MaesterWinters, on 28 October 2011 - 11:16 PM, said:
Thanks for the thoughtful response.
1. What bothers me is that it's hard for me to say that LF would have known with enough certainty that he would come out ahead in the end. As it turns out events have worked greatly in his favor, but there's no way he could have anticipated it. And I think you can see that he's setting the Vale up to profit as all the other powers mutually destroy themselves, but a weakened seven kingdoms might not be able to survive winter, offshores invaders, or the unknown and unexpected Others. None of which he may care about, but I would expect him to be a bit more grounded concerning so much uncertainty.
2. So I sort of wonder if he may not be affiliated with another group with an interest in seeing Westeros weakened by internal strife. Sounds a little strange and heaven knows there are enough plots and interests in the books already, but I find it hard to accept that he would take on such a great responsibility completely of his own initiative.
3. And just to be clear, thirteen on thirty+ may have been more acceptable by the standards of Westeros, but LFs not interested in the emotional side of it, he's specifically about the deflowering because of his failure in that endeavor with Cat (which is why he has no concern about marrying her off later), and that's before you get into the mental undressing and uncalled for touching before Sansa had come of age.
You're certainly welcome. LF is an intriguing topic, much fun to puzzle over, so I had a go at it. Now, response. (I broke yours up into 3 parts so I could reply to each without it being confusing).
1. I see LF as being the sort of person to consider all outcomes, and to consider them, and keep the ones that work at present, and set aside the others as thoughts for later if he has to change up his strategy. In fact I think he’s prepared several “escape routes” or “next turns” for himself in advance, not even knowing which of them would become the most likely. I didn’t write it correctly, but I was not trying to say that he forsaw his exploitation of the Vale right from the beginning. My view on it was that he knew obvs that Lysa was in the Vale, and considering he was in on Jon Arryn’s demise, that she would be widowed, and the sort of regent for her son. It would have been a side thought in Petyr’s mind. It might not be a situation he could break into in GoT era, but he knew that perhaps down the road, that might be plausible for him if the fates gave him that opportunity.
2. It’s certainly possible that he is affiliated with outside groups, as Varys has clearly gone down that road. I would say there’s a midding chance of that. I am more inclined to believe he acts on his own whims, however, just by his personality. I think it’s precisely the magnitude of what he’s trying to take on that is going to be his downfall. He’ll have his fingers in too many pies. Juggling too many balls; one has to fall and then all come down. House of cards. All those metaphors and more is what I forsee for him.
I don't think in the novels it was explicitly stated he knew about the Varys-Illyrio meeting. I'm pretty sure that's just tv canon (it's harder to do nuances on screen so they have to make some things more obvious)
3. I’m aware, hehe, but there is still a definite air of creepiness to him, probably just because it’s unwanted attention on Sansa’s end.
Warlock Vetolgar, on 29 October 2011 - 11:33 PM, said:
Well, Littlefinger is the series' bonafide champion chessmaster, so even if it seems unlikely he could have foressen everything that happened, we can always abide by the rule of cool and say he's as lucky as he is skillful and leave it at that. We won't know for sure until the story comes to an end, anyway.
Very true. Hehe. I'm quite interested in seeing how it all ends up, if it's A: anything like I thought, B: or if he goes on to more and more success, or C: if his downfall just comes later than I anticipated.
Vapor, on 07 November 2011 - 09:23 AM, said:
I think Littlefinger is playing the Game perfectly. I haven't had a re-read since finishing the 5th yet, though I'd read 1-4 twice beforehand.
He sets everything up perfectly, they even make mention of him throughout the latter books with both Cersei and Kevan wishing Littlefinger was still around in Kings Landing for the way he can pluck coin from thin air, this makes him seem less likely to all of them that he's really playing the Game, everyone but Tyrion believes he's only a small time player, and no one is taking him seriously. Especially in the books themselves, GRRM was a Genius just to let Littlefingers arc seem like it was going nowhere in particular throughout the first 3 books, even when he betrayed Ned, I myself the first time thought that was just out of his love for Catelyn, now I think it was all part of his plan.
I do wonder how much he knew of the Varys/Targaryen friendship though, he mentions (albeit I only remember this from the TV Show, can't seem to recall it being mentioned in the books) that he saw Varys with Illyrio, which makes me wonder how much of that he knows about. I'm sure we will find out soon but the way he's playing it seems perfect. I wonder if Varys even knows what Littlefinger is up to, personally think Littlefinger knows more than Varys wants him to, which should give Littlefinger the upper hand between those two.
I think Littlefinger has a knack of befriending people too, he can make people trust him even if they really shouldn't. This could prove vital over the final two books. I can't wait to see how it all turns out!
I'm doing a re-read of GoT currently, and I notice so many more places with little nuggets of info about LF that I wish I had taken notice of the last time I read. George RR did do an amazing job with LF's arc, I agree. It was so on the down-low, and yet it was also always right there in front of our faces to some extent. And now like a sleeping giant, he's woken up and taken charge, yet STILL maintained some immunity as people (mostly KL folk) STILL don't worry their little heads over the likes of him.
I'm thinking in WoW, as it's been confirmed we're getting POV's from Sansa (and thus seeing what's going on, Vale-side) that something is going to go belly up either:
A) with the plan to marry Sansa to Harry The Heir
Someone on the outside is going to realize "Oh wait, if you think about it, things have been suspiciously quiet and peaceful over in the Vale. Maybe we should go "check on" that."
C) The Vale Lords turn out to not have put all their trust in LF, and plot against him to his downfall.
D) Sansa pulls a turn-and-run.