dany chapter, and the two dorne chapters he's read over a year ago.

this is the second jon chapter. i dunno what happens in the first, but something big must happen, or else why would he read the second and not the first?? maybe the first is too boring?? i dunno...

okay - the reading...

the first part was what he read at twbbs on wednesday... mel-stannis is burning mance, jon gets 4 night watchmen to shoot mance when he's screaming, etc...

a couple of things i don't recall reading in the previous spoilers, or clarifications... mance is brought out with his hands tied and wearing a noose of hempen rope. he is barefoot, and arms and legs are exposed to the elements. there are over 1000 wildlings present, but over 3/4 are women, children, and old men. mel calls joraman's horn "the horn of darkness". jon sees stannis and mel side by side and notes that "he is stone, she is flame" (or something close to that). mel says something "in a language jon did not understand" to set the runes on the horn on fire. jon notes nothing supernatural is happening while mance is/was burning, and thinks there is no power in king's blood. after mance is dead, mel shouts to the wildlings something about how they have to give up their "false gods, horn, king".

okay the new stuff...

they (stannis & co.) let whichever wildlings would agree to keep the kings peace to pass through a wooden baracade on the north side of the wall, through the tunnel in the wall, to the south side. at first they were weary, and only a couple went. then as the others saw that nothing bad happened to the trail blazers, the trickle turned into a steady stream. as they passed each was given a piece of weirwood - "a piece of the old gods to feed the new". the fire god is a jealous deity (i think jon thinks this). oh, they also get a bowl of onion soup.

rattleshirt and the new magnar of thenn are two of those who pass through the wall. stannis wants to make them all kneel to him as their king, and jon says something along the lines of "the free folk mock kneelers. let them keep their dignity, and they will love you better." to which stannis replies, "it is their obedience i need, not their love."

there was something about alastair thorne bad mouthing jon, and jon thinks "i'll have to deal with thorne before he deals with me."

the four giants remain north of the wall (one won't leave him mammoth, and the rest won't leave him) (only 4 giants left?!?). the rest of the wildlings are set free, and mel/stannis tells them to tell the other wildlings "one realm, one god, one king." the four giants are the last to go.

jon notes that mel is stannis's "red shadow".

jon orders the baracade disassembled, and to use the wood as fuel for a pyre to burn the corpses.

bowan marsh tells jon that many of the nightswatch men wonder about jon - think that he is a warg, etc. (ie men are wary of him.) it comes up that stannis has made rattleshirt a lord, and will be giving/gave him a castle on the wall. jon says that he told stannis that he will nt have wildlings on the wall, only in the gift. marsh also says that some nw men (i think it was janos slynt) are saying that jon is on stannis's side against the lannisters in the war for the iron throne.

doloros edd says something like "we burn their king, burn their gods, but they get onion soup."

jon goes to see stannis in castle black (i think) and before he admitted, he is searched and stripped of weapons. rattleshirt and magnar are there, with mel between the two wildlings. jon kneels, but stannis ignores him for a while. jon notes that there are no kingsmen in stannis's little circle (i assume this to mean they are all queensmen and wildlings). when stannis does start to talk with jon, he noted how he was 'irritated' by jon ordering the four archers to kill mance in the fire.

stannis is has changed out of his armour, but he still looks uncomfortable - "it is not in stannis to be comfortable." stannis says the arrows were a sign of mercy, and jon doesn't deny it. rattleshirt says something about how jon is a bastard, and how they are shifty anyway (or some such slander). rattleshirt also says that jon had mance shot so jon could claim to have killed mance rayder. jon is offered a drink (stannis drinks lemon and water) but jon thinks that he won't drink with these men.

apparently, it will take a year to get one of the castles on the wall repaired (nightfort??). i seem to recall that being too long for stannis, but i'm not sure. stannis means to use the wildlings as soldiers to fight the greyjoys and lannisters. stannis wants armour and weapons for the wildlings (approx 300 fighting men). stannis is going to use the women as hostages, but jon says that the spearwives are fighters, but stannis wont have women with him. this includes mel - she'll be staying on the wall.

jon and stannis look at a map, with candles on corners... stannis declares the winterfell is to be his first objective. "there is still power in the name winterfell" (or something). he plans to deal with the bastard of bolton there. jon had always heard that stannis was cautious, but this plan doesn't sound that way. jon tells stannis about the bolton uprising 700 years ago, and the stark king laid seige to the dreadfort for four years before winning.

there was something about horpe being the most formidable of the queensmen. he sigil is three moths on ash and bones.

anyway, jon says that stannis can't march down the kingsroad, and he can't use the wildlings against the north. northmen fear wildlings, so he won't get any support from other lords, and might get attacked along the way (by umbers??) jon says that stannis will need all the northern lords to get the boltons (umbers, karstarks, manderlys, etc.) most importantly, the umbers can't side with the boltons. there was something about an umber uncle taken hostage at the red wedding, but i'm not too clear about this...

stannis sends everyone but jon away. they leave reluctantly, and give jon dirty looks, etc. someone mutters "boy". mel and devon (squire) also remain.

stannis asks jon which of three choices would he have as warden of the north (i wish i could write fast enough to get down who the choices were, but i can't). jon doesn't like any of them, and wants stannis to hold winterfell in trust for sansa. stannis replies "for sansa, or for tyrion lannister??" stannis then says that he's giving it to the karstarks (i guess they were one of the three choices).

jon says that deepwood motte is the best place to start the war for the north. it's the closest to the wall, easy to creep up on, made of timber, and most importantly, in the hands of the ironmen, not northmen. restoring the castle to it's rightful owners is a good thing (said by jon or stannis, i don't remember). stannis can't afford to get mixed up with the umbers, so he suggests that stannis cross a goat track through the mountains and emerge at gates of deepwood motte. the people there are petty lords, not umbers (flint, big bucket, etc.). jon says that the norrys will help - they are friends of the night watch.

jon says that these people worship the old gods and not to offend or insult them. this is when mel says that she will remain on the wall to advise lord meadows (i dunno who he is). jon says that the wall is no place for women - it makes the men uneasy. mel takes it as a compliment (i think).

i think mel says something about how there are a lot of people who want jon dead. the way george read it reminded me of dr. evil in austin powers ("no one can stop me. not even - austin powers").

that's about it... 8)

EDIT: OK! finally i can post the rest! i know that everyone else has done a great job, but i would feel incomplete if i didnt finish it. so here's goes.

so Roose is still down south. stannis wants to deal severely with the bastard of bolton (for which i applaud him, i hate that bastard! )

there is mention of a HARLON stark, hundreds or thousands (cant remember) of years ago, who was revolted against by the boltons. i think jon mentions this.

stannis says he wants to take moat cailan from the ironmen. jon says no one can take moat cailan... from the SOUTH. jon is feeling the pressure of advising stannis (as os said, he kept thinking that "talking is not fighting" or whatever). jon tells stannis "you need the hornwoods, the manderlys and the UMBERS. karhold is not enough."

it is mentioned that greatjon umber is being held hostage after the red wedding. i think that stannis says that the umbers would be no help, because while the umbers hate the boltons, they hate the wildlings more, living so close to the wall as they do.

there is mention of a ser jiles (sp?) and a ser massey (sp?)

stannis says: "all leave me now, except lord snow." melisandre also remains.

it is mentioned that devan (davos's son) is stannis' cupbearer. no mention of davos though.

stannis again tries to get jon to take WF. jon refuses again (especially since he's LC of the NW now!) stannis presents several choices and then says he will make the karstark (not sure which one) the lord of WF.

jon says that moat cailin is not the best choice. stannis asks him "where then?" jon replies "Deepwood Motte." jon tell stannis that it is easy to attack, cause its held by ironmen, not northmen.

but to get there they must not take the the kingsroad. jon says they have to go through the mountains, with the mountain clans, who are "proud, poor and prickly. but they are hospitable, you will eat well."

jon says thay must pass through the Norryland, the Norries are friends to the NW. the paths are goat tracks.

"goat tracks?" stannis asks scornfully.

jon convinces him it is the best way. but jon warns them that the mountain clans worship the old gods (this is aimed at mel). so dont offend them.

mel says, don't worry i'm staying on the wall.

mel then says "i have seen it in the flames jon snow, you have enemies"

jon says "i know."

stannis says: "not the enemies you know. the enemies who smile at you"

there you go.

#3 Jughead of the Round

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Posted 08 November 2005 - 07:26 PM

I'd made a complete summary from all the individual ones on the Jon chapter (some aren't included above), so I thought I'd just post it:

JON

Lord Commander Jon Snow stands north of the Wall with two hundred of the Night’s Watch, and one thousand wildlings. Mance Rayder is led out barefoot, bound with rope. He wears only roughspun, no cloak. Jon thinks that he should have his cloak patched with red that the wildling
woman mended for him. "A king should have a cloak." Mance is smiling until he sees the cage. He says "I bend the knee!" but the noose tightens.

Melisandre says "all men must choose." Jon thinks that her voice smells like "anise, nutmeg and cloves." Mance is all bloody as they carry him to the cage. Then they bring forth the Horn of Joruman.

Melisandre calls it the "horn of darkness, the hell horn." She states that it is a bad thing, because if it is blown the Wall will fall, and the Others will come through. Jon thinks that King Stannis Baratheon is like stone, while Mel is like fire.

Stannis is wearing armour with a flame red sigil thing over his heart; it is mentioned that Queen Selyse is at Eastwatch. They throw the horn in the fire. It bursts into flame. The gold runes on the horn shimmer. Mance begins shouting, "I'm not the king!" Jon wants to look away, but he can't, not in front of his men.

So then Mance is in the cage in the fire. Jon thinks of the song "the Dornishmen's wife." "Now I'm (being killed) by the Dornishman's sword, but I've kissed the Dornishman's wife."

Jon orders his archers to kill Mance so he won’t burn to death, as a mercy. Stannis wanted the wildlings to see Mance die. Jon notes that no dragons come from the flame. "So much for king's blood". Melisandre says "None can withstand his flame! Free folks! Your false gods didn't save you, your false king didn't either!"

Stannis wields Lightbringer. It's brighter than anyone has ever seen. Jon then thinks, "is this the power of king's blood?" Mel starts a chant "one realm, one god, one king!" Then Stannis tells the wildlings they have a choice: join him or leave (the captains can join or die; the common people can leave). Most accept the offer.

All the wildlings who want to come south of the wall, or want any food to eat, must step forward and burn a piece of weirwood and bend the knee to King Stannis. When Rattleshirt comes forward, Jon thinks, “how can this be justice?” Jon thinks Rattleshirt’s loyalty will not last too
long.

He thinks back to a previous conversation with Stannis, in which he’d told Stannis, “They will love you more if you let them keep their pride.” Stannis had said that its their obedience he wants, not their love.

Alliser Thorne comes up to Jon and mutters "the wildlings hate us." Jon silences him with a look but the look between them is thick with loathing. Jon thinks he needs to deal with Alliser Thorne before Alliser deals with him.

One in ten of the captured free folk go back into the forest rather then join Stannis and bend the knee. Four giants stay behind because the mammoths won’t fit through the wall. Stannis warns that if the free folk who take up his offer ever come back to make war on the Wall they will be
killed.

Jon then has a long talk with Bowen Marsh who seems to be acting surprisingly loyal and helpful. He warns how Alliser Thorne, Janos Slynt and others are spreading rumours about Jon. How he’s a warg, how he’s supporting Stannis’ in his war on the Iron Throne, and how he’s
letting the wildlings through; that he is a wildling at heart. Its hard for the men to stomach standing by, letting the free folk through and resentment is spreading. Jon comments he should stick Thorne in the kitchen slicing onions and Marsh responds “not if you plan on ever eating
onions again.” Marsh also warns that others are spreading rumours besides Thorne and the obvious people.

Jon orders Marsh to help with his stewards. Jon goes with Dolorous Edd back through the Wall. Edd, who acts as his guard, says “We burn their king, burn their gods, but they get onion soup.” When Jon exits the gate he is surrounded by Queen’s men and taken to King Stannis. Jon notes
how the guards order him to come, they don’t request.

Jon arrives at Stannis’ meeting room and before he is admitted, he is searched and stripped of weapons. Inside it is King Stannis, Melisandre, Rattleshirt, Sigorn the new Magnar and a bunch of Queen’s men (Lord Meadows, Ser Horpe, Ser Massey, Ser Suggs, Ser Farring, Lord Fell, and Ser Penny). Jon notes how there are no Kingsmen at all in Stannis' councils. Jon kneels before Stannis, but Stannis ignores for him awhile. When Stannis does start to talk with Jon, he says how he was ‘irritated’ by Jon for having the four archers kill Mance in his fire. Stannis tells Jon that the arrows were a sign of mercy, and Jon doesn’t deny it. Rattleshirt says Jon is a bastard and that they are
shifty, claiming that Jon had Mance shot so Jon could claim to have killed Mance Rayder. Jon is offered a drink, but he thinks he won’t drink with these men.

King Stannis explains to Jon his plan to march with his new host, which now includes 300 wildlings. Stannis also demands arms and armour for the 300 wildling warriors. This worries Jon because the only reason the Watch can beat the freefolk is with weapons and training. King
Stannis wants to give both to them. The Night’s Watch will not like it. Jon compromises, agreeing to arm the wildlings with spears, but not armour, claiming there isn’t enough left with Donal Noye dead. Some of Stannis’ captains make snide comments behind Jon’s back. Stannis dismisses it and claims the wildlings will get armour from those they kill on campaign.

Stannis means to use this time to his advantage, for he is worried about people thinking Tywin Lannister will mop him up. Likewise with the Ironmen fighting amongst themselves and Roose Bolton not back he wants to strike while the striking is good. Stannis explains his plan. He will
command reserves. The wildlings will be the van. Lord Meadows will stay behind with 100 men at the Wall to keep track of Stannis' interests there. For instance, all the watch’s builders are working on the Nightfort with some of Stannis men but that repairs are 6 months from being completed.

Meanwhile, according to the proposed plan Stannis will march down the kingsroad to Winterfell and reoccupy the castle. Then he will meet up with Rickard Karstark’s uncle Arnolf Karstark, an old man, who apparently has entered an alliance with Stannis and seize the Dreadfort. Then, in
thanks for dealing with the betrayer Bolton, as well as rallying around the new lord of Winterfell, the north falls in Stannis’ lap. “There is still power in the name Winterfell,” says Stannis.

Jon at this point thinks to himself "I am sworn not to take sides in the conflict." He pauses and then thinks "But talking isn’t fighting". He speaks up, earning scathing comments from the captains, that King Stannis’ plan is ludicrous.

He claims that 800 years ago a Stark king besieged rebelling Boltons and it took 4 years for the Dreadfort to fall. Roose Bolton will arrive before Stannis wins. When the captains are sceptical that “no man has ever taken Moat Callin,” Jon replies “from the south” He then also declares that the northerners will never ever accept a southern lord ruling from Winterfell. He then goes on to declare that if Stannis marches into the north with a wildling army, the north will unite against him. That they dislike the Boltons but the enmity with the wildings is eons old. The first
reaction of every northerner will be to throw the wildlings back no matter what. They would rather have a Bolton then wildlings, and are tired of war and don’t want to join a losing cause again.

Jon adds that King Stannis would never make it to Winterfell either. That ravens fly faster then men and the north will know he marches with wildlings and rise up. That fighting the free folk is in the blood of the Umbers whose land Stannis would have to pass through. The moment Stannis comes south with wildlings every Umber man there is will saddle up and ride against Stannis.

One of Stannis men expresses scorn going “an Umber side with a Bolton?” but someone replies that the Umbers won’t act because the Greatjon is a prisoner. One of Stannis’ captains responds with “well if the Greatjon dies the uncles can take over, so they will help us." Jon looks at the
captain with scorn and asks “Is that what you would do? The Greatjon has sons. It is in their blood to fight the free folk.” Jon tells Stannis that he needs all the northern lords (Umber, Manderly, Glover, etc.) to attack the Boltons, not just the Karstarks.

At this point, King Stannis stands up and says he wants to talk to the Lord Commander alone and bids all his captains to leave. Jon notes this order doesn’t apply to Melisandre. The captains all leave reluctantly, giving Jon dirty looks, one of them mutters “boy.” Devan, Stannis’s squire,
remains.

Once alone, Stannis goes on how his brother Robert always won his battles by being bold, but now that he thinks of it Ned Stark was always there to temper his boldness with caution. But Stannis must act now while he has the opportunity and his enemies are disorganized.

Stannis again presses Jon to accept his offer of Winterfell yet again. Jon declines once more, and says he wouldn’t accept even if he wasn’t Lord Commander. Stannis gnashes his teeth at this. He asks if Jon wants Tyrion ruling Winterfell with his sister Sansa cowering at his feet. He then explains he has no intention of giving Winterfell to a southern lord. He claims it will go to the Karstark uncle, someone with some Stark blood, who while he is old has many sons. This annoys Jon, but he holds his tongue Stannis also adds that Lord Karstark is convinced the Dreadfort will fall, and that the Manderlys of White Harbor will join them.

Jon thinks “should I get involved,” and he then proposes an alternative plan to attack Deepwood Motte. By doing this, Jon explains, Stannis will be attacking the ironmen, not northmen. And for that most northmen will forgive him having a wildling army. He can reach it by going through the mountains, thus avoiding the Umbers who would attack no matter what.

Jon then goes into a lengthy explanation of the mountain clans. Eddard called them lords but their own people call them 'the Norrey and the Locke.’ Stannis asks if they would support him. Jon responds that one group definitely would if he attacked the ironborn. and the Norreys who Stannis must pass through would leave him alone. He points out the mountain clans are proud and that when his father toured among them they loved to feast him. So they will remain neutral, if, and he hesitates, looking at Melisandre, Stannis didn’t trouble their gods. They worship the old gods and won’t tolerate their weirwood trees being burned.

Melisandre responds they can keep their trees and stay in the dark. Besides, she won’t be going, she will be staying at the Wall. Jon thinks then that this means she will really be in charge, not Lord Meadows.

Stannis is sceptical of the 'goat track' but Jon points out that the young dragon won his battle with one. And Stannis replies it was ships that won the war for the young dragon. How the ships let his troops seize everything to the green blood river while the main Dornish force was up in the
princess pass fighting him. At this point it becomes accepted Stannis will attack the ironborn to win credibility, and give Deepwood Motte back to its rightful northern lords.

Melisandre then warns Jon that he has many enemies, to which Jon responds "I know.” She continues saying she has seen it in her fires and could tell him who. To which Jon responds he already knows who. Stannis warns him that its not the people you know who are your enemies
you must fear, but the enemy who smiles at you.

#4 Calibandar

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Posted 09 November 2005 - 12:58 PM

Well done Jughead, the original posts on the old board from those who'd heard the Jon chapter were rather fragmented.

#5 The hairy bear

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Posted 11 November 2005 - 04:31 PM

Thanks, Jughead. The summary is quite useful. And its one of the most interesting spoiler chapters. That final comment about the enemies that smile at you... Will Bowen Marsh be a traitor? Pyp and Green will conspire against him? Denys Mallister? Cotter Pyke?

IMO, Jon acts wrong when offering support to Stannis. The Night's Watch neutrality is important and he's not respecting that. FCOL, he gives lances to wildings for piercing the bellys of Northmen or Ironmen...

#6 Jughead of the Round

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Posted 11 November 2005 - 07:28 PM

I'm suspecting Bowen Marsh will be the traitor, but that may be too obvious... I'm hoping it's not Grenn and Pyp, they're the only close friends Jon still has on the Wall, even though he hasn't hung out with them for awhile.

From the Sam chapter in AFFC, I think Jon realizes that Stannis needs to succeed in order for the Night's Watch to survive, or the Lannisters may destroy them once Stannis is finished. It's a tough call on Jon's part, but he has the Night's Watch interest in mind the entire time. There is a conflict of vows and much ambiguity, yes, but Jon is holding his ground as much as possible without insulting Stannis completely. What would Lord Commander Janos Slynt be doing if he had been elected...? Running the Night's Watch into the ground I'm sure, and aligning it with the Lannisters probably. Jon is the best hope for the Night's Watch in this situation, and maybe even for the North as well.

The wildling decision, I'm sure, will come back and bite them all in the ass later on, but for the meantime they may be useful. There will be also some interesting interaction between Jon and Melisandre once Stannis goes off to war. She may be watching Jon's back, even though Jon does not wish to become dependent on her... perhaps one of her shadow men will be stopping any attempts on Jon's life?

The Night's Watch is filled with interesting minor characters: Ulmer of the Kingswood, Iron Emmett, Pyp, Dolorous Edd, Grenn, Janos Slynt, Alliser Thorne... I'm excited to see them all fleshed out in the next book.

Edited by Jughead of the Round, 11 November 2005 - 07:29 PM.


#7 Paul H

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Posted 22 November 2005 - 12:48 PM

The Night's Watch is filled with interesting minor characters: Ulmer of the Kingswood, Iron Emmett, Pyp, Dolorous Edd, Grenn, Janos Slynt, Alliser Thorne... I'm excited to see them all fleshed out in the next book.


I hope Iron Emmett is one of the good guys. I liked what little we have seen of him. Amiable, a good swordsman (more than a match for the Lord Commander Snow unless Jon goes into a flash-back induced frenzy), and a potential bad ass against the Others...

#8 DannyBoy

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 03:25 PM

I think Mel is going to turn out to be the enemy. We haven't seen Varys in awhile - and my hope is that after fleeing KL he takes the letter or information of who Jon really is (as obtained from Eddard back in AGOT) to Jon at the Wall, with hopes of recruiting him for his hidden Varys agenda. Mel will learn the truth and seek Jon's 'king's blood' for her purposes, forcing Jon to flee the Wall with Varys, opening up a chance for him to finally team up with Dany. :cool:

#9 Revan Black Dragon Tagaryen

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Posted 01 December 2005 - 05:16 PM

I dont think Mel will end up being an enemy. While she might be a tad bit over zealous, I think she just truly thinks Stannis is Azor Ahai reborn, but is wrong. Maester Aemon agrees saying that she misinterperated the prophecy and it is Daenerys is Azor reborn. But never once does he speak of her in a negative sense or lead someone to doubt her. But also what Dannyboy says makes sense because itgives an excuse for Jon and Daenerys to meet up and I for one think that must happen for the others to be beat.

Edited by Revan Black Dragon Tagaryen, 01 December 2005 - 05:18 PM.


#10 Red Rex

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Posted 17 December 2005 - 09:52 AM

I dont think Mel will end up being an enemy. While she might be a tad bit over zealous, I think she just truly thinks Stannis is Azor Ahai reborn, but is wrong. Maester Aemon agrees saying that she misinterperated the prophecy and it is Daenerys is Azor reborn. But never once does he speak of her in a negative sense or lead someone to doubt her. But also what Dannyboy says makes sense because itgives an excuse for Jon and Daenerys to meet up and I for one think that must happen for the others to be beat.



I think Jon Snow will get some fire in his veins when he breaks his vows with Mel... hey she's on the wall, he's on the wall, its cold and winter is coming... best embrace the fire

#11 Scribius

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 08:58 PM

I think Dolorous Edd is the enemy. And he's a Faceless Man



lol

#12 Patchface

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Posted 11 January 2006 - 06:08 PM

I think Dolorous Edd is the enemy. And he's a Faceless Man
lol



Add to that, I reckon Ser Alliser Thorne will actually turn out to be loyal, rather than an enemy. From his Tyrions chapter in KL where Thorne is to present the then disolved wight hand, he speech seems to be indicate he takes being a Nightswatchman seriously, and the defense of the wall a higher concern than the carry-ons of the various kings in the south.

The smiling enemies will be Bowen Marsh and Pyp. IMO of course.

#13 Sandsnake

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Posted 11 January 2006 - 08:59 PM

I hate the fact that Jon Snow has allowed the wildings to go beyond the Wall, and even arm them with spears. I think he should not have let Stannis demand this much of him. After all, the wall was built to keep wildlings and other creatures off the lands of the civilized men... I'm sure the other men of the NW think that Stannis is stepping on Jon like a welcome mat.

#14 Kingslayer

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Posted 11 January 2006 - 09:19 PM

I agree. Stannis is completely out of line here.

#15 Red Rex

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Posted 12 January 2006 - 06:52 AM

I hate the fact that Jon Snow has allowed the wildings to go beyond the Wall, and even arm them with spears. I think he should not have let Stannis demand this much of him. After all, the wall was built to keep wildlings and other creatures off the lands of the civilized men... I'm sure the other men of the NW think that Stannis is stepping on Jon like a welcome mat.



Well I certainly think Stannis is walking all over Jon and that NW brothers are becoming resentful BUT lets not forget, these NW bro's were the same ones who stood by idly as Stannis maneuvered to seal them in a room until a LC had been chosen... On a side note does it not occur to anyone else that the NW is akin to the Catholic Church enlight of the declining competance and inferior makeup of its population wouldnt a dozen of Jon STARKS bastards benefit the next generation of the watch more so than making him put his manhood on ice?

#16 Patchface

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Posted 12 January 2006 - 06:44 PM

I agree. Stannis is completely out of line here.


Remember too, Stannis is a King. To go against him is treason. Even though there is that minor inconvenience of there also being a King in Kings Landing,Stannis has more than enough men to intimidate the Nights Watch into doing whatever he wishes.

Jon kept his tongue and keeps his head attached to his shoulders.

#17 Colder Hands

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Posted 12 January 2006 - 07:07 PM

not that i am too lazy to read all of this and formulate an opinion, but i am

#18 Demonblade

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Posted 12 January 2006 - 10:30 PM

I quite like the plan Jon has given Stannis. Having the Wildings fight in the van (thus making their numbers dwindle the most) in liberating Deepwood Motte from the Ironmen is a very good way to get into the Northmen's graces, IMO. Think about it, for every wilding that dies, there aren't any more to replace them. But with victories, Stannis could get more Northmen support and will gather more and more Northmen in his army. In time, his army would consist of precious little wildings and nearly all Northmen. Then it's time for taking out the Boltons.

I agree. Stannis is completely out of line here.


Uh, Stannis is currently the only hope for the North. The Night's Watch is not independant of the realm, it serves the realm. Stannis, as king, can do whatever he deems necessary for the good of the realm. It's why he decided to go up there to actually act like a king rather than trying to become one.

#19 Kingslayer

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Posted 12 January 2006 - 11:25 PM

Uh, Stannis is currently the only hope for the North.

Bolton would be far better. He's a northman and he worships the old gods. Why exactly would he be so terrible, to the extent that Stannis is the region's "only hope"?

The Night's Watch is not independant of the realm, it serves the realm. Stannis, as king, can do whatever he deems necessary for the good of the realm.

That's utter bullshit. No kings before have ever imposed on the Watch like this. Stannis is violating every tradition of the Night's Watch there is, and you're claiming that it's standard practice to fuck them over "for the good of the realm".

#20 Demonblade

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Posted 12 January 2006 - 11:40 PM

Bolton would be far better. He's a northman and he worships the old gods. Why exactly would he be so terrible, to the extent that Stannis is the region's "only hope"?


Bolton is a turncloak who betrayed their king and sided with their sworn enemies. I'd say that siding with him is a pretty bleak prospect.

That's utter bullshit. No kings before have ever imposed on the Watch like this. Stannis is violating every tradition of the Night's Watch there is, and you're claiming that it's standard practice to fuck them over "for the good of the realm".


What has he done that was so bad? He armed the Wildings who have bent the knee and swore to fight for him. OMG!! CALL THE FUCKING COPS!!!! Seriously, what else has he done that was so bad? He's not actually making Jon's men fight for him. He's the only king who is taking the threat beyond the Wall seriously and is using Castle Black as a temporary base of operations, and this constitutes 'violating every tradition of the Night's Watch'? Think that you're exaggerating a little much here? He offered Jon legitimization and Winterfell, but Robb was about to basically offer the Night's Watch the same thing, why don't you condemn him as well?

And just because no kings ever imposed on the Night's Watch like this before (that we know of, anyway), doesn't mean that it isn't in their rights. Jon isn't independant of the realm simply because he's Lord Commander. He serves the realm, and thus the king.

Edited by Shitmouth, 12 January 2006 - 11:42 PM.