[ADWD Spoilers] Bran's Endgame

[slayer420]

underground river...

yea GRRM make way to much of the caves, and the fact that they were exploreing them and they go on and on, the talk about people being lost. I think summer will lead them thur to south of the wall somewhere. Also bran could look into the tree for the map thur the caves.

[Aress]

yea GRRM make way to much of the caves, and the fact that they were exploreing them and they go on and on, the talk about people being lost. I think summer will lead them thur to south of the wall somewhere. Also bran could look into the tree for the map thur the caves.

I must admit I hadn't thought of the caves/rivers.

I guess it's possible. I'm still inclined to believe Bran is most needed exactly where he is in order to marshall the tree armies, and coordinate whatever he needs to coordinate to battle the Others.

[Team Wildings]

I must admit I hadn't thought of the caves/rivers.

I guess it's possible. I'm still inclined to believe Bran is most needed exactly where he is in order to marshall the tree armies, and coordinate whatever he needs to coordinate to battle the Others.

What about the idea that Bran will go darkside?

[Dragons Dancing]

I do not believe that Bran will end as a tree by the end of the series. If he lives to the end, he has the opportunity to live again in the world of humans returning to the cavern when he is old. I agree that there may be an opportunity for him to leave via the caverns or underground river that may well take him south of the wall. Blood seems to be a part of all of the religions so I wasn't surprised when it was introduced in the Old Gods. I did have an ick feeling when it appeared that Bran was eating and drinking blood as a part of his learning.

I hope that Bloodraven is not "evil". Despite the blood business, he has served the Kingdom and now along with the Children appears to be serving the kingdom of humans. Regardless of his methods I doubt he is evil. Bran however may not agree with his plans for him.

Bran should be able to communicate with Jon, Arya, and Rickon either through their dreams, the ravens, or the trees. I am wondering if Bloodraven has an obsidian communication device that will allow Bran to communicate more broadly to say someone like Marwyn or Sam. This could be very important for the final resolution.

Bran has the most potential at this point to be pivotal in the war with the Others and George can play this many ways. I am so looking forward to Bran's future POV's.

[Danny Dayne]

I posted this in a different thread today, so apologies for everyone who's seeing it twice.

Among other things, I think Bran will turn out to be the narrator. I thought of this when the Children started talking about the songs of the earth. That to me sounded like "song of ice and fire," so it made me wonder if the whole book series is intended as a tale told by the children of the forest--and then another poster mentioned that Bran has the first named chapter in the series and suggested he'll have the last. I think that's absolutely correct, and that it'll turn out he's "telling" us this story, long after the fact, having seen all the past and present events through the trees and through other visions.

I also think he'll have other things to do along the way, though.

That was my first thought as well; either that or its the biggest red herring of all time...

[Kissed.By.Fire]

Wasn't Varamyr taught that human warging was like a cardinal sin by the other wildlings though? Brand didn't really have that luxury. I definitely agree there is something morally wrong with warging into another human, but I can't remember the times he has done it. He accidentally did it in the tower when the wildlings were outside, and he did it one time to fight off the others (I don't fault him for those), but its not like he was really taking advantage of Hodor, he was doing it to help them both.

There are probably other times I am forgetting though, in which case....yeah that's not cool.

He actually wargs into Hodor frequently to explore the tunnels and such in the caves. I agree that it doesn't seem right at all, especially because he seems to do it more and more as time goes on. I wonder though why Bloodraven hasn't mentioned it to Bran if it is supposed to be such a cardinal sin. Wouldn't that be one of the first things he would want to tell Bran? Wouldn't Bloodraven, with his thousand eyes and one, know that Bran was doing it?

Every time I read the Bran chapters in ADwD I get an uneasy feeling about Bloodraven and the CotF. As much as I got the sense from ADwD that Bran would be staying in the cave for the rest of his life to become part of a tree, it doesn't seem to fit when you think of ASoIaF as a whole. GRRM seems to show us how people with disadvantages or peculiarities (i.e.: Tyrion, Brienne, Jon, etc.) can overcome their problems and make a place for themselves in the world. I don't see how Bran being a tree does that. Maybe we just haven't seen the full extent of what Bloodraven-as-a-tree can do, but so far it seems like he just does a lot of sitting and watching, like a couch potato glued to the TV. So far I'm unimpressed.

[The Greatmatt]

The more and more I read on theories floating around about endgame, the more and more I've noticed that everyone seems to have given up on Bran. "He's a tree," they say, and that's it.

Let me pose this--why would Bran's endgame already be set? Jon is possibly dead, Dany isn't even in Westeros, Sansa is chilling in the Vale poised to strike, Tyrion is in chains, and Arya is still in training.

It's highly unlikely that Bran will end up in a dark cave underground, warging into things as he pleases. There is not another living major character, even a minor one, that has reached endgame status. Why would Bran?

There seems to be a lot of forshadowing that all is not as it seems in the lovely land of the CotF. Bran's final chapter ends with a ritualistic human sacrifice and he can "taste the blood." Bran is young and naive, but he does make difficult choices when forced to.

As for the OEC, is there ANY evidence that he was someone to be trusted? In the D&E stories he seems to rule through fear an intimidation. His best interests very well might not be Bran's. We've been led to believe that OEC was a "good guy" here to help Bran break the chains, but what if those chains are the tree roots, and the crow was trying to secure them? Between the cannibalism, Jonjen's realization of death, and the questionable motives of the CotF/OEC, I think we have a lot more to settle with Bran. I'm not convinced that he will be in the cave, in the same spot, by the end of the series.

So please, all you Jonjens out there; don't give up on Bran just yet.

Well I think there are a few factors going on here:

1) Bran has not been set up as one of the major drivers of the plot. This isn't to say that he can't have an effect going forward (he will), but it would be a major change of pace if he become a more typical kind of leader.

2) He's immature and paralyzed. Again, about the last person to become a leader through physical proximity.

3) He's spent the past 4 books essentially leaving the physical proximity of everyone else. If he can just hop back down and be in the middle of the fray, that's kind of lame.

4) He's just been given a way to be everywhere at once and wield huge power. Why would he get that power, and then begin a physical journey?

5) Bloodraven just told him he'd never walk again. Why would we have this whole setup to make clear that Bran's future is not as a physical being...just to have him act like a physical being?

I expect Bran will gradually increase in power. He's act as eyes and ears and communicate to one or more of his siblings. He'll eventually start controlling a remote army. And he'll also give us fans a lot of deep background answers that we crave so much. I also expect that his will be the last POV of the series, letting him be both the alpha and omega of it, and giving him a unique prominence without having to have him surpass other characters as the one we actually spend the most time with.

[TheMalcolm]

I am quite sure Bran will stay in that cave for next 500 years or so.

Does it make any difference where your mortal corpse lays if you are going to spend 99% of your time in virtuality? It's another Matrix.

[Elundin]

Bran's storyline is fascinating to High Fantasy fans. There's only three elements of magic in Westeros, and he is one it of: the dragons, the priests of Rhollor and the treehugging hippies (wildfires are alchemists tricks not "real" magic). And he's the treehugger. With that being said, I don't like the idea of him riding a dragon or warging into a dragon. There's characters enough set out for this role. I also don't like the idea of him turning into a major strategist for the upcoming war, cause he is too young and inexperienced, even if he grew up as a Stark. He can serve though, and will have an imperative role in the war with the Others, in alerting everyone and allowing information to flow. He will be the Westeros' secret service!!! Yeah, I can live with that :lol:

[Xasprtr]

I predict - he's a tree.

In other words, I think he will be stuck there. I think that, while sometimes creepy, what is going on in the cave is basically above board. Without some massive betrayal, there is no reason for him to leave, ever, unless he is just as powerful anywhere. Being a crippled boy, that is, being Bran, is not so appealing, especially given conditions outside. Might as well stay and be something else; many something elses. Compare to Arya's journey from being Arya Stark to being No One and capable of assuming many identities. Being Arya Stark just isn't that appealing anymore.

Then again, a little part of me has always seen Bran as the Lord of Winterfell. I take it all back.

[Ainara]

What about the idea that Bran will go darkside?

that's the one thought that has been terrifying me since the ending of SoS.

[Aress]

What about the idea that Bran will go darkside?

Why do you think he might go over to the darkside?

Have I missed something? Are CoTF considered to be the darkside? Or is Bloodraven the darkside?

Just because we don't understand a whole lot about them yet, doesn't mean they are dark per se. If anything, I got the feeling they are the unsung heroes of Westeros.

[MinotaurWarrior]

My speculation:

Bran will never be just a tree. He'll be a wolf, a mammoth, a swamp dragon, an ape, a golden eagle and everything else that runs, swims, crawls, slithers, or flies. This isn't depressing, or trapping, its freeing. He can run faster than any man, jump higher, and for gods sake he can fly. If he wants to have a chat with one of his siblings, all he needs to do is slip into the skin of a crow. Now, yes, there are some downsides, like his inevitably disturbing sex life (either a four-thousand year old virgin, or some weird sort of bestiality thing), but that was pretty much inevitable, given his paralyzed lower half.

The CotF are f'd up, but not in some child-sacrificing mustache-twirling way. To me, the big give-away isn't the dark caverns or creepy speeches, it's the fact that they respond to the extermination of whole sapient life forms by singing sad songs. Imagine if instead of fighting WWII, we just talked about how the holocaust and rape of Nanking were really sad. What would you say about such people? Clearly they have different values, but I really don't think they're 'evil'.

Jojen and Meera have no tree to meld with, no animals to become, and no one to talk with. They're going to try and flee the caves, and perhaps already have.

Bran is in a similar position as Dany. He's unlocked what makes him special, but he has not yet mastered it, and he hasn't gotten the bodies under his command into proper position yet.

[Quick Ben]

I was thinking that the easiest way to get Bran or Meera & Jojen out of the caves is to use something similar to what they found under the Nightfort. when they entered the tree in the well on one side of the wall, they emerged on the other side of the wall. If that doorway was essentially a means to magically transport them from one location to another, why couldn't there be more doorways? It stands to reason that the CotF were involved in creating the doorway under the wall, as the Night's Watch hasn't shown any proclivity for magic thus far, and the CotF seem to be intimately involved with the magic attributed to the weirwood trees. Although the door under the wall only opened for the NW, doorways not located at the wall wouldn't necessarily have the same opening requirements. If the doorway theory is correct, the Isle of Faces would be my guess for the most likely place for an exit. Since the Reed's story I've always had the feeling that the isle was going to be significant later in the story. Maybe Howland Reeds time on the island gave him some advance knowledge of events, or maybe Jojen inherited his greendreaming ability from his father who perhaps has already communicated with the CotF. That would also explain why Howland followed Ned south as he knew he was going to win, & didn't follow Rob as he knew he was doomed from the start. I don't know if someone else has suggested this before, but at least some of it would make sense in so far as allowing the kids stuck in the caves to leave them safely.

[Tynidian]

Does anyone have a copy of ADWD at hand? I was wondering about the descriptions of (the climates of) the crypts at Winterfell and the cave where he is now. I remember the climate in the crypts of winterfell is mentioned over and over again, does it match that of the cave in the north (further than cave climates would :P, by repeating the exact wording or something like that).

Some how I think Bran will return to the crypts of Winterfell. Could be, as mentioned in earlier posts, as a way of passage from beyond the wall.

Another option for Bran, along the parallel with the Bran the Blessed and Tower of Londen (previously discussed on the boards), would be to return to the crypts of Winterfell after a battle in which he is grievously wounded. There to find a weirwood throne which keeps him alive. From there, beneath the old tower, he could forever after protect the north from an invasion of the Others.

Just because GRRM found so many other things he liked in the same myth.

(brining up old stuff, I know, but I got enthousiastic after visiting the Tower this weekend. :rolleyes: )

[Elundin]

Does anyone have a copy of ADWD at hand? I was wondering about the descriptions of (the climates of) the crypts at Winterfell and the cave where he is now. I remember the climate in the crypts of winterfell is mentioned over and over again, does it match that of the cave in the north (further than cave climates would :P, by repeating the exact wording or something like that).

Some how I think Bran will return to the crypts of Winterfell. Could be, as mentioned in earlier posts, as a way of passage from beyond the wall.

Oh oh, what if the cave connects to the crypts in Winterfell......? We don't know where the cave ends, theres an underground river, it may be very long....I somehow seem to recall a certain raven in Bran's visions pointing him towards the crypts? Maybe it wasn't just a sign of where to hide when the boogieman came? Maybe it was a subtle hint as to where Bran was supposed to go to find his fate....?

I should loosen a little on the medication I think. Or this forum. The more I read the more I come up with weird stuff... :tantrum:

[Buster52]

I think Bran's still got a huge role to play, however it shakes out. If he's going to be a tree eventually, please let his weirwood throne be under Winterfell, George.

Bran can merely see and speak through the trees, and I get the impression he can see through any tree,once he has the experience. I don't think he will actually become a tree.

[Ygritte]

Oh oh, what if the cave connects to the crypts in Winterfell......? We don't know where the cave ends, theres an underground river, it may be very long....I somehow seem to recall a certain raven in Bran's visions pointing him towards the crypts? Maybe it wasn't just a sign of where to hide when the boogieman came? Maybe it was a subtle hint as to where Bran was supposed to go to find his fate....?

I should loosen a little on the medication I think. Or this forum. The more I read the more I come up with weird stuff... :tantrum:

This would be awesome.

[Aress]

My speculation:

Bran will never be just a tree. He'll be a wolf, a mammoth, a swamp dragon, an ape, a golden eagle and everything else that runs, swims, crawls, slithers, or flies. This isn't depressing, or trapping, its freeing. He can run faster than any man, jump higher, and for gods sake he can fly. If he wants to have a chat with one of his siblings, all he needs to do is slip into the skin of a crow. Now, yes, there are some downsides, like his inevitably disturbing sex life (either a four-thousand year old virgin, or some weird sort of bestiality thing), but that was pretty much inevitable, given his paralyzed lower half.

The CotF are f'd up, but not in some child-sacrificing mustache-twirling way. To me, the big give-away isn't the dark caverns or creepy speeches, it's the fact that they respond to the extermination of whole sapient life forms by singing sad songs. Imagine if instead of fighting WWII, we just talked about how the holocaust and rape of Nanking were really sad. What would you say about such people? Clearly they have different values, but I really don't think they're 'evil'.

Jojen and Meera have no tree to meld with, no animals to become, and no one to talk with. They're going to try and flee the caves, and perhaps already have.

Bran is in a similar position as Dany. He's unlocked what makes him special, but he has not yet mastered it, and he hasn't gotten the bodies under his command into proper position yet.

This.

Except for the WWII analogy.

[Bommes]

My speculation:

The CotF are f'd up, but not in some child-sacrificing mustache-twirling way. To me, the big give-away isn't the dark caverns or creepy speeches, it's the fact that they respond to the extermination of whole sapient life forms by singing sad songs. Imagine if instead of fighting WWII, we just talked about how the holocaust and rape of Nanking were really sad. What would you say about such people? Clearly they have different values, but I really don't think they're 'evil'.

Huh? Where do you get THAT from? When the First Men landed in Westeros they fought heavy wars against the CotF, of course for the most part it is only reported in myths and other unreliable sources, but I think that it is made clear that the CotF actually tried to do EVERYTHING they can to save and preserve nature and everything it contains. After they forged a peace pact (after unknown times of war - probably decades or centuries) with the First Men they even started to introduce them to the Old Gods and Warging and all that stuff to bring them closer to nature.

It just got out of their possibilities at some point, because after the war against the others they had massive number problems and some time after that the Andals came and they didn't care about the CotF, so they got persecuted everywhere, up to the point where they could only hide and live in a cave, far remote in the north. I think the religion itself was always very connected to the earth and darkness, but it only got stronger there :) I also don't think it has anything to do with evilness. But you never know. Religions and traditions can grow to very fanatic stuff if you are excluded from other societies/opinions.