Library books vs. torrented ebooks

[imladolen]

Like many of you on here I am an avid reader. I've read probably at least 1500 books in my lifetime, and by far the vast majority of those books were checked out of one public library or another, There have been dozens of books I've borrowed from friends to read.

Very very few books (no more than 50 I would estimate) that I have read were books that I actually bought (or were bought for me). So authors and publishing companies have profited very little from my reading habits. And I doubt many people would have a problem with that (although there are some authors who object to their books being available at public lending libraries).

Which leaves me to ask the question: is it wrong to torrent an ebook version of something to read? I'm not asking about the legality of the issue, it is clearly illegal in most jurisdictions (all as far as I know, but who knows, there might be someplace that allows it for all I know).

If the person torrenting a book doesn't sell (or otherwise profit from) the torrented ebook, and they read it once before deleting, is it still wrong?

They would do essentially the same thing with the hardcopy version of the book they got from the library (ie: return it to the library, not keeping it for themselves).

So, how do you feel about people torrenting ebooks to read once before deleting? Is there really a difference between that and reading a library's copy of the book and returning?

[Spaceman Hobbes]

Yes, but the library did pay for their hardcopy. It was either bought by them or donated by someone who bought the book. Piracy is theft, and if you choose to torrent ebooks instead of using a library you're robbing the author in the long run.

Additionally you're supporting the people pirating the books. You're only going to read it once and delete it? Good for you, you're now slightly less morally ambiguous than people making money off pirating ebooks. Those ads on their website, that's their primary source of revenue. They're giving stuff away because traffic on their website translates into profit. Regardless of what you do with that stuff, you're still supporting criminals that leech off authors.

[Serious Callers Only]

No one makes money pirating books, unless the people who do the pirating are complete putzs.

There's not even the botnets that pirated games hackers use to funnel money.

In fact, let us lay on some terms - you may think that pirated books over the internet are recent phenomenon. This couldn't be further from the truth, since about 1995 or so - the distinction now is that publishers have gone and created digital readers, where even "normal" people are seeing the advantages of using a digital file as a book.

The reason book pirating was so prevalent from the start is obvious : books are tiny files.

But there is a consolation: obscure authors don't get scanned (or didn't before the publishers did it for the pirates with their ereader craze) - the scanned books are the popular or the sleazy (harlequin mostly), and those are the ones that make money anyway.

[imladolen]

Yes, but the library did pay for their hardcopy. It was either bought by them or donated by someone who bought the book. Piracy is theft, and if you choose to torrent ebooks instead of using a library you're robbing the author in the long run.

Additionally you're supporting the people pirating the books. You're only going to read it once and delete it? Good for you, you're now slightly less morally ambiguous than people making money off pirating ebooks. Those ads on their website, that's their primary source of revenue. They're giving stuff away because traffic on their website translates into profit. Regardless of what you do with that stuff, you're still supporting criminals that leech off authors.

Have you read this article (by author Eric Flint) that is posted right on the front of Baen's Free Library?

I'll quote one passage from it:

2. Losses any author suffers from piracy are almost certainly offset by the additional publicity which, in practice, any kind of free copies of a book usually engender. Whatever the moral difference, which certainly exists, the practical effect of online piracy is no different from that of any existing method by which readers may obtain books for free or at reduced cost: public libraries, friends borrowing and loaning each other books, used book stores, promotional copies, etc.

{boldfacing is mine}

(yes, I know he is discussing the minimal effects Baen giving free ebooks away has, but I still think the gist of it is relevant).

As to advertisements on torrenting sites, I never even pay attention to them. I ignore ads just about anywhere and everywhere I see them; I change the channel during commercials, I ignore ads on all websites, I ignore billboard signs, and when reading a magazine or newspaper and come to an ad, I just turn the page to continue reading.

I may be one of the few people that pays no attention to commercial advertisements, but it isn't hard. Sure, the ad might have registered in my subconscious, but being as little of a consumer as I am they don't effect my purchasing activities.

Also, I would like to point out that the majority of the books that I have purchased were books that I had already read at some point. I didn't buy them to read them, but to have them as I loved the book that much, and wanted to have them sitting on my shelf looking at me. Some of them I have gone back and reread, but for the most part, once I purchase a book, it just sits there untouched.

Basically, if a book is good enough and I enjoy it enough, then I do buy a copy, or put it on my Buy-These-Books list.

[Spaceman Hobbes]

You didn't ask about practicality, you asked about ethics. Flint says they're is 'a moral difference, which certainly exists'. You have access you libraries right now. By the end of the year, all the major ereading platforms will able to get free ebooks from most libraries. I really don't seen any good reason to choose to break the law when the same things are available for free.

You're discussing the widespread implications of book piracy as a whole. You can either choose to support a system that supports an author, or you can choose to support one that is stealing his work. How is there a question of ethics there?

[Lady Nerevar]

To muddle the debate...

1) Piracy isn't really theft by definition. No one looses their copy (has it stolen) - more copies are just created for free. It's akin to lending out your book to a friend, who then returns it, rather than having said friend take it without your knowledge and never give it back.

2) What if your library doesn't have the book you want? For example, the entire Baltimore County library system doesn't have any Prince of Nothing, but does have Aspect Emperor. Where am I to get the first trilogy, legally, and for free?

[Spring Bass]

The simple answer is that you can't. If your library doesn't have the books, and you can't borrow a copy from someone else (including an e-book copy, like getting someone to lend their kindle e-books of the series to you to read on either a Kindle or Kindle for PC app), then there isn't a way to legally read it for free.

Now, if it really is the case that you can't afford to buy a copy, and would otherwise not read the series at all, then most people would cut you some slack. Better a pirated audience than no audience at all. I also tend to sympathetic to those reading pirated copies when the work only comes in a highly undesirable format, like a serial work where there is no legal way to read the latest installment aside from buying a paperback book with several installments months after they've come out elsewhere (a common problem with manga brought to the US).

[Ormond]

To muddle the debate...

2) What if your library doesn't have the book you want? For example, the entire Baltimore County library system doesn't have any Prince of Nothing, but does have Aspect Emperor. Where am I to get the first trilogy, legally, and for free?

Through Interlibrary Loan. It will take a little longer than finding it on a local shelf, but I can't imagine that a system as large as the Baltimore County libraries doesn't participate in Interlibrary Loan.

I just checked World Cat and it says there are 12 library systems in Maryland that have The Darkness That Comes Before, including Enoch Pratt, the Baltimore City system.

P.S. Having checked the Baltimore County Library website, I see that they charge a $2 handling fee for Interlibrary loan outside of Central Maryland, but they have an interlibrary service called "Direct Loan" within Central Maryland which is free and which includes Enoch Pratt, along with Anne Arundel, Cecil, Frederick, and Harford counties, all of which have Darkness. So there are five places you can get a copy of that book for free.

[Spring Bass]

I forgot about Inter-library Loan, but that's definitely an option.

[Datepalm]

To muddle the debate further, what if you can't get the book via an interlibrary loan? What if it doesn't exist in the entire library catalogue of your entire country, (and you live in a country where libraries are few and poor) and ordering the book (including shipping, which would likely cost more than the book itself) would take months and be a significant percentage of your monthly salary?

[Spring Bass]

Go with the piracy. Illegal or not, it's the only way you're going to read that book, and better a pirated copy being read than no copy at all.

I do that with a number of mangas where the only english translations are those done by fan scanlation groups.

[HandsomePotato]

To further muddle...

Are you paying for the story and experience or are you paying for a physical, recently published, copy of that story bound in book form? If I read some Shakespeare or Orwell for free on a webpage am I stealing from the latest publisher which currently holds the rights to publish said material?

[Seli]

To muddle the debate further, what if you can't get the book via an interlibrary loan? What if it doesn't exist in the entire library catalogue of your entire country, (and you live in a country where libraries are few and poor) and ordering the book (including shipping, which would likely cost more than the book itself) would take months and be a significant percentage of your monthly salary?

First I would check if there are stores that have no shipping costs (I do not know if bookdepository sends to Israel). Next if there is an ebook version I can buy legally.

After that it is a question of how badly I want a book.

[BigFatCoward]

i wouldn't get a pirate copy, but until publishers stop taking the piss with the price of ebooks i don't think that is ethically a problem.

[Solmyr]

Yes, but the library did pay for their hardcopy.

Would it make a difference if each torrent tracker paid the price of a single e-book copy before uploading the torrent? Definitely not, thousands of people will still get it for free at the price of 1 copy. Same thing happens with the library, but on a smaller scale, because the library exists in the physical world ...

The simple answer is that you can't. If your library doesn't have the books, and you can't borrow a copy from someone else (including an e-book copy, like getting someone to lend their kindle e-books of the series to you to read on either a Kindle or Kindle for PC app), then there isn't a way to legally read it for free.

It is justified for libraries to have limited copies of a certain book, because the book is a physical object, created from paper, ink and a printing press. Resources are wasted in the process, the library has to give up space to store it, the book itself depreciates over time and may have to be replaced with a fresh copy and finally, as a physical object, it can be salvaged for some physical worth (e.g. burn to produce heat in the event of an ice age ...).

Neither of this is applicable to ebooks. Any price put on ebooks is 100% profit for the author and distributors.

Now, if we had online libraries, which worked the same way real libraries do, with the exception that each existing book can be lent to an indefinite number of users at any one time ...

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Coco,

I'm streaming three audiobooks from my local library right now. They'll stay on my iPhone until requested by another patron.

[The BlackWolf]

To muddle the debate...

1) Piracy isn't really theft by definition. No one looses their copy (has it stolen) - more copies are just created for free. It's akin to lending out your book to a friend, who then returns it, rather than having said friend take it without your knowledge and never give it back.

Well now you're entering the debate about intellectual property rights etc. If you sneak into a cinema without paying is that OK, because they haven't LOST money? No, because you haven't paid to see the film. But then DVDs are released and there's no law that says you have to watch that DVD on your own (although there is still some profit in this scenario). It's a significant grey area to say the least.

For me, piracy is theft because the contributing artists (in whatever format) receives nothing, whereas pirates profit from web ads (whether you look at them or not). I'd rather pirate an album and give £10 to the artist involved than see them make £1 from the sale of a £10 album though, but this is a different issue again. That's ethically wrong, but for the right reasons? Hypocritical, I know.

It's such a muddle. I'm in such a muddle now...

[Serious Callers Only]

Shhhhh - don't tell the secret, i want the board to survive for a little while longer.

[Blaine]

Advertising is bad for your mental health, and I have basically cut the number I see each day down to a handful.

It really isn't fair to judge Advertising by it's crappiest example, banner ads.

However, I can verify that working in Advertising is bad for your mental health. :P

[TerraPrime]

(although there are some authors who object to their books being available at public lending libraries).

Really? Like who?

Which leaves me to ask the question: is it wrong to torrent an ebook version of something to read?

This is even a question?

So, how do you feel about people torrenting ebooks to read once before deleting? Is there really a difference between that and reading a library's copy of the book and returning?

Of course there's a difference.

When patrons use a library, the library has documented access. These data are not associated with your name, of course, but it is tabulated to show that the facility is being used. This then translates into budget justification, which helps keep the library open and functioning.

When people pirate books to read in lieu of borrowing from the library, it negatively affects the overall performance of the library in the aggregate sense. So there is a direct difference between borrowing from a library and pirating a copy.

Ethically, there's also a difference. The publishing companies have agreed to the library system where their published books are purchased once but can be read by many. They may or may not wish to change it, but they know the system when they get into the business. They, however, have not agreed to having their published work pirated.

To be blunt, these are quite obvious to anyone contemplating the issue if they're not already pre-occupied in trying to justify their infringement on intellectual property rights. What you're explaining is no difference than asking if it's ethically right for you to steal a hammer from Ace Hardware so you can hammer one nail and then to return that hammer.