207 replies to this topic

[Kingslayer]

Shitmouth, on Jan 12 2006, 20.40, said:

Bolton is a turncloak who betrayed their king and sided with their sworn enemies.  I'd say that siding with him is a pretty bleak prospect.

Yeah. And how does that make his rule automatically evil and illegitimate? He'll bring peace to the north with an iron hand; Stannis is just one more outsider who will bring further death and destruction on a ravaged region.

Shitmouth, on Jan 12 2006, 20.40, said:

What has he done that was so bad?  He armed the Wildings who have bent the knee and swore to fight for him.  OMG!!  CALL THE FUCKING COPS!!!!

Yes, he let the hated enemies of the Night's Watch and the north through the Wall and armed them with Night's Watch steel, on the basis of some flimsy oath that the wildlings don't give a shit about.  

Shitmouth, on Jan 12 2006, 20.40, said:

is using Castle Black as a temporary base of operations, and this constitutes 'violating every tradition of the Night's Watch'?

... and he forced Jon to sign over the Nightfort and the Gift. Yep, that pretty much violates all precedent.  

Shitmouth, on Jan 12 2006, 20.40, said:

He offered Jon legitimization and Winterfell, but Robb was about to basically offer the Night's Watch the same thing, why don't you condemn him as well?

Robb had no more right than Stannis. They both want(ed) to walk over the Watch, for their own selfish reasons.

[Demonblade]

Quote

Yeah. And how does that make his rule automatically evil and illegitimate? He'll bring peace to the north with an iron hand; Stannis is just one more outsider who will bring further death and destruction on a ravaged region.

Tell that to those like the Umbers who have honour to think about.  And Roose will also (eventually) bring peace to the north with further death and destruction on a ravaged region.  May as well go with the enemy of your enemy.  

Quote

Yes, he let the hated enemies of the Night's Watch and the north through the Wall and armed them with Night's Watch steel, on the basis of some flimsy oath that the wildlings don't give a shit about.

...To fight and unify the north by taking out its other, more immediate enemies like the Northmen and the Boltons.  I'd say that arming 300 men is a pretty good exchange, 300 men that are going to die the soonest, I might add.  

Quote

... and he forced Jon to sign over the Nightfort and the Gift. Yep, that pretty much violates all precedent.

Like I said, the Nightfort was a temporary base of operations.  And the Gift is still a part of the Realm (and not being used at all, as well).  Plus, Jon didn't have a crossbow pointed at his head.  Jon agreed to Stannis's demands for his own reasons, which are that he needs Stannis as much as Stannis needs the Night's Watch.  He wasn't truly forced into anything.  

Quote

Robb had no more right than Stannis. They both want(ed) to walk over the Watch, for their own selfish reasons.

Well at least you're consistent.

Edited by Shitmouth, 13 January 2006 - 12:03 AM.

[Kingslayer]

Shitmouth, on Jan 12 2006, 21.02, said:

Tell that to those like the Umbers who have honour to think about.

The Umbers have more important things than "honor" to think of, such as the fact that their lord is a hostage of the Iron Throne. Also, they hate the wildlings with a passion.

Shitmouth, on Jan 12 2006, 21.02, said:

...To fight and unify the north by taking out its other, more immediate enemies like the Northmen and the Boltons.

I think you mean ironmen. Anyway, the Boltons aren't enemies of the north, and Roose has a much better chance of clearing out the ironborn than Stannis.

Shitmouth, on Jan 12 2006, 21.02, said:

I'd say that arming 300 men is a pretty good exchange, 300 men that are going to die the soonest, I might add.

All wildlings have been invited to pass through the Wall, and I'm sure thousands will accept. Can Stannis keep all of them peaceful and loyal? I highly doubt it.

Shitmouth, on Jan 12 2006, 21.02, said:

Like I said, the Nightfort was a temporary base of operations.

It's his official seat for as long as he stays in the north, and he's expecting a long stay.  

Shitmouth, on Jan 12 2006, 21.02, said:

Plus, Jon didn't have a crossbow pointed at his head.  Jon agreed to Stannis's demands for his own reasons, which are that he needs Stannis as much as Stannis needs the Night's Watch.  He wasn't truly forced into anything.

Stannis made it quite clear in ASoS that he would take what he wanted, regardless of what the Watch decided. Jon's decision to "let" it happen was really secondary.

Edited by Kingslayer, 13 January 2006 - 12:21 AM.

[Demonblade]

Quote

The Umbers have more important things than "honor" to think of, such as the fact that their lord is a hostage of the Iron Throne. Also, they hate the wildlings with a passion.

So you think that the Umbers are going to fight with Roose, who betrayed them and imprisoned their lord?  Willing to take bets on that?  

Quote

I think you mean ironmen. Anyway, the Boltons aren't enemies of the north, and Roose has a much better chance of clearing out the ironborn than Stannis.

Yeah, I meant the Ironmen.  And why isn't Roose an enemy of the North?  They're the ones responsible for taking out the Starks, who were loved and respected by virtually all of the lords of the north.  You really think that everyone is just going to take it up the ass by siding with Roose?  They still have some fight left and if they had somebody to fight for against treacherous Roose, many will take it.  

Quote

All wildlings have been invited to pass through the Wall, and I'm sure thousands will accept. Can Stannis keep all of them peaceful and loyal? I highly doubt it.

Read the spoiler chapter summary again.  Stannis is taking 300 wildings for his van against Deepwood Motte.  The rest are women, old people and children.  The thousands of wildings that were with Mance weren't all soldiers, you know.  

Quote

It's his official seat for as long as he stays in the north, and he's expecting a long stay.

Stannis also said that he was going to take Winterfell and the Dreadfort.  If he can manage that, how long do you expect him to stay?

Quote

Stannis made it quite clear in ASoS that he would take what he wanted, regardless of what the Watch decided. Jon's decision to "let" it happen was really secondary.

And your point is?  I already said that Stannis is within his rights as king to take what he deems necessary.

[Kingslayer]

Shitmouth, on Jan 13 2006, 08.35, said:

So you think that the Umbers are going to fight with Roose, who betrayed them and imprisoned their lord?  Willing to take bets on that?

Yes, I am. The Greatjon's life depends on it. Furthermore, their animosity toward the wildlings goes back thousands of years; their anger at the Boltons is a few months old.  

Shitmouth, on Jan 13 2006, 08.35, said:

And why isn't Roose an enemy of the North?  They're the ones responsible for taking out the Starks, who were loved and respected by virtually all of the lords of the north.

They just replaced one ruling House with another; the world isn't going to end.

Shitmouth, on Jan 13 2006, 08.35, said:

You really think that everyone is just going to take it up the ass by siding with Roose?

How exactly are the northern lords screwing themselves by backing Bolton? You'd have to be a fucking idiot to oppose him at this point.

Shitmouth, on Jan 13 2006, 08.35, said:

Read the spoiler chapter summary again.  Stannis is taking 300 wildings for his van against Deepwood Motte.  The rest are women, old people and children.  The thousands of wildings that were with Mance weren't all soldiers, you know.

Read the spoiler chapter summary again. Of the thousand wildlings captured, around a hundred refused to bend the knee and were released beyond the Wall. Melisandre told them to spread the word of Stannis's offer to the others. With winter coming, along with famine and the Others, thousands will accept and come south. Now, I'll ask again: can Stannis keep all of them peaceful and loyal?  

Shitmouth, on Jan 13 2006, 08.35, said:

Stannis also said that he was going to take Winterfell and the Dreadfort.  If he can manage that, how long do you expect him to stay?

You actually think he'll take the Dreadfort by storm? You're an even worse tactician than he is. :lol:

Shitmouth, on Jan 13 2006, 08.35, said:

I already said that Stannis is within his rights as king to take what he deems necessary.

And I already said that's bullshit. Every previous monarch, from the old Kings in the North to the Targaryens, has respected the sovereignty of the Night's Watch lands. Who the fuck is Stannis to piss on eight thousand years of tradition? Oh, that's right. He's Azor Ahai reborn.  :rolleyes:

[Nine of Spades]

Paul H, on Nov 22 2005, 09.48, said:

I hope Iron Emmett is one of the good guys.  I liked what little we have seen of him.  Amiable, a good swordsman (more than a match for the Lord Commander Snow unless Jon goes into a flash-back induced frenzy), and a potential bad ass against the Others...

The only indication that he was "more than a match" for Jon was in the training "on screen", in which I think Jon indicates he was distracted and didnt really have his head in the fight. The flashback sends him into a bezerking rage, and Emmett is no match for him. My impression from that and from Jon's previous comments was that they normally pretty evenly matched. In that one fight I think you saw the two extremes of Jon's abilities.

I like Emmett two from what little we've seen.

Edited by Nine of Spades, 13 January 2006 - 07:35 PM.

[Blackfish]

I really dont think its that big of a deal to let the wildlings through that have sworn fidelity. They can fight and help take back the north, if some die, no one cares.  Also i might be wrong here, but 8 thousand years ago when the wall was built and the NW started, I dont think it was to keep wildlings out, it was the creatures of the long night that it was meant to stop. The wildlings have just been the only threat for the past few millenia.

[Demonblade]

Quote

Yes, I am. The Greatjon's life depends on it. Furthermore, their animosity toward the wildlings goes back thousands of years; their anger at the Boltons is a few months old.  
They just replaced one ruling House with another; the world isn't going to end.

Maybe they still consider themselves at war, ever think of that?  Why side with the enemy that betrayed you right after you've been betrayed?  But believe whatever you like.  Time will tell.

Quote

How exactly are the northern lords screwing themselves by backing Bolton? You'd have to be a fucking idiot to oppose him at this point.

Why is that, I wonder?  The North still has a lot of fight left.  Robb was about to go back up north to raise another host, and Roose only has the support of the Freys and maybe the Karstarks.  You think Roose can pacify the north all by himself?  We know from AFFC that he's not getting any help from the south, so basically he's all alone.

Quote

Read the spoiler chapter summary again. Of the thousand wildlings captured, around a hundred refused to bend the knee and were released beyond the Wall. Melisandre told them to spread the word of Stannis's offer to the others. With winter coming, along with famine and the Others, thousands will accept and come south. Now, I'll ask again: can Stannis keep all of them peaceful and loyal?

Perhaps not.  But the Wildings with Stannis are going to be killed the first and quickest.  Any more wildings that come south to fight for him will meet the same fate.  Who gives a shit about wilding women, old people and children?  Besides, if they don't fight, they don't get armed.  Most people who fought for Mance went with him because they feared the Others and wanted to escape from them.  No doubt they will be happy where they are, but do you really think that all of the Wildings will betray Stannis?  Most of them just wanted to be safe.

  

Quote

You actually think he'll take the Dreadfort by storm? You're an even worse tactician than he is. :lol:

Well how else can it be taken?  With Roose and Ramsay both out, the Dreadfort will be left with a light garrison.  Dragonstone is no doubt as strong as the Dreadfort (if not stronger) and it was taken pretty easily while having a light garrison to defend it.  I assume you are referring to Jon's musings at the Dreadfort taking four years to take?  Was the Lord Bolton at the time and most of his men absent during this seige?  I think not, but keep up with the pathetic taunts.  It makes you look cool, dude, and big and tough and stuff. :thumbsup:

Quote

And I already said that's bullshit. Every previous monarch, from the old Kings in the North to the Targaryens, has respected the sovereignty of the Night's Watch lands. Who the fuck is Stannis to piss on eight thousand years of tradition? Oh, that's right. He's Azor Ahai reborn.  :rolleyes:

Sovereignty?  Do you even know what that word means?  Since when has the Night's Watch been a nation in and of itself?  It has always served the realm, and as such served the kings south of it.  And taking a plot of unused land to give it to people who have sworn fealty and will put it to good use.  Yeah, what an asshole!  Let's not forget that were it not for Stannis, the Wildings would have defeated Jon and broken the Night's Watch.  Were it not for Stannis, the Wildings would have been roaming around free, but at least now the Wildings will be under some restraints.  And where the fuck did I say that Stannis was AAR?

Quote

Also i might be wrong here, but 8 thousand years ago when the wall was built and the NW started, I dont think it was to keep wildlings out, it was the creatures of the long night that it was meant to stop. The wildlings have just been the only threat for the past few millenia.

Very true.  The Wildings raided the Northlands for years, mostly because they had absolute shit north of the Wall.  Perhaps having some land of their own will put a stop to that.  Cripes, they're not all bloodthirsty savages.

Edited by Shitmouth, 14 January 2006 - 06:11 PM.

[Kingslayer]

Shitmouth, on Jan 14 2006, 15.05, said:

But believe whatever you like.  Time will tell.

Indeed it will.

Shitmouth, on Jan 14 2006, 15.05, said:

Why is that, I wonder?  The North still has a lot of fight left.  Robb was about to go back up north to raise another host, and Roose only has the support of the Freys and maybe the Karstarks.  You think Roose can pacify the north all by himself?

Stannis isn't Robb, and he doesn't have the support of the entire north. As for Bolton, he won't be alone. Umber, Ryswell, and some others have already joined Ramsay in his campaign against Moat Cailin.    

Shitmouth, on Jan 14 2006, 15.05, said:

Any more wildings that come south to fight for him will meet the same fate.  Who gives a shit about wilding women, old people and children?  Besides, if they don't fight, they don't get armed.

A third of the wildlings are fighters. Let's say six thousand wildlings pass through the Wall; that's two thousand armed men right there. If even half of Mance's host comes south, the warriors will heavily outnumber Stannis's men and the black brothers. And then, who can tell what will happen?

Shitmouth, on Jan 14 2006, 15.05, said:

Most people who fought for Mance went with him because they feared the Others and wanted to escape from them.  No doubt they will be happy where they are, but do you really think that all of the Wildings will betray Stannis?

Betray? Not necessarily. They simply won't take the king's peace and king's laws seriously, and will raid the northmen as they always have.

Shitmouth, on Jan 14 2006, 15.05, said:

Dragonstone is no doubt as strong as the Dreadfort (if not stronger) and it was taken pretty easily while having a light garrison to defend it.

Wow. Did you read what I did? Aurane's account of the "fall" (if it actually happened) made it clear that it was a bloodbath. A thousand men died in the battle.

Shitmouth, on Jan 14 2006, 15.05, said:

Was the Lord Bolton at the time and most of his men absent during this seige?

Jon was telling Stannis that it would be impossible to take with the reduced garrison. That's why he's attacking Deepwood Motte.

Shitmouth, on Jan 14 2006, 15.05, said:

I think not, but keep up with the pathetic taunts.  It makes you look cool, dude, and big and tough and stuff.:thumbsup:

:rolleyes: Sorry for hurting your feelings. I'll be more considerate in the future, I promise.

Shitmouth, on Jan 14 2006, 15.05, said:

And taking a plot of unused land to give it to people who have sworn fealty and will put it to good use.

Again, you're presuming on the loyalty of the wildlings.

Shitmouth, on Jan 14 2006, 15.05, said:

Let's not forget that were it not for Stannis, the Wildings would have defeated Jon and broken the Night's Watch.

True. But how does that give him the right to take the Gift? One would think that the good deed would be its own reward, for such an honorable man.

Shitmouth, on Jan 14 2006, 15.05, said:

Since when has the Night's Watch been a nation in and of itself?  It has always served the realm, and as such served the kings south of it.

The Night's Watch lands were semi-autonomous. They acknowledged the Iron Throne, but the Watch collected the taxes in their domain and may have administered justice as well.

Shitmouth, on Jan 14 2006, 15.05, said:

Perhaps having some land of their own will put a stop to that.  Cripes, they're not all bloodthirsty savages.

Of course not. Jon realized that among the free folk were people not so different from him. But then there are the cannibals, the dog-people from the Frozen Shore, the Thenns. Many of the wildlings don't even speak the Common Tongue. I find it hard to believe that such people will take their oaths seriously.

Edited by Kingslayer, 14 January 2006 - 10:29 PM.

[ccxx]

after check my old computer,i find some orignal report here:(much details didnt show in this summray )



So jon is standing at the wall. the wall is weeping. mance rayder is led out b
ound with hempen rope. he is barefoot. he wears just roughspun, no cloak. jon
thinks that he should have his cloak patched with red that the wildling woman
mended for him. "a king should have a cloak." mance is smiling until he sees t
he cage. he says "i bend the knee!" but the noose tightens.

mel says "all men must choose." jon thinks that her voice (or breath?) smells
like "anise, nutmeg and cloves."

mance is all bloody as they carry him to the cage. then they bring forth the h
orn of joruman.

mel calls it the "horn of darkness, the hell horn." she states that it is a ba
d thing, because if it is blown the wal will fall, and the others will come th
rough. jon thinks that stannis is like stone, while mel is like fire.

stannis is wearing armor with a flame red sigil thing over his heart (this inf
o courtesy of os) it is mentioned that selyse is at eastwatch.

they throw the horn in the fire. it bursts into flame. the gold runes on the h
orn shimmer.

mance starts saying, "I'm not the king!"

jon wants to look away, but he can't, not in front of his men.

so then mance is in the cage in the fire.

jon thinks of the song "the dornishmen's wife." "now i'm (being killed) by the
dornishman's sword, but i've kissed the dornishman's wife."

then jon has his archers kill mance so he wont burn to death, as a mercy.

stannis wanted the wildings to see mance die.

jon notes that NO DRAGONS came from the flame. "so much for king's blood" (he
thinks)

mel says "None can withstand his flame! Free folks! your false gods didn't sav
e you, your false king didn't either"

stannis wields lightbringer. it's brighter than anyone has ever seen. jon then
thinks, "is THIS the power of king's blood?"

mel starts a chant "one realm one god one king!"

stannis says something like "if you kneel you live. if you go you die"

stannis says "open the gates!" his men echo him and then dolorous edd opens th
e gate. mel says if you come through these gates you will find life.

stannis men's (queen's men?) give pieces of weirwood to each person as they pa
ss through. one woman with 2 kids runs away towards the hills. one old man tak
es his wood and uses it as a weapon against the men. they stab and kill him. t
he others walk around the body.

jon sees shadows of mel and stannis large on the wall.

the new magnar (son of the old magnar of thenn) is the first to kneel. then ra
ttleshirt. hornfoot people, alfred croweater's son, harma's sister (?), milkwa
ter people, all kneel. (again courtesy of os  ) food and clothing is waiting f
or them on the other side of the wall. jon thinks that the game is methodical.


wildlings go thru gate.

alliser comes up to jon and mutters "the wildlings hate us." jon silences him
with a look (yay!)  but the look between them is thick with loathing. jon thin
ks he needs to deal with alliser before alliser deals with him.

jon thinks of the whole thing as a "royal mummers show." and thinks of mel as
stannis' "red shadow."

jon had bowen marsh rip down the stockades and burn them with the bodies. (aga
in, os' info)

conversation with bowen marsh and jon: bowen says that they are saying that jo
n is a warg and that he is loyal to the wildlings, and gave them the wall.

stannis is going to make rattleshirt a Lord with a Castle. jon thinks that jus
t like that, he is the lord of bones again...

bowen says they are saying that jon wants to help stannis usurp the iron thron
e and turn the NW into traitors.

much talk about how everyone fears tywin lannister (no one knows about his acc
ident on the privy yet  )

stannis commands jon to attend him. jon thinks that since he is LC stannis mig
ht be more respectful to him but he goes anyway.

he goes to kings tower. there are people there. Rattleshirt (back to lord of b
ones) is there. he wears a thick bracelet with a ruby set in it. all queen's m
en with fiery hearts are around stannis. no king's men.

they discuss taking back the north. stannis wants to strike immediately and us
e the wildlings as warriors. jon says NW wont fight, obviously. stannis says h
e only wants them to supply them with arms. spears, armor and hauberks. jon is
not happy about this. he says they have no armorer since donal nye died.  

stannis will leave valla in jon's care. jon says that women can fight. stannis
is clearly against this idea. lord meadows (?) says that camp followers just
slow them down. jon insists that they are spearwives, not camp followers.

so stannis says he is going to take winterfell and raise his banner there. the
n he wants to attack the dreadfort and get the bastard of bolton. he says the
karstarks will help him. roose is still down south.

few details to add to lyannas post:

mance *is* proud and deifant at first untill he sees the cage and then he pani
cks

the horns ruins *do* glow as it burns

stannis and mel gives a speech about 'look at your king now. look at your horn
now" to break their spirit

then mel and her followers start screaming "One kingdom one god one king" over
and over. Martin made me jump a foot in the air when he read this part becaus
e he bellowed it out lol

when jon has mance killed that was *not* what stannis wanted. he ordered the b
rothers to shoot them.

then stannis tells the wildings they have a choice. join him or leave (the cap
tains can join or die. the common people can leave). whoever martin makes a bi
g deal out of how the wildigns are starving and in rags. And so most accept th
e offer. alot of times we hear how 'onion soup for freedom' etc. onion soup wa
iting on the other side of the wall

What happens is all the wildings who want to come south of the wall.. or want
any food to eat.. have to step fowards and burn a piece of wierwood and bend t
he kneee to stannis.

as stated lord of bones the new thenn etc bend the knee and are to be made lor
ds by stannis.

accoridng to martin about one in 10 of the captured free folk went back into t
he forst rather then join stannis and bend the knee etc. The giants all stay b
ehind because the mamoths wont fit through the wall. and when they find this o
ut one giant refuses because of this. and when he refuses the others all refus
e also (a new king of the giants?)

stannis warns that if the free folk who take up his offer ever ocme back to ma
ke war on the wall they will be killed.

then jon has a long talk with bowen marsh who seems to be acting surprisingly
loyal and helpfull. HE warns how thorne and others are spreaidng rumros about
jon. How he is letting the wildings through and is stannis catspaw. that he is
a wilding ath eart etc etc. its hard to sotmach standing by and letting the f
ree folk through. and resentment is spreading. Jon comments he should stick th
orne in the kitchen slicing onions and marsh responds 'not if you plan on ever
eating onions again' or something like that.

Marsh also warns that others are spreaidng rumros etc besides thorne and the o
bviouse people.

marsh then is ordered ot help with his stewards (see lya's post for what they
are doing. there were 200 brothers with jon outside the wall btw). And jon goe
s with dolouress edd back through the wall. edd is his gaurd.

we have some great humor but i wont do justice for ed lol. but the entire room
wasl aughing aloud when it was read!!

when jon exits the gate he is surrounded by queensmen and taken to stannis. Jo
n notes how the gaurds order him to come they dont request.

one note: Davos is not mentioned *At all* in this chapter. dont know the meani
ng of this. this is the *Second* jon chapter. but it seemed worthy of note.

jon gets to stannis meeting room and its stannis, mel, lord of bones the new m
agnar an a bunch of queens men. Jon notes how there are no kingsmen at all in
stannis' councils. only queens men. Again.. no mention of davos. though his so
n devan is mentioned

Also big cool hint!!!!::: SOmewhere along this itme jon thinks how much he wis
hed he had maester aemon to give him council. But that sam aemon and gilly wer
e all still at sea. Big spoiler eh?

anyway. stannis tells jon his plan which is to march with his new host. Wich i
ncludes 300 wildings now... (jon asks him to take the spear wives stannis says
'i iwll never take woman on campaign. never' jon argues but loses. *I* think
the spearwives will end up helping jon somehow. but the spearwives nad other w
ildings are ot be left at the wall). Stannis also demands arms and armor for t
he 300 wilding warriors.

This worrys jon because the only reason the watch can beat the freefolk is wea
posn and trianing. and stannis is giving both to them. and the brothers wont l
ike it. he gives in and agrees to arm the wildings with spears. but he refuses
to give them armour claiming there isnt enough left with noye dead. stannis d
ismisses it and claims the wildings will get armour from those they kill

Along the way we have alot of stannis captains (lord medow is one the other na
mes slip my mind) making snide comments behind jons back. We also learn selyse
is at eastwatch still and that all the watches builders are working on the ni
ghtfort with some of stannis men but that repairs are 6 months from being comp
leted.

Stannis means to use this time to his advantag.e he is worried about people th
inking tywin will mop him up (they dont know tywin is dead yet). Likewise with
the ironmen dead and bolton not back he wants to strike while the striking is
good.

Stannis explains his plan. HE will command reserves. the iwldings will be the
van. He lsits tow other captains who command his lfanks. Lord Medows will stay
behind with 100 men at the wall to keep track of stannis' intrests at the wal
l.

meanwhile according to the plan proposed lord stannis will march down the king
sroad to winterfell and reoccupy the castle. then he will move on the dreadfor
t meeting up with lord karstark who apparently has entered an alliance with st
annis.

HEre is an area i am confused with. Stannis has made an allaicne with rickard
karstarks *uncle* an old man who has had many dead wives. I could be wrong but
i tihnk he is referred to as the lord of karhold despite the one surviving ka
rstark son.

anyway that aside. the plan is karstark and stannis meet up and sieze the drea
dfort. after stannis takes winterfell and then in thanks for dealing iwth the
betrayer bolton.. as well as rallying aorund the 'new lord of winterfell' the
north falls into stannis lap.

jon at this point thinks to himself "I am sworn not to take sides in the confl
ict." he paused and then thinks "But talking isnt fighting". He speaks up..ear
ning scathing comments from the captains..that stannis plan is ludicrouse.

He claims that 800 years ago a stark king whose name i dont remember besieged
rebelling obltons and it took 4 years for the dreadfort to fall. bolton would
arrive before stannis wins. when the captains are skeptical 'no man has ever t
kane then moat' jon says *from the south* HE then also declares htat the north
erners would never ever accept a southern lordling ruling from winterfell. He
then goes on to declare that if stannis marches into the north with a wilding
army the north will unite agaisnth im. that htey dislike the boltons but the e
nemity iwth the free folk is eons old. and the first reaction of every norther
ner will be ot throw the wildings back no matter what. and they would rather h
ave a bolton then wildings. and they are tired of war and dont want to joiin a
losigncause again.

Jon adds that stannis owuld never make it to winterfell either. that ravens fl
y faster hten men and the nroth will know he marches iwth wildings and rise up
. That fighting the free folk is in the blood of the umbers whose land stannis
owuld have to pass through. and hte momment stannis ocmes osuth with wildings
every umber man there is will sadle up and ride agaisnt stannis.

one of stannis men expresses scorn going 'an umber side with a bolton?' and i
ofrget the exact thing that leads ot the ocmment but someone says that the umb
ers wont act cause the greatjon is a prisoner.

then one of stannis captains responds with soemthing like 'well if the greatjo
n dies the uncles can take over so they will help us." and jon looks at the gu
y with scorn ad goes 'is that what you would do? and the greajon has sons. and
nayway it is in their blood to fight the free folk'

at this point stannis stands up and says he wants to talk to the lord commande
r and bids all his captains ot leave. we have lastm intue descripotiosn fo wha
t all the captains do (one jests one downs his wine etc0 before they leave. jo
n ntoes this order doesnt seem to apply to mel.

stannis then goes on how his brother always won his battles by being bold. but
now that he tihnks of it ned stark was laways there to tmeper his boldness wi
th caution. but that stanis must act now whilke he has the oppurtunity and his
enemies are disorganized.

jon agian thinks 'should i talk? i cant takesides. but talking isnt fighting'


im a little unsure of what comes first here but at one point stannis presses j
on to accept his offer of winterfell yet again. and jon declines yet again. an
d says he wouldnt accept even if he wasnt lord commander. stannis gnashes his
teeth at this. he asks if jon wants tyrion urling winterfell with his sister c
owering at his feet. and then explains he has no intention of giving winterfel
l to a osuthern lordling. he claims it will go to the karstark.. the uncle.. s
omeone with some stark blood. who while he is old has many sons lol. this anno
ys jon but he holds his tongue

stannis adds that lord karstark is ocnvinced the dreadfort will fall. and that
the manderlys iwll join


jon has the 'should i geti nvolved' thought and he then proposes the plan to a
nd attakc deepwood motte. By doing this jon explains stannis will be attakcing
the ironmen. not northmen. and for that mostn orthmen will forgive him having
a wilding army. and he can reahc it by going through the mountains. thus avoi
ding the umbers who owuld attack no matter what. jon then goes into a lengthy
explanaiton ofthe mountain clans. his eddard called them lrods but hteir own p
eople call them 'the norry the locke' etc. stannis asks if htey would support
him. jon responds that one group (forget wich) deifnitly owuld if he attacked
the ironborn. and the noreys who stannis must pass through would leave him alo
ne. he points out the mountian clans are proud. and that hwne his father toure
d among htem they lvoed ot feast him. so they wil lrmeain neuturaul...if.. and
he hesitates and looks at mel... stannis didnt toruble their gods. they worsh
ip the old gods and wont tolerate the trees being burned.

mel respodns htey can keep their trees and stay in the dark. besides.. she won
t begoing. she will be staying at the wall. jon thinks then that this menas sh
e will really be in charge not medow.

They also discuss how they can take a mountian pass to deepwood. the umbers wo
uld ifght stannis no matter what. Stnanis is skeptical of the 'goat track' but
j on points out that the young dragon won his battle with one. And stannis rep
lys it was ships that won the war for the young dragon. how the hips let his t
roops sieze everythign to the green blood river while the main dornish force w
as up in the princres pass fighting him. cool spoilers on that war.
at this point it bcoems accepted stannis will attakc the ironborn to iwn credu
biltiy. and give depewood motte back to its rightfull northern lords.

mel then warns jon that he has manhy enemys. to wich jon responds "i know" and
she goes she had seen it in the fire and oculd tell him *who* to wich jon res
podns he already knows who. Then stannis warns him that its not the people you
know are your enemys you must fear but the enemy who smiles at you.

Edited by ccxx, 27 January 2006 - 02:48 PM.

[Ser Brendan the Voyager]

Kingslayer, on Jan 12 2006, 20.51, said:

Yes, he let the hated enemies of the Night's Watch and the north through the Wall and armed them with Night's Watch steel,

The hated enemy of the nights watch are the Others, let us not forget this.  The wildlings have always been an inconvenience.  on as i like to call them the enemies of summer and as we all know "Winter is coming."  I would imagine there have been other times in the 8000 year history of the wall when those free spirits to the north have had to take refuge behind the wall, and yes even times whenit was necessary to arm them.  As to the question of "King Stannis" and his stay at the wall that is a sticky situation.  I dont know how Jon could have handled it any other way while still preserving the Nights Watch and the security of the Kingdoms.

[Andhaira]

Gazarak, you are correct, Stanni did indeed start acting like a king, instead of trying to pretend he was one in southern courts. He also does not whine and weep in self pity like some other idtiots in the series do (such as handless/dickless jaime lannister :D)

Stannis is doing whats in his right as the rightful king of westeros; the nw adn the entire realm will be better for it.

As for jon's enemies, it could wel turn out to be dolorus edd since thats the one we would least expect.

Also, are we sure that the mance rayder who died was actually the real mance, and not someone who was posing as mance all along??

[Ghosts Companion]

Andhaira, on Feb 3 2006, 01.12, said:

Also, are we sure that the mance rayder who died was actually the real mance, and not someone who was posing as mance all along??

Would not be the first time something crazy like that happened. I just do not if know if they could fool mel that much.

[Ealasaid]

OMIgodess.

Melisandre and Jon Snow?

I sincerely hope that Melisandre doesn't start kissing corpses and creating more Un dead.  Enough is enough.

Maybe the Wall on Fire is Dany flaming out Mel

[Reighnhell]

RE: Jon, Stannis, and the Night's Watch.

I have a hard time faulting Jon for his current way of dealing with Stannis.

After all, when Stannis rode in, the NW had wildlings all over the place and their backs were pretty much against the wall (no pun intended). Without Stannis, the Watch would have fallen. So a little gratitude is probably expected, especially by someone as notoriously prickly as Stannis. How can they remain 100% impartial without giving grave offense to the one "King" who seems to give half a damn about whats happening at the Wall?
Considering that even if Jon decided that there was no way the Watch would be able to aid Stannis what so ever....what are they going to do about it? In the NW's current position, what is keeping Stannis from simply taking what he wants from the Watch, regardless of how much they might complain? Right now Stannis is the proverbail 800lbs Gorilla and he's decided to sit at the Wall. The NW would do well to give him bananas until he decides to sit somewhere else.

At least from my view, Jon is doing a pretty good job of keeping his guest happy, showing the appropriate amount of respect, but not completely handing his men and resources over to Stannis's cause. But I'm a total Jon Snow mark so I'm probably a little biased.

[Steve Moss]

Reighnhell, on Feb 9 2006, 20.14, said:

Considering that even if Jon decided that there was no way the Watch would be able to aid Stannis what so ever....what are they going to do about it? In the NW's current position, what is keeping Stannis from simply taking what he wants from the Watch, regardless of how much they might complain? Right now Stannis is the proverbail 800lbs Gorilla and he's decided to sit at the Wall. The NW would do well to give him bananas until he decides to sit somewhere else.

At least from my view, Jon is doing a pretty good job of keeping his guest happy, showing the appropriate amount of respect, but not completely handing his men and resources over to Stannis's cause. But I'm a total Jon Snow mark so I'm probably a little biased.

Excellent analogy.   :P

[Werthead]

Just to add that GRRM has said at a few signings that the first Jon chapter in ADWD may be a mirror image of the first Sam chapter in AFFC, i.e. the same chapter from Jon's POV. If it works' he'll do it, if it doesn't he won't.

[Ser Brendan the Voyager]

Werthead, on Feb 14 2006, 10.30, said:

Just to add that GRRM has said at a few signings that the first Jon chapter in ADWD may be a mirror image of the first Sam chapter in AFFC, i.e. the same chapter from Jon's POV. If it works' he'll do it, if it doesn't he won't.

I hope he does.  I love the scenes where Jon is training.  I know he will be a better battle commander than a sword fighter but I hope he is great at both.  He has to be a pretty good sword fighter by now.  I know he is only 16 but still.

[Jon Stark]

it says in the first book AGoTs that Jon is better with a sword than Robb was. and look at how many fights Robb was in before he was killed at the Red Wedding. I think he will be a good sword fighter and a good commander.

PS: Jon is the best character in the books.

[Barba]

Jon Stark, on Feb 15 2006, 20.32, said:

it says in the first book AGoTs that Jon is better with a sword than Robb was. and look at how many fights Robb was in before he was killed at the Red Wedding. I think he will be a good sword fighter and a good commander.

PS: Jon is the best character in the books.

Jon is better swordsman than Robb. But that dosen't mean Robb was good swordsman. Robb was good leader, and won every battle in the field, but that means he was good tactician and leader. not swordsman.

Robb didn't died in the field, but i think it is because he had Grey wind next to him.

We saw Jon fighting Halfhand, and in that fight Jon was not showing much. He had his wolf fighting with him, and he new halfhand would let him win, and still it was hard fight for Jon.

Halfhand was excelent swordsman, and Jon isn't bad either, but he is also not that good.


As for commander, we saw little of it on the wall with the wildings, and it was good. Jon was a good Commander so far, and in this chapter he is proving it again, counseling Stannis to get Deepwood Mote from Ironborn, in order for north to accept him as king.

I can't wait to see him and Mel playng their sort of 'game of thrones' on the wall after stannis leaves.

Werthead, on Feb 14 2006, 13.30, said:

Just to add that GRRM has said at a few signings that the first Jon chapter in ADWD may be a mirror image of the first Sam chapter in AFFC, i.e. the same chapter from Jon's POV. If it works' he'll do it, if it doesn't he won't.

there is other posibility.
If this was Jon's second chapter before the split of feast, and if George puts reflecting Sam's chapter from Jon POV, this will be third Jon's chapter in ADWD. Wich means that we still have on chapter between.

If this was supposed to be Jon's first chapter before the split, then you are correct.