368 replies to this topic

[Dragons Dancing]

I hesitate to post this because I did not take notes but I heard the reading at WorldCon. It is a travelogue but you see that Arienne has become more like Doran in her thinking and cautiousness.
George was explicit that he did not want anyone recording the reading and I was sitting in second row in front of him so didn't think I should be taking notes. Hopefully someone took more detailed notes and will post them, but the chapter did not have any critical information.

I concur with what has been provided about the reading. I will add that Arianne was very skeptical and cautious about Aegon. She traveled with a lot of guards and Elia and they sought out information every chance they got and she sent 5 ravens to Prince Doran with information. She made the trip to gather as much information as she could as to their intentions and troop strength. She was also wondering if he had information about Quentyn. She had no thought of marriage to Aegon. She was not planning to commit Dorne leaving that decision to Doran. She was very put off by the crudeness of the sellswords at Griffins Roost and they wouldn’t answer many of her questions and were cagy about the ones they did answer. She was surprised that Aegon had taken Storms End but there was no information provided as to how he had taken it but rumors her guards picked up that it had been bloody. When the invite came to go to Storms End to meet Aegon and Connington she was conflicted. She wondered if it was a trap where she might be held ransom for her father’s throwing his support to Aegon, and her lead guard counseled her against going, but she agreed to go anyway and that is where the chapter ended.

This chapter had no new information about what was going on elsewhere in the Kingdom and little new about Aegon except that he had taken Storms End.

[Wouter]

Dragons Dancing, on 06 September 2011 - 05:01 AM, said:

I hesitate to post this because I did not take notes but I heard the reading at WorldCon. It is a travelogue but you see that Arienne has become more like Doran in her thinking and cautiousness.
George was explicit that he did not want anyone recording the reading and I was sitting in second row in front of him so didn't think I should be taking notes. Hopefully someone took more detailed notes and will post them, but the chapter did not have any critical information.

Taking notes is allowed. Trebla took detailed notes, but hasn't yet been able to post them yet (he did give a general overview of the chapter on page 1, though).

Thanks for sharing though, it's appreciated!

Dragons Dancing, on 06 September 2011 - 05:01 AM, said:

I concur with what has been provided about the reading. I will add that Arianne was very skeptical and cautious about Aegon. She traveled with a lot of guards and Elia and they sought out information every chance they got and she sent 5 ravens to Prince Doran with information. She made the trip to gather as much information as she could as to their intentions and troop strength. She was also wondering if he had information about Quentyn. She had no thought of marriage to Aegon. She was not planning to commit Dorne leaving that decision to Doran. She was very put off by the crudeness of the sellswords at Griffins Roost and they wouldn’t answer many of her questions and were cagy about the ones they did answer. She was surprised that Aegon had taken Storms End but there was no information provided as to how he had taken it but rumors her guards picked up that it had been bloody. When the invite came to go to Storms End to meet Aegon and Connington she was conflicted. She wondered if it was a trap where she might be held ransom for her father’s throwing his support to Aegon, and her lead guard counseled her against going, but she agreed to go anyway and that is where the chapter ended.

Interesting that you note Arianne was sceptical and even suspicious (re: the hostage taking she feared) about Aegon - that's new info for us here and it shows that the Dorne alliance may not be as dead certain as thought.  

Another new thing you note is that Storm's End apparently was bloody. Since I doubt they stormed it but used guile instead, now I'm afraid this may mean they decided to put Stannis' garrison to the sword?

All in all, it seems Dorne joining Aegon is far from certain still, based on this chapter.

[ARYa_Nym]

Yes thanks Dragons Dancing!

I wish that we could have gotten what her reaction is to YG. That is going to be crucial.

& this is the one time I agree with Doran for being cautious. They should be suspicious.

[Alexia]

That was a very interesting and helpful summary, Dragons Dancing, thank you for sharing.  I still think that when Dorne hears about how Quentyn died, their support will go to Aegon regardless.

I am looking forward to hearing a reading of the second Arianne chapter that was written.  I am still pulling for Doran to die and leave Arianne in charge.

[Kadence]

Thanks for the new info Dragons Dancing. I agree that Dorne won't ally with YG until news of Quentyn comes. They can't put their eggs in two different claimants for the crown. They can only back one horse.

Dragons Dancing, on 06 September 2011 - 05:01 AM, said:

She was surprised that Aegon had taken Storms End but there was no information provided as to how he had taken it but rumors her guards picked up that it had been bloody.

Interesting. This might lend support to the ideas some have mentioned of them attacking the Tyrell forces while pretending to be Stannis' relief, causing them to open the gates. Alternatively, perhaps Lord Rowan (I think he was in command?) joined forces with them and they stormed together - though, that wouldn't fit the "guile" wording of Connington well.

Alexia, on 06 September 2011 - 12:05 PM, said:

I am looking forward to hearing a reading of the second Arianne chapter that was written.  I am still pulling for Doran to die and leave Arianne in charge.

Perhaps Doran has a heart attack after Quentyn dies, or wastes away. Or becomes depressed and bedridden and Arianne takes over de facto command.

[The Mother of The Others]

Dragons Dancing, on 06 September 2011 - 05:01 AM, said:

Arianne wondered if it was a trap where she might be held ransom for her father’s throwing his support to Aegon

That shows her growth.  Time was, she would have been the one trying to force her father's hand by running off to a beseiged castle in enemy territory so Doran would have to commit troops to bail her out of trouble.  Oh wait, it looks like that's what's going to happen with the older wiser Arianne too.

[LadyMary]

Wouter, on 19 August 2011 - 01:55 PM, said:

I agree Sansa is not even in the running. Not only would Aegon probably not want to marry the daughter of Eddard Stark, one of the chief rebels (and Jon Connington lost against him in the battle of the bells, so one can expect what he thinks about that), LF would never let Sansa slip from his grasp in this way. It means Sansa leaves the Vale, leaves him and does not marry Harry so support from the Vale is not guaranteed. Sansa can't bring Stark armies either, as those just don't exist anymore.

I think that would be shortsighted.

There are a lot of "ifs" but if Sansa could be pardoned and if her marriage to Tyrion was somehow annulled...and how convenient that JC can attest to the fact that Tyrion is in Essos having abandoned his wife and claim, not to mention being  wanted for patricide and accused of regicide.  Yeah, well, I haven't quite worked all the bugs out of this theory yet... Heh.

Anyway, if Sansa were unmarried and still a virgin no less, she might look like a great way to bring some of Eddard's Northmen into alliance with "Aegon" and Connington, especially since some of the Northmen would clearly welcome a chance to have an army to depose the traitorous Roose Bolton and his murderous son. Sansa's right of succession to Winterfell is still better than the Arya's even if "Arya" is married to Ramsay, and while Manderly has sent Davos to find Rickon, Sansa would be a good fall-back just in case.  Maybe Aegon makes a deal, agrees to leave the North alone when he ascends to the throne, and through Sansa Stark, he has a large friendly ally with a base at Winterfell through Lord Rickon Stark.  

Plus, Sansa and Aegon are close enough in age and raised on courtly manners and expectations, that they might actually like each other in a romantic way.

ARYa_Nym, on 05 September 2011 - 04:59 AM, said:

How is being wanted for regicide a non-issue when the Lannisters are still in power? LF thought that Cersei was done remember. Varys is putting her back in power.

& it was the Lannisters who made LF Lord Paramount if he gets too bold they can strip him of his position easily. Surely he must know this.

Connington said that the Vale was too far away despite it being in Westeros.

It's also an assumption that Sansa would want to be Aegon's Queen. She dreamt of Winterfell not KL. I already explained how Arianne could act without Doran's approval just as she has done in the past.

I have no emotional attatchment to Arianne/YG. Why would I when they are doomed to fail anyway?

Dorne wants to rebel and Arianne could be the one who causes them to rebel much faster than intended.

& the Riverlands can barely defend their own lands so why would they fight for Sansa? They are much too busy with the Freys atm.

The Vale has loyalty first to SweetRobin then to Harry the Heir. Not to Sansa. Harry the Heir could want her for himself as well as the other Vale lords.

The High Septon doesn't like her or women in particular. Getting the marriage annulled will be much easier than convincing him that she didn't kill Joffrey.

Just a couple comments in response to this...

Littlefinger is keeping his cards close and while he a Varys are both conspiring to bring down the Lannisters, they are doing it with different resources and for different reasons. Varys, if he was being truthful to Kevan, is a true believer in stability under a King who was raised the right way. Littlefinger is only into it for himself, but he's good at dealing with contingencies. Right now a great big contingency just landed to the south of the Vale with an army. I can see where Littlefinger would scrap his plan and figure out a way to ally himself with Aegon -- after assessing Aegon's potential for actually deposing Cersei and Tommen. Arranging a marriage between Sansa and Aegon could set him up in the new regime, as undisputed Lord of the Vale, or whatever he wanted.

Littlefinger was named Lord Protector by the Lannisters, that's true. But it hasn't stopped him from conspiring to bring them down. He's not loyal, he's spiteful and he's a better game-player than Cersei, Tywin is dead and Tyrion is on the run. Plus, the Lannisters have a world of problems to deal with and they don't really know what he's up to. He's good at making the right political gestures while maneuvering to twist the knife. Littlefinger would use whatever advantage he could gain, and while Connington thinks the Vale is too far away, it's still a potential ally in the war.

As for what Sansa wants... she wanted to move to Kings Landing and marry the Prince and have babies. That went badly. Then she wanted to marry Willas Tyrell and get the Hell out of Kings Landing and live happily ever after raising puppies. That went badly. Then she just wanted to get out - full stop, and thought she had a savior in Dontos whom she trusted. That went badly. Then she was "rescued" and taken to a barren sheep-poop covered rock where she was nearly molested by a singer, then taken to the creepy Eyrie where her fakeDaddy makes the moves on her and almost gets her killed, and she started reminiscing about Winterfell, but she thinks that's lost to her. If marriage to a handsome and true prince would keep her safe from the Lannisters, and ensure a friend to Winterfell and the North on the throne, I think she'd be dancing for joy.

Edited by LadyMary, 06 September 2011 - 09:19 PM.

[LadyMary]

sorry multiquote fail...

Edited by LadyMary, 06 September 2011 - 09:08 PM.

[Gaston de Foix]

Dragons Dancing thank for your very helpful summary.Trebla, any chance you have to post your extremely detailed notes would be wonderful, it's eagerly expected.

I expect the fall of Storm's End was bloody because the castellan and the rest chose not to surrender. After seeing the fall of Griffin's Roost in ADWD, I don't think the Golden Company is trying to kill the smallfolk and the like, Connington needs to win the storm lords over to his side.

I'm a little wary of the introduction of a fifth sand snake in the chapter, each new character means GRRM needs a character resolution. The four we have are good enough for me. And it sounds like Arianne's contrast between Aegon and Dany continously to the benefit of the latter is a little forced. that being said, what I'm really salivating about is new information about the Children of the Forest from the cave markings.

[Wouter]

Gaston de Foix, on 07 September 2011 - 03:40 AM, said:

And it sounds like Arianne's contrast between Aegon and Dany continously to the benefit of the latter is a little forced.

Eh, Arianne contrasting Aegon and Dany? In what way? I missed that in the summaries I've seen, so far.

[Davos' Middle Finger]

If the Lannisters fall then no one will care that Sansa was suspected in Joffrey's murder.  Remember how Ser Hyle told Brienne that none of Tarly's men gave a crap that she was accused of killing Renly, now that he was dead and buried?

The High Septon might care, but that's it I think.  Aegon and Connington certainly won't.

Edited by Davos' Middle Finger, 07 September 2011 - 09:03 AM.

[Gaston de Foix]

Wouter, it's well nigh impossible to check whether there has been anything posted on this thread because it's full of posts only tangentially related to the topic of the reading. Anyway for those people who actually care, here's the most complete account I've seen of the reading of the chapter and this is what triggered my comment about Arianne comparing Aegon and Dany. If it's been linked already in this thread, I can't see where.

http://users.livejou...d__/304695.html

[princeMountainGoat]

Some details about the reading at WorldCon that seem to have been missed off the reports:

George actually gave the audience a choice of chapters, either Aeron Damphair or Arianne. He did try to sell the Damphair chapter by saying there was some "seriously twisted stuff" in there but the majority of the audience went with Arianne instead.

After the reading George did mention that the chapter was Arianne II and not Arianne I. He said the first Arianne chapter is set back in Sunspear and is about Doran learning about Aegon landing in the Stormlands and sending Arianne to go and gather information for him.

The Q&A was a set of fairly typical questions, most of which have been asked a hundred times before. The only one that stands out (for the answer, not the question) was about character fates and whether George has everything figured out. He used an example based on the chapter saying he knows the fate of Arianne but he does not know the fate of Feathers (the man Elia was caught snogging in case you missed that).

I think the details about what happened in the chapter have all been reported. Personally I felt like it was a bit of a slow chapter, certainly the first half which was all travelogue and it didn't really get going until Arianne arrived at Griffin's Roost near the end. Books need chapters like this but I've certainly heard George read more exciting chapters before and with the benefit of hindsight I kind of wished more of the audience had been swayed to go with the Damphair instead. Maybe he'll read that one next time at Eastercon (Radisson Hotel, Heathrow Airport, London) in April 2012. For anyone in the UK or Europe that has not met George or heard him read before this will be the Con to get to.

[Drogon Rider]

I wish that she had recalled more details about the cave

[Gaston de Foix]

lordMountainGoat, on 07 September 2011 - 12:01 PM, said:

Some details about the reading at WorldCon that seem to have been missed off the reports:

George actually gave the audience a choice of chapters, either Aeron Damphair or Arianne. He did try to sell the Damphair chapter by saying there was some "seriously twisted stuff" in there but the majority of the audience went with Arianne instead.

After the reading George did mention that the chapter was Arianne II and not Arianne I. He said the first Arianne chapter is set back in Sunspear and is about Doran learning about Aegon landing in the Stormlands and sending Arianne to go and gather information for him.

The Q&A was a set of fairly typical questions, most of which have been asked a hundred times before. The only one that stands out (for the answer, not the question) was about character fates and whether George has everything figured out. He used an example based on the chapter saying he knows the fate of Arianne but he does not know the fate of Feathers (the man Elia was caught snogging in case you missed that).

I think the details about what happened in the chapter have all been reported. Personally I felt like it was a bit of a slow chapter, certainly the first half which was all travelogue and it didn't really get going until Arianne arrived at Griffin's Roost near the end. Books need chapters like this but I've certainly heard George read more exciting chapters before and with the benefit of hindsight I kind of wished more of the audience had been swayed to go with the Damphair instead. Maybe he'll read that one next time at Eastercon (Radisson Hotel, Heathrow Airport, London) in April 2012. For anyone in the UK or Europe that has not met George or heard him read before this will be the Con to get to.

hmm...the last bit about knowing the fate of Arianne but not Feather is interesting. The immediate question that springs to my mind is...does he know the fate of Elia?

And, seconded Drogon Rider, I want to know more about the cave too...hopefully there is new info on children of the forest, and not just picturesque worldbuilding.

Edited by Gaston de Foix, 07 September 2011 - 02:40 PM.

[Wouter]

Gaston de Foix, on 07 September 2011 - 09:24 AM, said:

Wouter, it's well nigh impossible to check whether there has been anything posted on this thread because it's full of posts only tangentially related to the topic of the reading. Anyway for those people who actually care, here's the most complete account I've seen of the reading of the chapter and this is what triggered my comment about Arianne comparing Aegon and Dany. If it's been linked already in this thread, I can't see where.

http://users.livejou...d__/304695.html

Gaston de Foix, thanks for linking to this detailed report! There hasn't been anything this detailed posted on this thread yet - the lack of detailed info is partially what led to the tangentially related conversation.

Thanks also for lordMountainGoat to provide extra information. Now we are getting somewhere! Very interesting that it actually is Arianne II that was read.

[Wouter]

Quoting some parts from the livejournal link, kindly provided by Gaston De Foix:

Quote

At one point they come across a cave and Elia goes deep into it. I guess it's during this that Arianne is thinking about Quentyn and Dany. Then she realizes Elia has been gone awhile and is like, "ugh, her sisters will kill me if something happens to her," so she goes down the cave, and eventually she finds Elia capturing fish with her bare hands in some pool. And Arianne is like, "WHAT ARE YOU DOING, YOU COULD HAVE DIED!!!" and Elia is like, "…but… I captured fish!" and Arianne is like, "YOU. COULD. HAVE. DIED." and then "died," echoes 3 times in the chamber and the way GRRM read it made me think it could be foreshadowing? idk. It was pretty ominous.

Hmm. It does sound like foreshadowing. Capturing ... a fish ... and then 3x DIED? No clue what this could be about, though.
This must be the cave where the signs of the Children of the Forest presence were discovered, according to an earlier report.

Quote

The beginning of the chapter is just detailing parts of their journey from what I remember. Arianne starts wondering at some point where Quentyn is and if he's married Dany yet, and she thinks about how Dany is just a maiden, and she wonders if she will have to call him King Quentyn and thinks that sounds silly.

Dany just a maiden!?   Slight misconception here.

Quote

At some point they reach… some castle or place (sorry, I'm awful at names and details like that) where Connington's men have taken hold and we meet Jon Mud(d?) and… Chain, I believe? One of them lets it slip that Connington is going after Storm's End, and Arianne is like, "lol no that's not going to happen, Storm's End is one of the most fortified/impossible to capture places in all of the Seven Kingdoms." There's also a brief appearance at this point of someone named Lady Mertyn or something similar? And I can't remember whether we've seen her before or not now. But she seems to be being held by Connington's men here; I'm guessing that she was one of the people residing there before Connington's men took over. I just remember her because there was an amusing line where she was like, "I knew Connington's mother, and you tell him that he should be ashamed of himself!" or something.

Anybody an idea which castle that could be? Probably not Griffin's Roost, which is likely the castle Arianne visits later and where she is told Connington has taken Storm's End.

Quote

At some point (I think it's here, but it could've been with Mud(d?) and Chain possibly, but I'm pretty sure it was Lyseni), Arianne discusses Prince Aegon vs. Dany. And Connington's man is like, "He has Dornish blood!" and Arianne is like, "So does Dany," and there's a mention of Aegon being a dragon, and Arianne is like, "Dany has 3." Oh, and at some point Arianne refers to Aegon being a pretender. There are parts generally where Arianne thinks about whether Dorne should give their support to Connington or not, and that he'll need them if he wants to capture... either King's Landing or Storm's End, or maybe both?

Very interesting. At this point, Dorne (remember, there is an earlier chapter where Doran apparently proved sceptical about Aegon judging by Arianne's frame of mind here) seems to be firmly behind Dany and having serious doubts about Aegon being Elia's son - I guess otherwise she wouldn't think pretender. But we also know what news will be arriving eventually for Dorne, and Arianne still has that problem regarding Quentyn. Based on the Dornish reluctance to believe the claims about Aegon on the one hand, and the death of Quentyn on the other hand, I still wonder if a marriage Arianne-Aegon might be Dorne's price to go along with what they seem to heavily suspect is a pretender, and not the genuine article.

Quote

Anyways, his men are like, "Connington wants you to go to Storm's End and meet him!" and she's thinking about it and kind of realizes that she probably doesn't really have a choice. And she's talking to Damon, and he's like, "I WILL GO IN YOUR PLACE! YOU SHOULDN'T GO!" and she's like, "No, I should do it."

She probably really doesn't have any choice? Does she mean as in, "I'm Conningtons hostage already, they just haven't outright told me yet"?


Martin tried to "sell" a Damphair chapter instead, which seems disappointing (no Sansa/Alayne offered, no Samwell either or another Asha/Theon or Jaime/Brienne chapter - though at least one Alayne chapter has been written). I wonder what "crazy" stuff could happen in a Damphair chapter at this point, considering he is probably cut off from all the other main Ironborn characters and presumably slow to get news.

[Drogon Rider]

The Damphair chapter could expand on the knowledge of the Dragon Horn???

[Ghostrider]

Earlier somewhere it was reported that Arianne was warned not to go to meet Connington by sea. Maybe she ends up running into Euron and gets captured so never makes it to Storms End??

[Wouter]

Ghostrider, on 07 September 2011 - 04:30 PM, said:

Earlier somewhere it was reported that Arianne was warned not to go to meet Connington by sea. Maybe she ends up running into Euron and gets captured so never makes it to Storms End??

Who says she is going by sea? Storm's End is close to Griffin's Roost, should be a fairly easy trip by land?