86 replies to this topic

[Kennit]

I like to toy with the idea that Jon(on the account that he didn't really die) is the new night's king, with Melisandre being his bride(there are hints in her POV that Great Other is trying to reach her through her dreams). With the Others at his back, he will ride back to Winterfell and claim his birthright to become the new lord/king of the North(he does dream a lot about being the lord of Winterfell, I don't think it's there for no reason).

Yeah, I know, there is the human-sacrifice-for-the-Others(plus them being[supposedly] the ultimate evil) thing, but remember that both the Old Gods and Rhellor aren't any better, as they both demand the same thing(we learn that about the Old Gods in Davos's chapter and Bran's weirwood visions).


What do you think?

Edited by Kennit, 17 August 2011 - 08:16 AM.

[TheEvilKing]

That would be awesome.

[ICE CROW]

Interesting i just don't see Jon getting Winterfell, i feel like george has a very bittersweet ending for Jon. He will become a true hero and a Legend but he ends up have a solitary heros future.

[Zeromus]

Once he separates his consciousness from Nighteyes, Jon will be too busy plotting his revenge on Prince Regal to worry about the Others.

[Zezibesh]

Kennit, on 17 August 2011 - 01:54 AM, said:

but remember that both the Old Gods and Rhellor aren't any better, as they both demand the same thing(we learn that about the Old Gods in Davos's chapter and Bran's weirwood visions).

Do they? Can't say about R'hllor, but I haven't seen any proof that the "Old Gods" would demand human sacrifice. Seems like a big misinterpretation like the whole Old Gods deal altogether, because they aren't actually gods.

[Kennit]

Zezibesh, on 17 August 2011 - 06:27 AM, said:

Do they? Can't say about R'hllor, but I haven't seen any proof that the "Old Gods" would demand human sacrifice. Seems like a big misinterpretation like the whole Old Gods deal altogether, because they aren't actually gods.

Yes, it becomes evident in ADWD that the First Men made blood sacrifice to the heart trees, gods or not.

Quote

“Then a long cruel winter fell,” said Ser Bartimus. “The White Knife froze hard, and even the firth was icing up. The winds came howling from the north and drove them slavers inside to huddle round their fires, and whilst they warmed themselves the new king come down on them. Brandon Stark this was, Edrick Snowbeard’s great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes. He took the Wolf’s Den back, stripped the slavers naked, and gave them to the slaves he’d found chained up in the dungeons. It’s said they hung their entrails in the branches of the heart tree, as an offering to the gods. The old gods, not these new ones from the south. Your Seven don’t know winter, and winter don’t know them.”
Davos could not argue with the truth of that. From what he had seen at Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, he did not care to know winter either. “What gods do you keep?” he asked the one-legged knight.
“The old ones.” When Ser Bartimus grinned, he looked just like a skull. “Me and mine were here before the Manderlys. Like as not, my own forebears strung those entrails through the tree.”
“I never knew that northmen made blood sacrifice to their heart trees.”
“There’s much and more you southrons do not know about the north,” Ser Bartimus replied.

Davos 3.



And there is Bran's vision:

Quote

a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white - haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickel in her hand.
"No", said Bran, "no, don`t", but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man`s feet drummed against the earth... but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

[Prince of the North]

Yes, but just because something was "offered" it doesn't necessarily mean that it was ever "demanded".  I think it's a bit more complicated than that

[TheEvilKing]

Zeromus, on 17 August 2011 - 06:15 AM, said:

Once he separates his consciousness from Nighteyes, Jon will be too busy plotting his revenge on Prince Regal to worry about the Others.

I see what you did there.

[Kennit]

Prince of the North, on 17 August 2011 - 09:27 AM, said:

Yes, but just because something was "offered" it doesn't necessarily mean that it was ever "demanded".  I think it's a bit more complicated than that

Same can be said about sacrifice to the Others.  

[dreamcatcher]

Melisandre his bride? I don't see that happening. Melisandre already said that Jon'll never love her, and there is no reason for a political marriage.

[kg1982]

If Jon thought it sucked being Lord Commander, wait until he morphs into a legendary hero/ rightful heir to the Iron Throne.  That's going up the isolation he faces to 11.  I do think that he ends up feeling that his own identity is a Stark and Jon Snow, but that doesn't mean that everybody else does.  

I see two sort of bittersweet endings.  

1.  Jon is mortally wounded.  However, he ends up dying in Winterfell surrounded by his brothers and sisters and is interred next to Ned and Robb in Winterfell's vault.  He gets to hug all his siblings one last time and see that they are cared for.  The rest of the Stark children go on to do great things.  

2.  Jon becomes king or an uber adviser to the independent seven kingdoms.  I think that this could be a bit fantasy cliche, but I could see a path for it to be interesting.  Jon loses his identity as a Stark, which he finally decided to embrace.  Songs are sung about brave Prince Rhaegar's sacrifice and Jon Targaryen, TPTWP, not about Jon Snow and everything his father, Ned Stark, taught him.  He's basically isolated from all his Night's Watch friends and his step-siblings, because everyone treats him differently.  He and Dany have a relationship, but it is short-term.  I think that Jon ends up being Dany's betrayal for love, which doesn't bode well for a long-term relationship.  Jon ends up with some sort of political marriage.  So Jon gets the huge destiny he always wants, but it sucks.

[Kennit]

dreamcatcher, on 17 August 2011 - 09:51 AM, said:

Melisandre his bride? I don't see that happening. Melisandre already said that Jon'll never love her, and there is no reason for a political marriage.

Yeah I referred to the Night's King legend where he took a she-wight(which I believe Mel has potential of being one) for a wife.

Edited by Kennit, 17 August 2011 - 10:17 AM.

[Whatever]

kg1982, on 17 August 2011 - 09:52 AM, said:

If Jon thought it sucked being Lord Commander, wait until he morphs into a legendary hero/ rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

lol

kg1982, on 17 August 2011 - 09:52 AM, said:

I see two sort of bittersweet endings.  

1.  Jon is mortally wounded.

2.  Jon gets the huge destiny he always wants, but it sucks.

you know, i've always thought your #2 (or a variant of you #2) is the one of the few ways GRRM can end jon's plotline if he both doesn't die and R+L is true. Since I'm a sadistic, the only reason why i would want R+L to be true (i'm on the ned+ashara team) is that i'd love to see the impact this would have on the characters. you know, something like dany's epic denial or jon's rage at ned and so on. IMO, R+L is a great opportunity to advert one of the biggest fantasy clichès ever (ex: young boy finds out he's a prince and has to save the world. What the heck? Wolves are way cooler than dragons & he liked his stepdad better than his real dad) LOL, i really would like to read something like that (count me in the "direwolves are way cooler than dragons" team)

[MaximumSam]

I haven't really explored all that stuff, but are the Old Gods and the Others really different?

[Whatever]

MaximumSam, on 17 August 2011 - 11:07 AM, said:

I haven't really explored all that stuff, but are the Old Gods and the Others really different?

i think they are.... of course this depends on the question "are the others really bad?"
but i don't think the old gods are that evil

[Black Crow]

I'm not sure what Jon's ultimate destiny will be, although I remain convinced of two things that won't happen; first that he is not going to be AA as he represents the Ice not the Fire, and second that he is not going to end up with Mel on account of her being a succubus.

Although its pretty tempting to see the saga being resolved through a meeting of Ice (Jon) and Fire (Dany) I don't see them being temperamentally compatable; allies yes but not mates.

I still reckon that once he recovers from the assasination attempt he's going to wind up the King of Winter but
an odd thought which did occur to me the other day is that assuming we're all right about R+L=J, then he and his beloved Arya are not siblings and I can therefore see the fruit of their union returning to Winterfell.

[Fishy]

My guess, Jon is going to be AA reborn. Go on a murderous rampage (Frey's and Boltons) and save the realm, which will make everybody really happy while reading it. But then somewhere near the end he somehow ends up in a confrontation with Arya and he kills her, unknowing it is her until he see's either Needle or Nymeria. Perhaps Ghost will howl for the first time then...

Later on he marries and continues ruling the realm, but he can never be happy again and eventually after many years goes of north of the wall with Ghost to find Nymeria/What's left of Arya and Summer/Bran to die with them.

[Apple Martini]

Black Crow, on 17 August 2011 - 11:27 AM, said:

I'm not sure what Jon's ultimate destiny will be, although I remain convinced of two things that won't happen; first that he is not going to be AA as he represents the Ice not the Fire, and second that he is not going to end up with Mel on account of her being a succubus.

Technically if he's Rhaegar's son, he could still represent Fire as well as Ice.

[Ice Turtle]

I dont know why, but I always had a feeling that somehow The Last of the Giants was Jon's song.

[Kennit]

Apple Martini, on 17 August 2011 - 11:57 AM, said:

Technically if he's Rhaegar's son, he could still represent Fire as well as Ice.

I always thought that "A Song of Ice and Fire" is a nod towards the impending war between Rhellor and the Others.
That's what the books are about, no?