122 replies to this topic

[The Lost Lord]

Daario is undoubtedly the most hated character in ADWD (EDIT: I don't mean the most evil character, I mean that lots of people hate reading about him and find his material poorly written -- Ramsay is more deserving of hate, but most agree he's a well-written and dramatically effective character). Again and again, posters rail against Dany's stupidity for falling for this blatantly untrustworthy sellsword captain, and against Martin for spending so much time on what they see as an inspid distraction.

But I maintain that Daario has crucial thematic importance for Dany's struggle within herself, which is the heart of her ADWD arc.  Dany opts for political compromise to achieve peace and protect the lives of her "children," but Daario wants to reject this approach in favor of violence, dominance, and taking what one wants. Dany's attraction to Daario is not simply some girlish foolery, but a key indication that some part of Dany is drawn toward Daario's violent approach, and that she is unwilling to completely abandon the "conquerer" side of her own personality that she has symbolically chained with her dragons.

A Butcher Queen: Let's start with Dany and Daario's first significant interaction in ADWD. Unable to stop the Harpy killings, Dany has just offered to marry Hizdahr if he can stop them for 90 days. Hizdahr's sole interest is reopening the fighting pits Dany despises, and of course Dany feels no attraction to him, so this would entail Dany making two sacrifices in exchange for peace.

Then, she is told Daario has arrived and calls him in. She tells him her plan to marry Hizdahr, and he scoffs and suggests simply murdering all of the Meereenese nobles at a Red Wedding. Dany's attraction to him is repeatedly emphasized, but she tells herself she is horrified at what she is saying, and tells Daario she's no butcher queen. Daario responds, "Most queens have no purpose but to warm some king’s bed and pop out sons for him. If that’s the sort of queen you mean to be, best marry Hizdahr." What's great about this scene is that they're both right. Dany is in denial about how much she'd have to give up for peace, but she's right that Daario's a monster and butcher. Dany ends the chapter by sending Daario away, disgusted, before telling herself she is no different from him because Drogon killed the little girl. But clearly she doesn't truly believe this, because she continues to try to prove that she is different from Daario by protecting the lives of her subjects.

A Risky Affair: Over her next few chapters Dany rejects violent plans from Groleo and the Shavepate as the foreign threat looms and the pale mare arrives with the Astapori, and commits to the idea of marrying Hizdahr for peace. But after hearing of Brown Ben's betrayal and making the wrenching decision to shut the gates to the Astapori, "she wanted to scream, to gnash her teeth and tear her clothes and beat upon the floor." Frustrated at her own powerlessness and the fast-approaching loss of her own autonomy with her marriage, she immediately orders everyone but Daario to leave so she can blow off some steam by having sex with him.

This decision is key because it's the first time Dany acts out to endanger the peace she's told herself she wants so desperately. She is still in theory committed to the marriage with Hizdahr, but she carries on the affair openly and makes out with Daario in court. The Green Grace is furious and I suspect this is the catalyst for the poisoned locust attempt later on (EDIT: I no longer believe the Harpy poisoned the locusts, rather that Shavepate did). It's an indication that Dany will not be able to keep her "dragon" personality chained forever -- she wants certain things and she's miserable if she can't get them. She also remains fascinated and attracted to Daario's lack of a conscience and willingness to take seemingly insane risks to get what he wants.

Not Made for Peace: Finally, when peace is achieved, Dany symbolically removes Daario from the playing field by sending him to Yunkai as a hostage. She tells herself, "He will be safer as a hostage. My captain was not made for peace." But of course, it's not only Daario but also Dany who's "not made for peace," as she displays when she grows increasingly antsy over the course of the chapter: "I hate this… How did this happen, that I am drinking and smiling with men I'd sooner flay?… This is peace… This is what I wanted, what I worked for, this is why I married Hizdahr. So why does it taste so much like defeat?

Dany keeps trying to convince herself that she's made the right decisions. "Better a few should die in the pit than thousands at the gates. This is the price of peace, I pay it willingly. If I look back, I am lost." But when she reflects on Daario, she seems to realize something about herself. "I should never have taken him into my bed. He was only a sellsword, no fit consort for a queen, and yet… I knew that all along, but I did it anyway/" She cries and eventually falls asleep "to dream queer, half-formed dreams of smoke and fire." In the following chapter, Dany watches the fighting pits, becomes disgusted at what her peace has cost, throws off her Meereenese garments, and Drogon arrives to break the peace.

A New Approach: In Dany's final chapter, she has a series of visions that lead her to mentally embrace "fire and blood," followed by a literal manifestation of that new approach when Drogon roasts a horse and Dany chows down on it with abandon. She reflects on what she's doing in some of her final sentences in the book:

Quote

Dany, starved, slid off his back and ate with him, ripping chunks of smoking meat from the dead horse with bare, burned hands. In Meereen I was a queen in silk, nibbling on stuffed dates and honeyed lamb, she remembered. What would my noble husband think if he could see me now? Hizdahr would be horrified, no doubt. But Daario...
Daario would laugh, carve off a hunk of horsemeat with his arakh, and squat down to eat beside her.

So in that sentence -- the last thought Dany has in the novel, so obviously of crucial importantance -- Dany seems to have embraced Daario's violent approach over the peaceful political compromise represented by Hizdahr.

Edited by The Lost Lord, 26 September 2011 - 02:50 PM.

[Silverin]

That is a great analisys. I too think that the whole Dany storyline in ADwD was about how she is not fit to rule in peace. And that is why she is attracted to guys like Drogo and Daario.
I just want to add that she had embraced the "fire and blood" in herself. In ADwD during Tyrions journey we see lost civilizations that was destroyed by the dragonlords of Valyria, and we learn that the whole reason the Ghiscari is so depented on slavery is because the same dragonlords destroyed the fields nearby. And in her last chapter as well we hear, the dragons plant no trees statement. Dany is the blood of dragon, she is fire and blood. She never will be a ruler who is able to stabilize a whole continent and bring peace. She is a conquerer.

[Cricket]

I agree that Daario probably is meant to serve as a reminder of Dany's untamed conqueror side. However, Daario is still a very unlikable character. He's extremely violent--not the cultural brutality the Dothraki show at times--he really seems almost sadistic. His flamboyance is off-putting and his attraction to Dany comes off more as lecherous than romantic.

Still, Jamie seemed very much like the same sort of character when he was introduced. Maybe a POV can do some wonders for readers' opinions of him.

[MillerEP]

I never hated Daario, I actually liked him.  He's straight and to the point and fits his role well as an untrustworthy sellsword.  I like some of your analysis.  I too think his main role was to help be a teacher to Dany of sorts.  As we all know, the only way to learn hard lessons is to make mistakes.  Dany makes a lot of those, by trying to be a good person and stick to her morals.  GRRM is always keen to show us that sticking to honor or morals sometimes isn't the best thing, just look at what happened to most the Starks, and notice that the person who seem to be thriving the most is the sneaky cuthroats like Petyr, Varys, Tyrion, Cersei, etc.  

In GRRM's interviews he mentioned a couple times that often times the best rulers are bad people, and that some of the worst rulers were good people, and that he doesn't want a Lord of the Rings ending, where Aragon becomes king and now everything is rainbows and puppies.  Which leads me to believe that Dany will grow and learn from her Mereneese / Daario debacles and become a much better ruler for it, but a much worse person.

[Ampersand]

Silverin, on 15 August 2011 - 10:22 AM, said:

That is a great analisys. I too think that the whole Dany storyline in ADwD was about how she is not fit to rule in peace. And that is why she is attracted to guys like Drogo and Daario.
I just want to add that she had embraced the "fire and blood" in herself. In ADwD during Tyrions journey we see lost civilizations that was destroyed by the dragonlords of Valyria, and we learn that the whole reason the Ghiscari is so depented on slavery is because the same dragonlords destroyed the fields nearby. And in her last chapter as well we hear, the dragons plant no trees statement. Dany is the blood of dragon, she is fire and blood. She never will be a ruler who is able to stabilize a whole continent and bring peace. She is a conquerer.

I disagree that ADWD meant Dany is simply unable to rule in peace. In her last ASOS chapter, Dany reflects on Aegon the Conqueror: how he conquered Westeros with fire and blood but brought peace to its people. If nothing else, this establishes that there's nothing inherent in the Targaryens that make them inept rulers. I think the Dany's rule in Mereen is characterized by the difficulty of ruling well, as well as how out of place Dany is there. Also, after Drogon kills the little girl, Dany is hesitant to use any force whatsoever to solidify her rule; I don't blame her (in her heart, she doesn't want to be a butcher queen, but a mother to her people), but it severely undermines her power.

I think Dany's new journey will not be a repeat of ASOS (aka, conquering Westeros like she did Slaver's Bay). The easy way out for Martin would be to make her a savior of Westeros, coming to defend them from the Others, using a kind of redemptive violence to satisfy both aspects of her personality. However, Martin tends not to take the easy way, so I think she'll have to find a path that allows her to reconcile her inner conflict (mother vs. destroyer) in a less direct way. I don't know if Dany will end up on the Iron Throne after all, but I do believe we'll get a real resolution to her character.

[Envie]

Like others responding, I'm in agreement that Dany's affair with Daario served its own purpose in her 'lessons in life' journey towards becoming a real Queen. I also did not 'hate' him or even dislike his personality or brutal violent nature. He was, to me, exactly what he should have been for a mercenary. He's an Essos version of Bronn in my opinion. Not really fit for consort to a Queen, but girls always do like the 'bad boys'!

Dany's still just a 'girl' in my book. ADWD was a real letdown to me in her chapters for no resolution to her problems (still up to her neck in slaver crap) and the way she kept making bad choices and particularly her huge error in chaining up and ignoring her dragons. But after its all over and I'm reflecting and re-reading bits, I've come to the same conclusion that most of this stuff needed to happen for her to grow and become wiser, and even bad lovers do help us grow stronger in our heart. A few heartbreaks will make Dany rule less with her heart and more with her mind and her might.

I liked your analysis about Daario and hopefully it will give some fresh perspective to those who were Daario hating and Dany hating both. Daario's aggressive nature appeals to Daenerys and I agree, it may be because she's conflicted about her own nature and desires.

Edited by Envie, 15 August 2011 - 11:36 AM.

[Elundin]

Not so much Dany hating, as Dany bored, to be honest. Being a girly girl, I did like Daario and secretly hoped she'd pick him, but she went all queenlike and picked Hizdar. Yes, Dany had to go through a process to learn to be a Queen and a woman and all, but it did drag a lot. It's not the purpose of her arc that did not satisfy me, it was the tempo. If it happened faster, we'd have more room for other plots to evolve a little more.

[Patrick Tully]

I didn't dislike Daario as a character, but I found myself cringing every time Dany thought longingly of him in ADwD. This is the first time I have had such a stong negative reaction to her POVs.

I thought her affair and her marriage were both mistakes, not one or the other.

Edited by Patrick Tully, 15 August 2011 - 12:08 PM.

[Zanzibar]

I think that her whole arc has turned into a horrible soap opera in ADWD. She lived with the Dothraki, recruited Unsullied and then killed all the slave masters of Astapor, then defeated Yunkai and Meereen. And then what? The whole book of "Oh my children, oh this, oh that. Who am I gonna marry? Where is my lover? Oh Missandei, sweet little girl. No ser Barristan, I wont listen to you, ever." Stupid crap. And yeah, Daario is involved a lot in this. If she only slept with him, I would not have problem with that. But when she is thinking of him when she has to think of the war issues, stopping the murders, how to get to Westeros and other important things (and obviously a lot more interesting to the reader), then it gets really boring and annoying. And boredom and annoyance (word?) are the destruction of sympathy. It is known.

[The King in the South]

Hmmm. Personally I hated Ramsay Bolton more than Daario..

[Pipsmom]

I see Daario as a catalyst character.  Dany seems to need a truly outrageous betrayal/injustice to stir her to action.  I think finding Daario's corpse flung over the walls of Meereen via trebuchet will be the final straw for her in the East.  After a thorough roasting of her enemies - on to Westeros, leaving Jhaqo and his khalasar to clean up the mess.

[SecretSquirrel]

I thought they were o.k. It felt like she got too bullied by the harpys and the slaver army. She had a window to clean them out at one point but didn't use it. She tried to bring them all under her influence and make peace, but that wasn't going to happen realisticly, becuase she denied them their customs and means of making a living. From their viewpoint, they were already in the corner she was trying to avoid. Nothing really changed with this. While she tried to make peace, they continued to try and destroy her because they had to.

I see Daario as kind of her subconcious desires being played out. He told her how she could do it differently and be wicked, give in to all the emotions and feelings that felt good. She used him differently than she could of, and so he kind of becomes a minor character when he could have been a darker Mormont, leading an army of Unsullied to finally clear out all the children of the Harpy. It was a darker future, but perhaps it would have made a better, bolder statement in the book.

I think Dany was always headed back to the Dothraki on her black dragon. This was a plot point that would not budge, a steetlamp that the character must appear under at a certain time. So Meereen maybe didn't really matter that much, but just to seperate her from the 2 other dragons, put Tyrion in her debt, and maybe kill off the Dornish prince. I'm sure Barrister the Bold will figure it all out and do what needs to be done.

[A Maidens Fantasy]

That is a great analysis. Made me see some connections I had completely overlooked snoozing through Danys chapters. I agree with you that Daarios role was crucial for Dany, but my main gripe with Daario is his character. Colored beard? Gold tooth? Daggers with woman-shaped handles he caresses all the time? He is just too much  

Granted that may be exactly the way GRRM intended him to be, I just hoped he would have created a character that wasn't so one-dimensional. Come to think of it, maybe I wouldn't dislike Daario so much if it wasn't for Darkstar? If you add Penny, I see a trend: Newer characters that simply doesn't seem to be as well defined as the characters in the earlier books.

/end rant

[Enguerrand]

I find the trouble with Daario being that he never comes alive, he has a blue beard and have the hots for Dany, kills people and talks about killing people alot. I thought he was awesomely introduced in ASOS, yet throughout the story he never gets to know Daario himself which makes it impossible to care about his love story, which is too bad, because it could have been a great one.
The spaying and lobotimizing of Daenerys character doesn't help either.

[Morn of Swording]

part of me wishes i didn't have to hear so much of Dany's inner yearnings for Daario. I wonder what it would have been like if Daario were the POV.

[BoldAsYouPlease]

The Lost Lord, on 15 August 2011 - 08:48 AM, said:

Daario is undoubtedly the most hated character in ADWD. Again and again, posters rail against Dany's stupidity for falling for this blatantly untrustworthy sellsword captain, and against Martin for spending so much time on what they see as an inspid distraction.

But I maintain that Daario has crucial thematic importance for Dany's struggle within herself, which is the heart of her ADWD arc.  Dany opts for political compromise to achieve peace and protect the lives of her "children," but Daario wants to reject this approach in favor of violence, dominance, and taking what one wants. Dany's attraction to Daario is not simply some girlish foolery, but a key indication that some part of Dany is drawn toward Daario's violent approach, and that she is unwilling to completely abandon the "conquerer" side of her own personality that she has symbolically chained with her dragons.

I have no particular issue with Daario - he's simply too uninteresting to hate. Unlike other "dangerous" types such as Drogo, Bronn or Oberyn, Daario comes across as a non-entity. Maybe this is because we only see Daario through the eyes of Daenerys, and her inner musings on Daario blend into the general lack of curiosity and the shallowness of all her POV musings - Daario doesn't love me, he's just using me but I'm so attracted to him, blah, blah. We really don't know anything about the guy.

Tyrion's relationship with Shae was also built on the same foundation of deception, lust and mutual exploitation, but it was told from beginning to end with fewer words and in a far more compelling way. There's still no end in sight for the Dany-Daario saga, and it's gone on too long already. I believe you're right about Daario's importance in Dany's character/plot development, but in my humble opinion, Dany herself is simply too uninteresting a character to consume so many words and so much in-depth analysis.

Edited by BoldAsYouPlease, 15 August 2011 - 02:33 PM.

[Errant Bard]

BoldAsYouPlease, on 15 August 2011 - 02:29 PM, said:

There's still no end in sight for the Dany-Daario saga

Dany sent seven hostages, the admiral whatshiface got killed, then Barristan makes his move and we are told that six catapults have fired bodies in the city. It looks like a pretty definitive end to the saga.

[Apple Martini]

Errant Bard, on 15 August 2011 - 02:54 PM, said:

Dany sent seven hostages, the admiral whatshiface got killed, then Barristan makes his move and we are told that six catapults have fired bodies in the city. It looks like a pretty definitive end to the saga.

Except I'm pretty sure they were flinging diseased corpses into the city, not necessarily the hostages. Barristan thinks that they're hurling rocks to break the city, and the Green Grace says, no, they're hurling corpses (to break the city). They have hundreds, maybe thousands of disease-ridden corpses at their disposal. Classic biological warfare.

But yeah. It's a good analysis in the OP, but I still got annoyed/fed up with the whole thing. I think it's possible to recognize Daario's role in the overarching plot and still dislike him. I've said in other threads that I thought affair felt forced and a little unbelievable, and I stick by that.

[Auska]

Daario

[Wouter]

Ampersand, on 15 August 2011 - 10:58 AM, said:

I disagree that ADWD meant Dany is simply unable to rule in peace. In her last ASOS chapter, Dany reflects on Aegon the Conqueror: how he conquered Westeros with fire and blood but brought peace to its people. If nothing else, this establishes that there's nothing inherent in the Targaryens that make them inept rulers. I think the Dany's rule in Mereen is characterized by the difficulty of ruling well, as well as how out of place Dany is there. Also, after Drogon kills the little girl, Dany is hesitant to use any force whatsoever to solidify her rule; I don't blame her (in her heart, she doesn't want to be a butcher queen, but a mother to her people), but it severely undermines her power.

I agree it isn't said that Dany can't rule in a peaceful way. What ADWD does make clear though, is that she doesn't want to "rule" from a position of relative weakness, she doesn't want to be a puppet queen. I don't think she will be unable/unwilling to make political compromises after ADWD, but she will never again want to hold back on her own assets (like the dragons, the unsullied etc) while accepting demands she does not want to accept. Any further compromises/peace agreements will be on her terms. She may still make concessions, but only as far as she deems them acceptable. In ADWD, she wouldn't have married Hizdahr nor allowed the pits to reopen if not for the fact her enemies were gaining the upper hand on her; however, that does not mean she would have only served "fire and blood" to any of the old slaver families even if she was in full control of the situation. Her compromises would have been far less reaching than the actual ones made though.

This of course depends on her capability to project power, but with her seemingly poised to regain control over her dragons (and with the likelihood of a Barristan victory under the walls of Meereen) she may be in a position of strength from now on till the end of the series (unless the dragon horn of Victarion proves to be a problem for her).