86 replies to this topic

[Bayard]

NotToday, on 20 August 2011 - 09:25 PM, said:

If Jon is indeed the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar, then what you said could make sense. But I feel that Dany has to somehow end up in the North. The Others and the Wights are both vulnerable to fire; the dragons breath fire. The title of the series could be referring to the battle between Dany's Dragons (Fire) and the Others(Ice).  

As for Jon, I think he will survive, either Mel the Red Witch will heal him, or she will resurrect him like Thoros did to Cat. His skinchaning abilities could be useful in controlling the dragons. He could communicate with them, or maybe even control them. Too bad he doesn't have the fire-resistance that Dany has though.

This again??? First the wights are vulnerable to fire, we know that... but the Others?? Where does this come from?? They can be killed with obsidian and that's all we know so far. As for Dany and the dragons, we have no idea how they behave during winter, in snow, they could be useless (there are theories about this, and this may be one of the reasons why the Valyrians never went North). And the thing that annoys me the most is this idea that Dany is invulnerable to fire. She is NOT!! GRRM has said it, it was a one time thing, the blood magic protected her. She has a little tolerance to heat, maybe from her Targaryen genes, but no more, fire will burn her.

lozeldatkm, on 11 December 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

Lyanna and Rhaegar never married.... right? Not as far as we know. Even if R+L=J is proven, he'd still be a bastard.

Actually we don't know much of Rhaegar and Lyanna, they could have done anything during that year. It is possible they did indeed marry. Probably he kidnapped her from around Harrenhal, and we already know a septon by name that wandered that area for 20 years: septon Meribald. Even so, I don't think it will matter as I don't see Jon fighting for the Iron Throne. His double nature, Stark and Targaryen may help him against the Others but not politically.

Edited by Bayard, 11 December 2012 - 03:41 PM.

[armidil0]

Bayard, on 11 December 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

Actually we don't know much of Rhaegar and Lyanna, they could have done anything during that year. It is possible they did indeed marry. Probably he kidnapped her from around Harrenhal, and we already know a septon by name that wandered that area for 20 years: septon Meribald. Even so, I don't think it will matter as I don't see Jon fighting for the Iron Throne. His double nature, Stark and Targaryen may help him against the Others but not politically.

I think that he would use his lineage to get power to fight the others. "Stop your bickering and help me fight. I'm your rightful king." Stuff.

[Bayard]

armidil0, on 11 December 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

I think that he would use his lineage to get power to fight the others. "Stop your bickering and help me fight. I'm your rightful king." Stuff.

I guess maybe he would do that if he thought they would listen... but they wouldn't. He would have to do the same as Stannis, fight his brother Aegon, Tommen and maybe even Daenerys. A waste of time and effort.

[armidil0]

I honestly think that Dany is going to take care of Aegon. And Aegon to Tommen. So he might not have to do so much fighting. But I see your point. Having to fight even one war would be pointless, and take too much damn time for just two book left.

[addicted to snow]

Black Crow, on 11 December 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

Not without the spirit she can't, because if he's not at home he can't be wakened.

I agree... I think Jon's body will be resurrected via Mel or Bran, but he'll be long-gone in Ghost... There are many theories, but I think that jon/Ghost & Val will head north to seek the Heart of Winter, or to try & save the Hardehome Wildings. I think they will make their way to Bran's cave... For some reason, I have always thought that he will kill the three-eyed-crow, but that is just speculation, in fact, this entire post is speculation....

sooner or later he'll go back south, hook up with his original body, and commence to being a bad-ass...

[Black Crow]

Bayard, on 11 December 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

This again??? First the wights are vulnerable to fire, we know that... but the Others?? Where does this come from?? They can be killed with obsidian and that's all we know so far.

Sam, having skimmed the surface of what's in the library, only says that fire "daunts" them, (daunts me too come to that) but that one Sam killed below the Fist didn't exactly run away screaming when Grenn poked his torch at it.

As to the Ice being the Others and Fire the dragons, I fear that's altogether far too simplistic, each may represent that, but its not what its all about, not a war which Mel says has been fought since the beginning of time.

[armidil0]

Black Crow, on 12 December 2012 - 01:43 AM, said:

Sam, having skimmed the surface of what's in the library, only says that fire "daunts" them, (daunts me too come to that) but that one Sam killed below the Fist didn't exactly run away screaming when Grenn poked his torch at it.

As to the Ice being the Others and Fire the dragons, I fear that's altogether far too simplistic, each may represent that, but its not what its all about, not a war which Mel says has been fought since the beginning of time.

It's mentioned before that Dragons have existed on Westeros before Aegon the conqueror (if i'm remebering correctly). So maybe the battle has been going on for a long time.

[Runaway Penguin]

Black Crow, on 17 August 2011 - 11:27 AM, said:

I'm not sure what Jon's ultimate destiny will be, although I remain convinced of two things that won't happen; first that he is not going to be AA as he represents the Ice not the Fire, and second that he is not going to end up with Mel on account of her being a succubus.

He is the Song of Ice and Fire. The grey zone. Neither black or white, neither fire nor ice (or ratehr both at the same time). He is the one who will be able to face down both The Great Other and R'llhor and tell them "Get the hell out of our galaxy"

[Bayard]

Runaway Penguin, on 12 December 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

He is the Song of Ice and Fire. The grey zone. Neither black or white, neither fire nor ice (or ratehr both at the same time). He is the one who will be able to face down both The Great Other and R'llhor and tell them "Get the hell out of our galaxy"

Wow I see what you did there   

[The Sunset King]

There is a decent chance Jon could end up incurring a fate similar to Coldhands; there has been enough foreshadowing that it is a realistic possibility.  If Jon has truly died, any mode of ressurrection is likely to have significant costs.

[NotSoSilentSister]

I don't really see Jon teaming up with Others, no.

True, there's probably more to them than mindless minions of some personification of ultimate evil.
And true, other people do the whole human-sacrifice thing too.
But there this small issue of them thriving best in conditions that are ultimately fatal to humans - we are not looking at the occasional human sacrifice, but at full blown potential genocide here.
So Jon will probably want to find a way to not have the Long Night be long enough to end humanity, and I sense a bit of a conflict of interest here.


Unless Jon comes back wrong.

That's certainly a possiblity, considering the books make kind of a big deal about the costs of resurrection.

But for now I'm optimistic - Those other UnPeople we've met so far didn't have a handy direwolve to warg into at the moment of death and ice cells to preserve their bodies. I'd say Jon's prospects to get through this in comparatively good condition are better than most's.

[Black Crow]

It rather depends who the Others really are. That is, are the White Walkers the one true and only Others, or are they just one of the other Old Races? After all GRRM admitted guardedly in his Barcelona interview to a connection between the Children and the Others, and whatever the true motives of the Singers, they certainly aint on the side of the dragons and Mel the pyromaniac.

[NotSoSilentSister]

But can you envision a spring with the Others still around? They might not bring winter, but they do seem to reenforce it.

[Black Crow]

Think of them as being a part of a natural cycle.

[Runaway Penguin]

NotSoSilentSister, on 13 December 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

But can you envision a spring with the Others still around? They might not bring winter, but they do seem to reenforce it.

Or use its reinforcement to go further south. We don't know. What if White Walkers just migrate themselves south to escape something even colder?

[NotSoSilentSister]

That has to be cyclically vanquished in order for the cycle to be a cycle and not a long Night that never ends.

Point is, living conditions suitable for Others and humans seem to be mutually exclusive. In the longterm, Others and humans cannot share the same space.

I guess you are thinking of a scenario where the Others don't actually want to conquer Westeros and will peacefully retreat to the Lands of Always Winter once they have accomplished whathever they came here to accomplish  - eg. killing the Dragons restore the cosmic balance or whatever.  But since the legends tell nothing about the invovlement of dragons in the first battle for Dawn I remain sceptical. Of course legends are not exactly known for their historical accuracy and a lots of nuance gets lost in the retelling, but I'd say the involvement dragons is something that typically makes it into the legend.

Edited by NotSoSilentSister, 13 December 2012 - 03:56 PM.

[NotSoSilentSister]

Runaway Penguin, on 13 December 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

Or use its reinforcement to go further south. We don't know. What if White Walkers just migrate themselves south to escape something even colder?

Still won't allow for a peaceful coexistence between humans and Others, because they bring the cold with them.

[WakeTheDragon]

lozeldatkm, on 11 December 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

Lyanna and Rhaegar never married.... right? Not as far as we know. Even if R+L=J is proven, he'd still be a bastard.

No one knows.

[Stark bannermen]

Runaway Penguin, on 12 December 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

He is the Song of Ice and Fire. The grey zone. Neither black or white, neither fire nor ice (or ratehr both at the same time). He is the one who will be able to face down both The Great Other and R'llhor and tell them "Get the hell out of our galaxy"

[hiraeth]

NotSoSilentSister, on 13 December 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

That has to be cyclically vanquished in order for the cycle to be a cycle and not a long Night that never ends.

Point is, living conditions suitable for Others and humans seem to be mutually exclusive. In the longterm, Others and humans cannot share the same space.

I guess you are thinking of a scenario where the Others don't actually want to conquer Westeros and will peacefully retreat to the Lands of Always Winter once they have accomplished whathever they came here to accomplish  - eg. killing the Dragons restore the cosmic balance or whatever.  But since the legends tell nothing about the invovlement of dragons in the first battle for Dawn I remain sceptical. Of course legends are not exactly known for their historical accuracy and a lots of nuance gets lost in the retelling, but I'd say the involvement dragons is something that typically makes it into the legend.

I am not sure, but in Bran's dream/vision, when he says that Jon is getting cold and when he sees his mother on a ship and the giant, he says that he sees dragons steering in the south - I was under the impression that he was not thinking of Daeny's dragons and that there are free dragons living somewhere in the world... I agree that dragons were not mentioned in the first battle... Unlike the Others, dragons can be tamed to help humans, there is a bond between Drogon and Daeny I think the Others are incapable of establishing with a human being... I don't think that killing the dragons would balance things out...

Edited by hiraeth, 18 December 2012 - 04:06 PM.