122 replies to this topic

[Wouter]

Apple Martini, on 15 August 2011 - 03:04 PM, said:

Except I'm pretty sure they were flinging diseased corpses into the city, not necessarily the hostages. Barristan thinks that they're hurling rocks to break the city, and the Green Grace says, no, they're hurling corpses (to break the city). They have hundreds, maybe thousands of disease-ridden corpses at their disposal. Classic biological warfare.

Exactly.

One thing I noticed is that Galazze Galare seemed genuinely shocked and afraid that the Yunkai'i were attempting to spread the flux in Meereen this way - something which may speak against her being the Harpy. In any case, she does not seem to be on one line with the Yunkai commanders; those appear to be more interested in breaking and sacking Meereen (as it is a competitor to Yunkai, even if Meereen would revert to its old ways).

[Sevumar]

The Lost Lord, on 15 August 2011 - 08:48 AM, said:

Daario is undoubtedly the most hated character in ADWD. Again and again, posters rail against Dany's stupidity for falling for this blatantly untrustworthy sellsword captain, and against Martin for spending so much time on what they see as an inspid distraction.

I'm not sure he's the most hated character. As one poster mentioned, the Boltons are pretty easy to hate if evil isn't your thing.

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But I maintain that Daario has crucial thematic importance for Dany's struggle within herself, which is the heart of her ADWD arc.  Dany opts for political compromise to achieve peace and protect the lives of her "children," but Daario wants to reject this approach in favor of violence, dominance, and taking what one wants. Dany's attraction to Daario is not simply some girlish foolery, but a key indication that some part of Dany is drawn toward Daario's violent approach, and that she is unwilling to completely abandon the "conquerer" side of her own personality that she has symbolically chained with her dragons.

I think you bring up an interesting point here. Dany's relationship with Daario is a pretty big indicator of how wildly out of sync her personal growth has been. As she says in ACoK, "I am not the frightened girl you met in Pentos. I have counted only fifteen name days, true... but I am as old as the crones of the dosh khaleen and as young as my dragons, Jorah. I have borne a child, burned a khal, and crossed the red waste and the Dothraki Sea. Mine is the blood of the dragon."

She's survived a lot of harrowing situations, dealt with things that would've killed a lot of other people, and experienced more loss and desperation than many people will know in their lives. It's clear that she's learned some lessons from these experiences, but she is not yet equipped to function as an adult head of a noble Westerosi house.

Yet, for all her worldliness, hers remains the heart of a teenage girl. In Dany's chapters, it's very clear that physical attractiveness is the single most important factor in her judgment of any possible romantic partner. She spends the last half of SoS contrasting Daario's physical attributes with Jorah's, obsesseing over the mercenary's blue eyes, and falling in love with his confidence and swagger. There's no lack of cringe-worthy Daario lust moments in ADWD, and he's a prime benchmark by which she measures and rejects Quentyn Martell.

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A Butcher Queen: Let's start with Dany and Daario's first significant interaction in ADWD. Unable to stop the Harpy killings, Dany has just offered to marry Hizdahr if he can stop them for 90 days. Hizdahr's sole interest is reopening the fighting pits Dany despises, and of course Dany feels no attraction to him, so this would entail Dany making two sacrifices in exchange for peace.

I enjoyed reading about Dany agonizing over adopting Daario's suggestions, weighing whether it is worth becoming a butcher to solve the problems of Meereen. It's worth noting that she spends a fair amount of time thinking about and responding to Daario's advice, while she's very quick to dismiss the suggestions of her actual counselors out of hand. There are a few key moments where she could've saved herself and her people a lot of pain by heeding the words of Barristan Selmy and others.

I had hoped to see Dany make better use of Barristan as a window into her family's past and as a source of advice about statecraft. It seems to me that someone truly committed to learning about how to rule would be hungry for knowledge about the ancestors Barristan served. She proves herself close-minded and unwilling to listen to him, while he gives in too easily to her dismissals.

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A Risky Affair: Over her next few chapters Dany rejects violent plans from Groleo and the Shavepate as the foreign threat looms and the pale mare arrives with the Astapori, and commits to the idea of marrying Hizdahr for peace.

The marriage to Hizdahr always seemed like a half-measure to me. She forces herself to do it in service to the ideal of peace, but then shows she's not serious by bedding Daario and making no effort to conceal their relationship. To me, her decision to marry Hizdahr shares a lot in common with the GoT-era decision to have Mirri Maz Duur use blood magic to heal Drogo. Deep down, she knows she's not being honest with herself about the price and outcome of her actions, but she stubbornly persists rather than facing the truth.

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Not Made for Peace: Finally, when peace is achieved, Dany symbolically removes Daario from the playing field by sending him to Yunkai as a hostage. She tells herself, "He will be safer as a hostage. My captain was not made for peace." But of course, it's not only Daario but also Dany who's "not made for peace," as she displays when she grows increasingly antsy over the course of the chapter: "I hate this… How did this happen, that I am drinking and smiling with men I'd sooner flay?… This is peace… This is what I wanted, what I worked for, this is why I married Hizdahr. So why does it taste so much like defeat?

As I said above, the truth about the meaning of her decision begins to dawn on her after it's too late. The peace she's purchased is not worth the price and the heartache, because it won't really change much. She does the same thing to Daario that she did to Jorah Mormont, assigning him the blame for her confused feelings (along with his actual guilt) and punishing him too harshly by sending him away.

She knows the situation can't last, but there's not a clear way forward either.

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A New Approach: In Dany's final chapter, she has a series of visions that lead her to mentally embrace "fire and blood," followed by a literal manifestation of that new approach when Drogon roasts a horse and Dany chows down on it with abandon. She reflects on what she's doing in some of her final sentences in the book.

So in that sentence -- the last thought Dany has in the novel, so obviously of crucial importantance -- Dany seems to have embraced Daario's violent approach over the peaceful political compromise represented by Hizdahr.

I'm not sure if she's "embraced Daario's approach" so much as decided to embrace what she has been fed her entire life as the core of Targaryen identity. I'm not sure it's going to be that simple, though. Being a Targaryen doesn't mean that one must be a conqueror, wielding only fire and blood. To be the blood of the dragon is to possess the blood of Aegon the Conqueror as much as it is to possess the blood of Jaehaerys the Conciliator.

Dany's task is to become a new kind of Targaryen and there are indications that she's already started down that path. Why can't the Targaryen dragon be a dragon of freedom? Why can't a dragon plant trees, build roads, and inspire? From what little we know about Rhaegar, he was preparing himself to be both warrior and statesman. Rhaegar's failure and fall show that it's not an easy path, but it's not Rhaegar we're reading about in ASOIAF. And it's Martin, so it's not going to be a sure rise to greatness.

Dany's strength is her big-picture idealism. She's proven that through the first few books, but what Meereen, Daario, and the dragons have taught her is that she's going to need more than that to succeed. She has to grow out of her sense of entitlement to the throne of Westeros. She has to learn to treat the people close to her with more respect, taking their words to heart and accepting that she needs to discard her old ideas (about the "Usurper's dogs" and many other things). She has to grow up in those areas where ADWD showed that she was still a child.

[The Lost Lord]

I edited the original post to clarify that by "most hated character," I meant the character who posters hate reading about the most and complain about the most. Obviously there are many more evil characters.

Ampersand, on 15 August 2011 - 10:58 AM, said:

I disagree that ADWD meant Dany is simply unable to rule in peace. In her last ASOS chapter, Dany reflects on Aegon the Conqueror: how he conquered Westeros with fire and blood but brought peace to its people.

Wouter, on 15 August 2011 - 03:30 PM, said:

I agree it isn't said that Dany can't rule in a peaceful way. What ADWD does make clear though, is that she doesn't want to "rule" from a position of relative weakness, she doesn't want to be a puppet queen. I don't think she will be unable/unwilling to make political compromises after ADWD, but she will never again want to hold back on her own assets (like the dragons, the unsullied etc) while accepting demands she does not want to accept.

Sevumar, on 15 August 2011 - 03:40 PM, said:

There are a few key moments where she could've saved herself and her people a lot of pain by heeding the words of Barristan Selmy and others.

I think these posts misunderstand the nature of Dany's challenge in Meereen. She was facing an insurgency, and historically there are only two ways to "beat" an insurgency. Either you accommodate enough of their political demands, or you unleash a scorched-earth offensive that kills a ton of innocent people along with them and cows them into submission through sheer terror. Insurgency forces blend in with the populace so they're impossible to isolate, and if you kill their leaders more will take their place -- so dragons can't "beat" an insurgency unless you're prepared to burn down whole neighborhoods. So I dispute the idea that there was any obvious solution to the insurgency that Dany somehow missed. (Barristan's solution was to just leave and let Meereen collapse into chaos and death like Astapor.) She made the appropriate moves toward political compromise, but couldn't tolerate the chaining of her desires for reform, for autonomy in ruling, and for Daario.

How different will things be in Westeros? Like Meereen, Westeros will have various power centers Dany must pacify and there will be certain decisions Dany wants to make that powerful people will resist. You suggest that Dany must rule from a position of strength, but Dany's power comes only from dragons and the only things dragons can do are roast people or intimidate them. (Dany's other potential source of power is a political marriage for the throne, and after her experience with that in ADWD I doubt she'll be in a rush to do that again.) Point is, if Dany gets it in her head that this or that decision is the only right or moral thing to do, I don't see her backing down any more for "peace."

Sevumar, on 15 August 2011 - 03:40 PM, said:

I'm not sure if she's "embraced Daario's approach" so much as decided to embrace what she has been fed her entire life as the core of Targaryen identity... Dany's task is to become a new kind of Targaryen and there are indications that she's already started down that path. Why can't the Targaryen dragon be a dragon of freedom? Why can't a dragon plant trees, build roads, and inspire? …Dany's strength is her big-picture idealism.

Dany has a vision in her last chapter that specifically tells her "]Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.' "Fire and blood."" Also noteworthy in that chapter is that Dany forgets the name of the little girl Drogon killed -- the collateral damage to her conquest. She feels very sad about this but then says that she'll never have a little girl and that dragons are her children. I see this as closure to the booklength arc about Dany's guilt over causing the loss of innocent life. She will retain her idealism in terms of changing the world and freeing the slaves like you say, but I think her response to the loss of innocent life will now be more like "You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs." She wants what she wants, whether it's freeing slaves or screwing sellswords, and she'll take it by force if necessary.

Wouter, on 15 August 2011 - 03:33 PM, said:

One thing I noticed is that Galazze Galare seemed genuinely shocked and afraid that the Yunkai'i were attempting to spread the flux in Meereen this way - something which may speak against her being the Harpy.

There was no evidence that the Harpy and the Yunkai'i were working together. Dany wanted to make peace with the Harpy so Meereen could be united against the foreign threat. The Meereenese nobles don't want to be conquered and ruled by the Yunkai'i.

Patrick Tully, on 15 August 2011 - 12:07 PM, said:

I didn't dislike Daario as a character, but I found myself cringing every time Dany thought longingly of him in ADwD. This is the first time I have had such a stong negative reaction to her POVs.

A Maidens Fantasy, on 15 August 2011 - 01:37 PM, said:

my main gripe with Daario is his character. Colored beard? Gold tooth? Daggers with woman-shaped handles he caresses all the time? He is just too much  

I think the HBO series will have an opportunity to change fans' views of Daario. If they cast someone with real charisma who commands the screen, we will better understand why Dany would fall for him. Plus, Dany's internal fawning over him seems to have annoyed a lot of people -- though I will point out that few are annoyed so viscerally when male narrators fawn over hot women -- so the absence of Dany's thoughts in the show might make this plotline more subtle and bearable for them. I think you're probably right that Martin made his appearance and paraphernalia too over-the-top, so that could be toned down as well.

[LAJN]

It really serves to show how immature Dany still is.

She has the heir to her father's most loyal lord travel across the world to meet her, and she laughs at him because he's somewhat homely and was nicknamed Frog.  She thinks Quentyn is weak when he flinches from a dragon.  Uh, excuse me Dany who hasn't flinched from one of your dragons?  That really bothered me because Quentyn may not get her wet but he deserved a lot more than he got.

Whereas Daario, I am sure this guy's only motivation to help Dany was to bed her.  He wanted to be the guy who could boast about having fucked the dragon queen.  He did go through a lot of trouble to get there, but he likes fighting anyway so it's not like he sacrificed something.  I don't think he'll betray her (if he's still alive) but there's a good chance he'll decide he's had his fill and just ditch her.

As for Daario's importance to Dany's story, I agree with you.  He's there to remind Dany that she is not a benevolent queen but the descendant of Aegon the Conqueror.  When he tells her to butcher her enemies she gets angry because she's trying to be something she's not, which is also symbolically represented by her dragons being chained underground.

[YoungPretender]

If nothing else, he convinced me to give up underwear.

[Auska]

Wouter, on 15 August 2011 - 03:33 PM, said:

One thing I noticed is that Galazze Galare seemed genuinely shocked and afraid that the Yunkai'i were attempting to spread the flux in Meereen this way - something which may speak against her being the Harpy.

Why on earth would the harpy be happy that Mereen's people die off?

[Sevumar]

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I think these posts misunderstand the nature of Dany's challenge in Meereen. She was facing an insurgency, and historically there are only two ways to "beat" an insurgency. Either you accommodate enough of their political demands, or you unleash a scorched-earth offensive that kills a ton of innocent people along with them and cows them into submission through sheer terror. Insurgency forces blend in with the populace so they're impossible to isolate, and if you kill their leaders more will take their place -- so dragons can't "beat" an insurgency unless you're prepared to burn down whole neighborhoods. So I dispute the idea that there was any obvious solution to the insurgency that Dany somehow missed.

I'm not saying she wasn't in a difficult situation in Meereen or that there was a "magic bullet" solution that she failed to see. I think she ended up in a position where she spent a lot of time agonizing over what to do, became paralyzed by fear of failure, and had to make a decision from a much-reduced range of options as a result. Rather, I think she revealed herself as a person unable to rule, one who flees from hard decisions (a move which is telegraphed rather obviously at the end of ASoS).

I also don't think that dealing with an insurgency is such an all-or-nothing proposition. I don't want to get into an extended discussion about real world examples, but the peace process most often starts with the side in power acknowledging the legitimacy of some of the insurgents' demands and using them as a basis for talks. Both sides end up making concessions, but this is not the case in Meereen. Barristan may not have been the best source of advice in this particular case, but she still failed to benefit from his knowledge and experience to the degree she could have.

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How different will things be in Westeros? Like Meereen, Westeros will have various power centers Dany must pacify and there will be certain decisions Dany wants to make that powerful people will resist. You suggest that Dany must rule from a position of strength, but Dany's power comes only from dragons and the only things dragons can do are roast people or intimidate them. (Dany's other potential source of power is a political marriage for the throne, and after her experience with that in ADWD I doubt she'll be in a rush to do that again.) Point is, if Dany gets it in her head that this or that decision is the only right or moral thing to do, I don't see her backing down any more for "peace."

Even Aegon the Conqueror realized that burning down everyone and everything in his way wasn't going to win him an enduring kingdom. Dany isn't yet aware of the great external threat to Westeros and civilization, but I suspect that once she learns, she'll be less inclined to destroy the realm she will be called to protect. Aegon I used diplomacy as much as he used dragonfire to smooth the way to victory and establish the Iron Throne. Dany hasn't yet found that balance, practicing both warfare and statecraft in Meereen without a backbone.

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Dany has a vision in her last chapter that specifically tells her "]Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.' "Fire and blood."" Also noteworthy in that chapter is that Dany forgets the name of the little girl Drogon killed -- the collateral damage to her conquest. She feels very sad about this but then says that she'll never have a little girl and that dragons are her children. I see this as closure to the booklength arc about Dany's guilt over causing the loss of innocent life. She will retain her idealism in terms of changing the world and freeing the slaves like you say, but I think her response to the loss of innocent life will now be more like "You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs." She wants what she wants, whether it's freeing slaves or screwing sellswords, and she'll take it by force if necessary.

I very specifically chose the tree planting imagery to show my disagreement with her interpretation of her visions/hallucinations/internal monologue. The obvious and most glorious moments of Targaryen history are filled with blood and dragonfire, but there were dragons who planted trees, built infrastructure, and set aside the sword to solve conflicts. All her life, she's been told that being the dragon means embracing fire and blood but the dynasty that fire and blood forged has fallen. Certainly, the traditional use of dragons will come into play in her story in Westeros, but I think she will be called on to prove that she can transcend the old Targaryen identity.

Yes, she must accept that people will suffer and die as a result of her actions. That's been the lesson she's been trying to internalize for the first half of the series. I'm saying that the route ahead of her will also require her to destroy her understanding of what it meant to be a Targaryen.

You say that you think she will come to believe that she'll take what she wants by force. I'm saying that her next challenge is a discarding the old definition of "what she wants" (the Iron Throne, restoration of the Targaryen dynasty, and revenge on the enemies who dethroned her mad father) and realizing that she cannot truly be a good ruler until she's willing to give up on most of those goals for the sake of protecting the realm. I don't think she can reconcile the cost of conquering Westeros mercilessly with her seemingly-genuine concern for those she would rule. Ultimately, I see her having to make a decision between allegiance to House Targaryen and the survival/future of the Seven Kingdoms.

[BoldAsYouPlease]

The Lost Lord, on 15 August 2011 - 04:52 PM, said:

I think the HBO series will have an opportunity to change fans' views of Daario. If they cast someone with real charisma who commands the screen, we will better understand why Dany would fall for him. Plus, Dany's internal fawning over him seems to have annoyed a lot of people -- though I will point out that few are annoyed so viscerally when male narrators fawn over hot women -- so the absence of Dany's thoughts in the show might make this plotline more subtle and bearable for them.

You're right that only seeing Daario through Dany's POV is a problem - Dany's POVs are remarkable for their introspection and lack of curiosity about other characters. Dany comes across as a self-absorbed young woman with very little interest in others beyond how they relate to her, and we just don't learn much about Daario to like or hate. The guy could be the next spokesman for Dos Equis but through the veil of Dany's self-regard how would we know? And yes, if Daario is seen through the camera's eye instead of Dany's it could only help, as it did for Shae.

Shae's character suffers from the same defect - Tyrion's POVs are far more interested in other characters and their doings and motivations than Dany's, but Shae is an exception. Tyrion is only interested in Shae to the extent that he can have sex with her, pretend to himself that he might be in love and berate himself for falling for another whore. But the story arc works because it's not still dragging on and because Tyrion himself is a far more intriguing character than Dany.

[Lord Godric]

As long as Daario never steps foot in Westeros, I'm fine with your analysis.  Even if having a consort seems out of character for Dany.

[Xasprtr]

The root of the problem is that Daario offers next to nothing as a character.  He might as well be made of the paper he's written on.  This critical shortcoming poisons the entire plotline.  Hasn't everyone had a friend/family member who suddenly took up with a really lame boyfriend/girlfriend?  Didn't you just not want to hang out with them anymore?  That's what's going on here.

Here's hoping Daario got a free ride on a trebuchet.

[Envie]

Xasprtr, on 15 August 2011 - 07:16 PM, said:

The root of the problem is that Daario offers next to nothing as a character.  He might as well be made of the paper he's written on.  This critical shortcoming poisons the entire plotline.  Hasn't everyone had a friend/family member who suddenly took up with a really lame boyfriend/girlfriend?  Didn't you just not want to hang out with them anymore?  That's what's going on here.

Here's hoping Daario got a free ride on a trebuchet.

Give Mr. Martin some credit here. He rarely creates shallow characters by mistake. There's a lot of 'throwaway' characters in the story and perhaps Daario was meant to be one of them. He may not want us to get too emotionally invested in someone Dany may get close to in Essos because he does intend for her to go back to Westeros. No one from Essos is really going to fit in over there... not Drogo, not Hezzbabba or whatever his name was, and probably not Daario either.

Ok, so Daario's character may seem made of paper - maybe that was the intention of the writer? And yes, I don't want to 'hang out' with Daenerys nearly as much as I did when I first got to know her - but not because she's been banging a rakish sellsword in Meereen. Much bigger reasons I'd like to strangle her.

[Apple Martini]

Wouter, on 15 August 2011 - 03:33 PM, said:

Exactly.

One thing I noticed is that Galazze Galare seemed genuinely shocked and afraid that the Yunkai'i were attempting to spread the flux in Meereen this way - something which may speak against her being the Harpy. In any case, she does not seem to be on one line with the Yunkai commanders; those appear to be more interested in breaking and sacking Meereen (as it is a competitor to Yunkai, even if Meereen would revert to its old ways).

I don't think the Green Grace expressing horror at biological warfare is a knock against her being the Harpy at all. The Harpy's main goal is basically just to get rid of Dany, not destroy the city entirely.

[Ampersand]

The Lost Lord, on 15 August 2011 - 04:52 PM, said:

I think these posts misunderstand the nature of Dany's challenge in Meereen. She was facing an insurgency, and historically there are only two ways to "beat" an insurgency. Either you accommodate enough of their political demands, or you unleash a scorched-earth offensive that kills a ton of innocent people along with them and cows them into submission through sheer terror. Insurgency forces blend in with the populace so they're impossible to isolate, and if you kill their leaders more will take their place -- so dragons can't "beat" an insurgency unless you're prepared to burn down whole neighborhoods. So I dispute the idea that there was any obvious solution to the insurgency that Dany somehow missed. (Barristan's solution was to just leave and let Meereen collapse into chaos and death like Astapor.) She made the appropriate moves toward political compromise, but couldn't tolerate the chaining of her desires for reform, for autonomy in ruling, and for Daario.

Um, I know you had a larger point to make, but the central argument of my post agreed with yours. Not sure why you quoted mine as "misunderstanding" Dany in Mereen. Also, I was speaking on a thematic level more that a practical one.

[Quick Ben]

I don't think the problem is with Daario.  I think the hate for Dany's arc stems from the amount of time spent on it.  The OP had a nice analysis of the relevance of Daario's place in the story, but I think GRRM could have made that point in a far more concise manner.  Personally, I would have enjoyed Dany's story far more if some of the fat was trimmed from her chapters & she got one more chapter in the book.  I really don't care what the contents of the chapter might have been, so long as it gave us a clear indication of what Dany's next move was going to be.  I would have been far less annoyed at Dany's endless pining after Daario if her arc ended with her actually making a plan to move forward with resolving the issues in & around Mereen.  We can speculate about what her next move is going to be all day long, but in the end it would have been more satisfying if we knew she was gathering up a khalasar to go wipe out the invading armies or whatever else it is she's planning to do.

[Wouter]

The Lost Lord, on 15 August 2011 - 04:52 PM, said:

How different will things be in Westeros? Like Meereen, Westeros will have various power centers Dany must pacify and there will be certain decisions Dany wants to make that powerful people will resist. You suggest that Dany must rule from a position of strength, but Dany's power comes only from dragons and the only things dragons can do are roast people or intimidate them. (Dany's other potential source of power is a political marriage for the throne, and after her experience with that in ADWD I doubt she'll be in a rush to do that again.) Point is, if Dany gets it in her head that this or that decision is the only right or moral thing to do, I don't see her backing down any more for "peace."

Which is exactly the point me and some other were making, too. Dany not backing down for "peace" (on the condition that the compromise needed for that would fly against what she thinks is right and just) equals ruling from a position of strength. Because of that strength (indeed, mostly the ability to burn her enemies if she wants to), she can dictate terms instead of getting terms dictated to her. She can still make compromises to be sure, even Aegon the conqueror did as has been pointed out, but there is no need for her to give in on points she considers crucial (like a marriage with someone she doesn't want, or reinstating forms of slavery in the case of Meereen).

The Lost Lord, on 15 August 2011 - 04:52 PM, said:

There was no evidence that the Harpy and the Yunkai'i were working together. Dany wanted to make peace with the Harpy so Meereen could be united against the foreign threat. The Meereenese nobles don't want to be conquered and ruled by the Yunkai'i.

The Harpy and his people did play a role in getting the peace with Yunkai in the first place, though. They are all Ghiscari slaver lords and to some extent they would view their interests as aligned against the foreign, barbaric invader. This suggests the Harpy had at least some influence on the Yunkish side, before the incident in the fighting pit. For the Harpy, it was more a case of uniting the Ghiscari against the foreign threat (Dany).

Maybe something changed with Drogon's actions though, particularly the death of the supreme commander of Yunkai may have played a part here. If the Green Grace would be the Harpy after all, then I suppose she could have been shocked the new Yunkish leaders only want to profit from the situation to take out Meereen once and for all as a competitor to Yunkai. In which case, she would be almost forced to make alliance with Barristan and the Shavepate instead - it's that or let Meereen be destroyed by the Flux and by hunger, same as Astapor was destroyed.

LAJN, on 15 August 2011 - 05:01 PM, said:

As for Daario's importance to Dany's story, I agree with you.  He's there to remind Dany that she is not a benevolent queen but the descendant of Aegon the Conqueror.  

I disagree; Dany is a benevolent queen, at least from her perspective and mostly from mine as well (and certainly from the POV of most of the slaves in slaver's bay, as well). She's not Ramsay Bolton, she's not even like Tywin Lannister (who was a good administrator but very cruel in war, and can't overall be termed "benevolent" allthough he can be effective in ruling). Hell, while Aegon was a conqueror even he wasn't necesarily malevolent. One of the more intriguing pieces of info in ADWD is that he fought in a "coalition of the willing" (including the Storm King of Westeros) against Volantis, so he may have taken an anti-slavery position already back then. He certainly didn't reinstate a Valyrian like empire in Westeros, and arguably the unification was longterm in the interests of Westeros allthough there was a lot of death in the shorth term. It seems to me the government of Jaehaerys the Concilliator was probably a golden age for westeros as a whole.

[The Lost Lord]

Wouter, on 16 August 2011 - 05:54 AM, said:

She can still make compromises to be sure, even Aegon the conqueror did as has been pointed out, but there is no need for her to give in on points she considers crucial (like a marriage with someone she doesn't want, or reinstating forms of slavery in the case of Meereen).

That's the question. What will Dany consider "crucial" and worth roasting her enemies over? You suggest only certain big things, my guess is "a lot of things." If she arrives in Westeros and finds "Aegon" on the Iron Throne, will she do a power-sharing deal with him, or will she decide she doesn't trust the mummer's dragon and set Westeros on fire?

Wouter, on 16 August 2011 - 05:54 AM, said:

Which is exactly the point me and some other were making, too. Dany not backing down for "peace" (on the condition that the compromise needed for that would fly against what she thinks is right and just) equals ruling from a position of strength. Because of that strength (indeed, mostly the ability to burn her enemies if she wants to), she can dictate terms instead of getting terms dictated to her.

I would steer you back to my original post in response -- Daario. In the 4th-to-last sentence of Dany's final chapter in ADWD she specifically embraces Daario over Hizdahr. Daario does not represent "benevolent rule through greater strength," he represents killing all your real and potential enemies in ruthless ways. When Dany starts to think to herself "Daario was right" that does not give me great confidence that she will only use force judiciously, to bolster her own good goals.

Wouter, on 16 August 2011 - 05:54 AM, said:

The Harpy and his people did play a role in getting the peace with Yunkai in the first place, though… This suggests the Harpy had at least some influence on the Yunkish side, before the incident in the fighting pit

Shavepate said the Yunkai'i backed down because they didn't want to fight dragons. I don't see how a Yunkai'i conquest of Meereen helps the Meereenese nobles. If the Yunkai'i take the city, they would rule it themselves.

Sevumar, on 15 August 2011 - 06:43 PM, said:

Rather, I think she revealed herself as a person unable to rule, one who flees from hard decisions (a move which is telegraphed rather obviously at the end of ASoS).

She made the decisions but she was unhappy with them and eventually rejected them (by screwing Daario and throwing off her Meereenese garments at the fighting pits). She was not prepared to compromise what she wanted.

Sevumar, on 15 August 2011 - 06:43 PM, said:

I also don't think that dealing with an insurgency is such an all-or-nothing proposition. I don't want to get into an extended discussion about real world examples, but the peace process most often starts with the side in power acknowledging the legitimacy of some of the insurgents' demands and using them as a basis for talks. Both sides end up making concessions, but this is not the case in Meereen.

Arguably letting Dany remain at all is a concession by the insurgency. She is not Meereenese, what right does she have to be there?

Sevumar, on 15 August 2011 - 06:43 PM, said:

Even Aegon the Conqueror realized that burning down everyone and everything in his way wasn't going to win him an enduring kingdom. Dany isn't yet aware of the great external threat to Westeros and civilization, but I suspect that once she learns, she'll be less inclined to destroy the realm she will be called to protect… I'm saying that her next challenge is a discarding the old definition of "what she wants" (the Iron Throne, restoration of the Targaryen dynasty, and revenge on the enemies who dethroned her mad father) and realizing that she cannot truly be a good ruler until she's willing to give up on most of those goals for the sake of protecting the realm.

Ampersand, on 15 August 2011 - 10:58 AM, said:

The easy way out for Martin would be to make her a savior of Westeros, coming to defend them from the Others, using a kind of redemptive violence to satisfy both aspects of her personality. However, Martin tends not to take the easy way

You both make good points, though I am more inclined toward Ampersand's view. Dany sacrificing her own ambitions to save the realm seems altruistic and not in tune with GRRM's worldview.

Sevumar, on 15 August 2011 - 06:43 PM, said:

The obvious and most glorious moments of Targaryen history are filled with blood and dragonfire, but there were dragons who planted trees, built infrastructure, and set aside the sword to solve conflicts. All her life, she's been told that being the dragon means embracing fire and blood but the dynasty that fire and blood forged has fallen. Certainly, the traditional use of dragons will come into play in her story in Westeros, but I think she will be called on to prove that she can transcend the old Targaryen identity.

I just don't think there's enough time left in the series for Dany to learn these things. The time to learn them would have been ADWD. She obviously has not learned these skills yet, and by all indications the final two books of the series will be a bloodbath. When will she develop these skills? In an epilogue?

Ampersand, on 15 August 2011 - 07:59 PM, said:

Um, I know you had a larger point to make, but the central argument of my post agreed with yours. Not sure why you quoted mine as "misunderstanding" Dany in Mereen. Also, I was speaking on a thematic level more that a practical one.

Sorry if I misinterpreted. You quoted the last chapter of ASOS re: Dany's thoughts about Aegon I, but in my view that was the ideal that Dany held in the beginning of ADWD but lost over the course of the book -- she did conquer Meereen through fire and blood and she did then try to bring peace, but she hated and eventually rejected the peace once she had achieved it. I agree that Dany in TWOW will not mirror Dany in ASOS -- in ASOS she thought she could conquer by killing only "the bad people" (slavers), in TWOW I think she will be far less discriminate.

[Golden Skull]

Good analysis, but as to Dario being the most hated character, I would direct your attention to Darkstar... he is of the night.

But seriously there is a connection between these two characters insofar as they seem tailored to be cool, but it comes off as a contrivance. Unlike characters like Drogo, Bronn, the Hound, and Oberyn Martell, these characters have little to them other than "look I'm dangerous and sexy." This makes them seem more like plot devices than characters. Even if Dario's purpose is to keep Dany in touch with her dragon's blood, it is unsatisfactory, because his entire existence is this. He has no agenda of his own, just as Darkstar entire purpose was to cut off an ear.
In contrast, the Red Viper's character was partially a plot device for Tyrion to have a champion after his arrest, but he has personal motivations that are independent of Tyrion.

[Whatever]

okay, so.. i don't know how is possible that i'm writing this but i've reconsidered dany's plotline. A little. I mean, i still don't like her, but i don't hate her as i used to....The whole "people have the right to be wrong, so they can learn from their mistakes" thing.
What ios wrong with me?
Of course, Dany's plotline includes Daario. I hate when dany spends half her POV thinking about him, i hate when she's being moony and incredibly horny, but i've never really disliked Daario. I know, he's a vain fool and, IMO, he doesn't even "know" dany as a person (yet he loves what she represents), but his character  gives us a measure of how screwed up dany actually is. Also, he's almost always right and hopefully all this mess will make dany grow up a little.



....
(Of course, i'm assuming daario is dead/gone, Please, i can't stand dany's "oooooh, daario is smokin hot" any longer)

[Pepi]

Btw... I dunno if this is the right topic, or not, but is there any chance that Jaqen H'ghar is actually Daario Naharis? I mean... the apearances are kinda similar. Gold tooth, and hooked nose?

[The King of Ashes]

I do think the whole plotline is a kind of foreshadowing for how she is going to deal with Westeros. She's attempted compromise and political marriage for peace and stability and it failed, miserably. I think it was definitely required for her development but it's a shame it had to be so tedious. But still, her inner monologue in the last chapter is a pretty good indication of how she's going to behave when she arrives in King's Landing.