Jojen Reed's fate? (ADWD Spoilers)

[horizon]

Sorry to bring up the show- some people have major problems bringing it up here- but does anyone else think this theory is now confirmed given what happened last night?

At the very least it shows Jojen is nonessential to the overall plot.

It is against the forum rules to talk about show happenings in the book forums.

[Daenor]

It is against the forum rules to talk about show happenings in the book forums.

Still though it's valid IMO if some people can't ignore something that seems to be a book spoiler on behalf of the show.

[horizon]

What are you trying to say?

[Black Crow]

I would say that the show suggests Jojen does not have a significant future role in the story. Beyond that it would be unwise to draw any conclusions.

[Beorn Snow]

I would say that the show suggests Jojen does not have a significant future role in the story. Beyond that it would be unwise to draw any conclusions.

Indeed.

Well mostly I think it´s about the budget. All secondary characters seem to be killed of, even if they have a role to play. But it can´t be extremely important.

[TheOwlWBU]

I would say that the show suggests Jojen does not have a significant future role in the story. Beyond that it would be unwise to draw any conclusions.

I disagree. I don't think the goings-on in the show have any relevance to the books; the show is interested in keeping as few characters as possible for monetary reasons and actor availability issues. I think that Jojen's plot will be folded in with Meera's. Also I strongly suspect that the show is going to draw its own conclusion within the next few years that is seperate from the books. It's not an uncommon thing for adaptations that overtake the source to do: I remember reading about some anime that overtook its respective manga and created its own ending, and then they redid it some years later when the manga had concluded (differently) to follow the source more accurately.

But anyway enough about that. What do you guys think about my theory up there? I was kinda excited when I thought of it!

[SunflashJT]

But anyway enough about that. What do you guys think about my theory up there? I was kinda excited when I thought of it!

It is an interesting theory to say the least. However, I think that when stating that time means nothing to a Heart Tree Bloodraven is referencing the memories and being able to see into the past as if you were there. That being said that rules out the Theon Paste portion of the theory as physical matter can't travel into the past, so it can't be Theon's blood.

[JRRStark]

It is an interesting theory, but perhaps the same conclusion for Theon both he and Jojen have no further part to play in the story.

It could also be argued that Jojen's blood is that of a King, albeit not one recogonised by westreros at large, but certainly amongst his own people as they are realy seperate from the rest of westeros, even if nominally part of the Kingdom of the North. They also must have greater remaining links to the ways of the first men and the children.

Of more significance is that Jojen knew his fate and presumably so did Howland Reed. So is there more importance in the 'victim' being a willing volunteer, In which case Theon given his current state may also be a willing volunteer to offer himself upto the heart tree. Then we also have the paradox or irony of Theon been scarficed in payment for Bran's life but been consumed by Bran himself.

[Lady of Butterflies]

I disagree. I don't think the goings-on in the show have any relevance to the books; the show is interested in keeping as few characters as possible for monetary reasons and actor availability issues. I think that Jojen's plot will be folded in with Meera's. Also I strongly suspect that the show is going to draw its own conclusion within the next few years that is seperate from the books. It's not an uncommon thing for adaptations that overtake the source to do: I remember reading about some anime that overtook its respective manga and created its own ending, and then they redid it some years later when the manga had concluded (differently) to follow the source more accurately.

But anyway enough about that. What do you guys think about my theory up there? I was kinda excited when I thought of it!

How Jojen's plot could be folded with Meera's? I think Jojen's purpouse is all of magic things, and Meera doesn't have any powers.

[Ghosts Lunch]

I recently reread the Bran and Reed chapters in the COTF caves with Bloodraven and a sneaking suspicion I had in my first read through has solidified into something I would be surprised to find out not to be true. This being: Jojen Reed was sacrificed to the Old Gods and then fed to Bran in the weirwood paste in order to awaken his latent ability to warg into weirwood.

Now, you have to read between the lines in order to come to this conclusion, but I believe the hints are disturbingly clear in retrospect. Jojen's deepening gloom and sense of his impending demise, Bran seeing ancient Men sacrificing humans to the Old Gods and then tasting their blood, Bran's initial perception that the weirwood paste had blood in it and his initial revulsion at its taste, and finally Bran's looking for Jojen and Meera as his last chapter in the book closes and not finding them. Also, to a lesser extent, the ancient bones of animals and humans scattered through the caves.

Add on top of this a broader theme in Martin's work; that magic comes with a price. Dany's sacrifice of her unborn child to "save" Drogo and burning of the witch to wake the dragons. The burnt human sacrifices that the Fire God's disciples give him for power. Craster sacrificing his sons to the Others. Bran having to partake in a human sacrifice for his expanded powers would fit perfectly into this pattern. Which is why, along with the context clues in his chapters, I believe Jojen was that sacrifice. Which is dark. And creepy. And kind of pretty freakin' cool.

Thoughts? Counter arguments? I also realize that this is probably not a original take on this chapter, but I have not seen it discussed recently and am curious to see how many people had the same idea that I have about it.

I think you're just inventing rather than reading between the lines. If Jojen dies, it might be to act as a decoy to take Bran's place so Bran can escape. but I see no reason at all why Bran can escape, Bran is a useless game piece unless he is exactly where he is right now. Bran was given weirwood seeds, its entirely possible he can't leave the hill any more (that would be an interesting side effect). He wouldn't or shouldn't leave, he'll live and die beneath the ground but be so much more with skin-changing, tree-seeing, and warging. He may well skinchange to Hodor more permanently if the Reeds have to leave the cave. But it is life threatening to leave the cave at this point with winter rising. it's unlikely the reeds will be able to leave until after Winter Solstice, or a few years down the road. Jojen may well die saving Meera, or trying to prevent Bran from skin changing to Hodor, but I don't think he's dead yet or part of the paste Bran consumed.

It's an interesting notion. Obviously the paste comes from somewhere

For my part I figured the bones would be from ancient people who became seers

Jojen probably knows he would die there (somehow) which may be half the reason the show ended him out front. With all the doom talk though, I figured this went hand in hand with Melisandres fire visions about the mists rising and all the lights (children) in the caves going out - quite sad.

I do think Bran will end up moving south again to escape, Bloodraven not so much, but seems he may be training Bran to take his place

There is an interesting question about it all though, the ancient worshippers did practice blood sacrifice, whereas the modern worshippers (Skagos aside perhaps) don't and there is a question as to what end they practice it

[Ghosts Lunch]

It is an interesting theory, but perhaps the same conclusion for Theon both he and Jojen have no further part to play in the story.

It could also be argued that Jojen's blood is that of a King, albeit not one recogonised by westreros at large, but certainly amongst his own people as they are realy seperate from the rest of westeros, even if nominally part of the Kingdom of the North. They also must have greater remaining links to the ways of the first men and the children.

Of more significance is that Jojen knew his fate and presumably so did Howland Reed. So is there more importance in the 'victim' being a willing volunteer, In which case Theon given his current state may also be a willing volunteer to offer himself upto the heart tree. Then we also have the paradox or irony of Theon been scarficed in payment for Bran's life but been consumed by Bran himself.

They do seem to be suggesting it in the WoW chapter at the back of ADWD and the Ravens (quite hilariously) sound like they are even egging Stannis on

Not sure Stannis would go for that though for the same reason he is uneasy about Edric Storm etc, and personally I actually think Theon may be used by Asha to depose Euron on the precedent that Theon was Balons son and not present at the Kingsmoot to stake his claim. What's more I suspect that before being castrated he actually fathered a bastard child with the captains daughter of Myraham. Plus his character development arc means his mother acts as a counter-force to his fathers mocking rejection of him, eg he goes back a a wreck but they still love him etc

[Ghosts Lunch]

Heavens! " The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife " .. The other moon phases are mentioned , just less often.. Of course that description is mentioned more frequently . There are 2 crescent moons in every moon cycle . Time is passing ... about two months , apparently.

ETA: The bitterness of the taste is likened to Acorn paste , not blood and the effect is similar to when Dany drank Shade of the Evening ( also prepared from part of a tree ...leaves , in that case.. ). Both concoctions facilitate seeing visions.

It had a bitter taste, though not so bitter as acorn paste. The first spoonful was the hardest to get down. He almost retched it right back up. The second tasted better. The third was almost sweet. The rest he spooned up eagerly. Why had he thought that it was bitter? It tasted of honey, of new-fallen snow, of pepper and cinnamon and the last kiss his mother ever gave him. ..Bran ,ADWD

The first sip tasted like ink and spoiled meat, foul, but when she swallowed it seemed to come to life within her. She could feel tendrils spreading through her chest, like fingers of fire coiling around her heart, and on her tongue was a taste like honey and anise and cream, like mother’s milk and Drogo’s seed, like red meat and hot blood and molten gold. It was all the tastes she had ever known, and none of them ...Dany ,ACoK

Well spotted, they do seem to be the counterparts to eachother

For mine I'm not sure, I am leaning slightly toward Jojen paste but it is perfectly feasible that the Red part of the paste is from the red Weirwood leaves

We know that sacrifices toward R'hlorr elicit certain advantages but I am curious as to what a sacrifice to the Old Gods would bring. In particular a Kings Blood sacrifice, if Melisandre thinks Kings blood to R'hlorr can bring out a Stone Dragon what does a blood sacrifice to the Old Gods bring?

Btw, this thread just motivated me to make a bowl of porridge with honey...

[Ghosts Lunch]

Just because the crazies on Skagos eat people and Summer has eaten human flesh does not mean Bran has been fed Jojen. That is in fact a HUGE leap.

What part of the text, in any part of the world, leads you to believe that eating people transfers power?

So maybe Wyman Mandrley has super-Frey power now that he ate Frey-pie??

What would happen if Dany ate Drogon? You think she could breath fire?

What if Jon ate Ghost? Do you think he could warg into a warg?

I don't think it is supposed to be so much the eating in itself, it is probably the sacrificing element (in a certain way) and then melding the lifeforce/blood in with the Weir Paste

Similarly, merely burning people won't lead to R'hlorr magic, it is obviously done a certain way and overseen by a priest

That all said, it's worth remembering the red blood looking component could have come from the red leaves of a Weir Tree, that would make sense as well as it is adapting to the Weir Tree

[pdderek]

No one is killing Theon any time soon so your theory is whack. He knows the TRUTH! He's one of like three people who know that Bran and Rickon are alive, what the Boltons have done/are doing, and he's ransom-worthy. If you think Theon is killed, sacrificed, and fed to Bran then you've been drinking the kool-aid MAN.

It seems pretty obvious that Bran has consumed Jojen. Jojen stating, "He is not the one who should fear" or whatever REALLY feels like Jojen knows he is in store for something rather awful at the expense of Bran. Add the blood taste, the fact that the bloodpaste is intended to awaken and strengthen Bran's greenseer abilities (Jojen was the greenseer of the group), and that Jojen has known all along he would die for Bran, and it's pretty logical.

I think we can all foresee some division between Bran and Bloodraven. Perhaps this will be their first big hurdle.

[rozemarijn]

There is an interesting question about it all though, the ancient worshippers did practice blood sacrifice, whereas the modern worshippers (Skagos aside perhaps) don't and there is a question as to what end they practice it

Ned Stark always cleans his sword in front of the heart tree. It is only drips of blood but it is blood.

There is one thing about this theory that bothers me. Bran is bloodravens replacement, so when he became what he is he must have had some Jojen paste of his own? He was already at the nights watch so someone showed up all by himself?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Ned Stark always cleans his sword in front of the heart tree. It is only drips of blood but it is blood.

There is one thing about this theory that bothers me. Bran is bloodravens replacement, so when he became what he is he must have had some Jojen paste of his own? He was already at the nights watch so someone showed up all by himself?

Nice. That's a good question. I don't see why a greenseer needs to feed on the blood of another Human to become one with a Tree. As BR told Bran, his blood makes him a greenseer. Not someone else's blood.

Now to crack some pottery. What if Coldhands was Bloodraven's sacrifice? Now unJojen will become Bran's servant. Coldfeet will be his sobriquet. :drunk:

[mediterraneo]

...There is an interesting question about it all though, the ancient worshippers did practice blood sacrifice, whereas the modern worshippers (Skagos aside perhaps) don't and there is a question as to what end they practice it

Memory doesn't assist me. Was it Bran or was it Sam passing from that Heart Tree north of the wall with burnt bones on an artificial cavity on the base? I remember whoever was having doubts about the origin of the bones, maybe human.

It could be that sacrifices are still being made somehow somewhere, if not south of the wall.

Black Crow, maybe it is you that have a good memory of what passsage I'm referring too?

[rozemarijn]

Nice. That's a good question. I don't see why a greenseer needs to feed on the blood of another Human to become one with a Tree. As BR told Bran, his blood makes him a greenseer. Not someone else's blood.

Now to crack some pottery. What if Coldhands was Bloodraven's sacrifice? Now unJojen will become Bran's servant. Coldfeet will be his sobriquet. :drunk:

So he's not Benjen after all. He was a brother of the nights watch which could explain how he and Bloodraven ended up in that cave together.

About the bones: burned bones north of the wall are a good sign, it means they cannot rise as a wight again. To be absolutely sure, why not do it in front of a heart tree? So it does not necessary mean sacrifice.

[Zoip]

Just one of my random blurps:

I think the weirwood paste is just weirwood paste. Those trees are magical enough without needing blood sacrifice. Bran and co.'s ability to warg has never needed blood sacrifices; there's no reason to think that spying through trees does either. Trees eat water and photons.

It might be coincidence, but when the direwolf pups were found, the Starks were just on their way back from an execution. Probably irrelevant but it caught my eye.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Memory doesn't assist me. Was it Bran or was it Sam passing from that Heart Tree north of the wall with burnt bones on an artificial cavity on the base? I remember whoever was having doubts about the origin of the bones, maybe human.

It could be that sacrifices are still being made somehow somewhere, if not south of the wall.

Black Crow, maybe it is you that have a good memory of what passsage I'm referring too?

That would be Jon, along with Mormont and the Watch, in Whitetree. He pulled bones and a small skull from the tree hollow.