382 replies to this topic

[Wouter]

Kennit, on 23 August 2011 - 07:27 AM, said:

No, Bran is the Greenseer. Jojen's just having greendreams, which is apparently a different ability.

Ah, yes. My mistake. Still, a "greendreamers" blood could still be "special" I suppose, for those purposes.

[Tony Rigatoni]

I like the theory, and it does seem possible, but why would his sister be upset that Jojen wants to go home? I thought that implied his greendreams showed him dying at Greywater Watch and so his father sent them to Winterfell. Now he wants to go back because the greendreams never lie when his sister thinks they should just stay safe in the caves.

However, from what we know of greendreams they are either extreamly metaphoric or very literal. If Jojen dreamed of the weirwood of Greywater Watch eating him, then it would fit perfectly with your theory. Alas, we don't know his dream so we must wait for tWoW.

[Wouter]

Tony Rigatoni, on 23 August 2011 - 08:19 AM, said:

I like the theory, and it does seem possible, but why would his sister be upset that Jojen wants to go home? I thought that implied his greendreams showed him dying at Greywater Watch and so his father sent them to Winterfell. Now he wants to go back because the greendreams never lie when his sister thinks they should just stay safe in the caves.

I don't think Meera is upset because he wants to go home (he doesn't actually leave the cave though - it would be suicide anyway, he is not going to reach Greywater Watch aboveground in this weather and with the wights around), she is upset because he has given up and is not fighting his 'fate'.

If the greendreams do show him dying at Greywater Watch, shouldn't he be rather happy to be safely in the case, far from the neck? He could still say then "today is not the day I die", since it would take a long time to go back there. However, Jojen hasn't been saying this recently - I fear his dying day is (or was) approaching.

Edited by Wouter, 23 August 2011 - 08:50 AM.

[jon rr stark]

lets face it, if you had a dream which you know is foretelling your death youed not be overly happy, that sort of thing plays on the mind. when he said before today was not the day may well it have been because he already knew he was going to help bran find his third eye. now he has he cant be sure what day is the day hes going to die, add that to the lack of food and the biting cold I'd know I'd be misirable. Hes only 12/13 GRRM dont kill him yet poor fella.

[Whatever]

I used agree with the "CotF are EVIL" theory until i reread both Bran 3 and the Dunk&Egg tales and i relaized that 1) the weirwoods basically ARE the old gods. IMO, the Old Gods aren't evil and 2)No way Bloodraven would be against the human race. That guy is the mort hardcore targaryen supporter EVER.
So, I don't know if Bran ate JojenPaste or not (although this would fit with the theme of the book) but i do think that if jojen died, his death has been a "sacrifice" in order to get something by using magic. Like one of the human scarifices we found out about in Davos 4. (I'm absolutely fine with the scarifices, BTW. I love the "wild, wild North" idea)

[dragginstoned]

Whatever, on 23 August 2011 - 08:41 AM, said:

I used agree with the "CotF are EVIL" theory until i reread both Bran 3 and the Dunk&Egg tales and i relaized that 1) the weirwoods basically ARE the old gods. IMO, the Old Gods aren't evil and 2)No way Bloodraven would be against the human race. That guy is the mort hardcore targaryen supporter EVER.
So, I don't know if Bran ate JojenPaste or not (although this would fit with the theme of the book) but i do think that if jojen died, his death has been a "sacrifice" in order to get something by using magic. Like one of the human scarifices we found out about in Davos 4. (I'm absolutely fine with the scarifices, BTW. I love the "wild, wild North" idea)

yes!  the north is dark and full of terrors

[Gravity Star]

In support of this, I found cannibalism to be a very strong theme throughout ADWD. Off the top of my head, Hardhome people are eating each other, Stannis' people are eating each other, Skagos, Frey Pie...pretty sure there is at least a few more.

[Whatever]

Gravity Star, on 23 August 2011 - 10:34 AM, said:

In support of this, I found cannibalism to be a very strong theme throughout ADWD. Off the top of my head, Hardhome people are eating each other, Stannis' people are eating each other, Skagos, Frey Pie...pretty sure there is at least a few more.

bran & co. eating Frozen Ranger beyond the wall.. "i found a sow!" yes, i bet you did

[dragginstoned]

Gravity Star, on 23 August 2011 - 10:34 AM, said:

In support of this, I found cannibalism to be a very strong theme throughout ADWD. Off the top of my head, Hardhome people are eating each other, Stannis' people are eating each other, Skagos, Frey Pie...pretty sure there is at least a few more.

Nights Watch,  the other dark meat

[Galen M]

If he kills off Meera before she and Bran realize their true love, I might just stop reading...

I agree that if Jojen is in that paste, he volunteered himself.

[Cocomaan]

Yeah, I was going to say, "This wouldn't be the first person eaten in ADWD".

Interesting that this cannibalism theme keeps coming up, as another taboo subject, incest, is pretty well covered. What's next? Bestiality? Oh wait, that was kind of covered in the prologue. Hmmm...

[dreamcatcher]

Whatever, on 23 August 2011 - 08:41 AM, said:

I used agree with the "CotF are EVIL" theory until i reread both Bran 3 and the Dunk&Egg tales and i relaized that 1) the weirwoods basically ARE the old gods. IMO, the Old Gods aren't evil and 2)No way Bloodraven would be against the human race. That guy is the mort hardcore targaryen supporter EVER.
So, I don't know if Bran ate JojenPaste or not (although this would fit with the theme of the book) but i do think that if jojen died, his death has been a "sacrifice" in order to get something by using magic. Like one of the human scarifices we found out about in Davos 4. (I'm absolutely fine with the scarifices, BTW. I love the "wild, wild North" idea)

Yeah, it could be that their cause is really good and noble, it's the means that is 'controversial'.

[Tagganaro]

It's definitely a good theory and one that has been speculated about before on here.  George either intended for us to read through the lines or is purposely being misleading on the topic as someone said above.  

As another said above, I can't imagine Bloodraven and the COTF would actually kill Jojen and then feed him to Bran, because I doubt Bran would want anything to do with them afterwards.  Plus, it's a pretty awful, undramatic ending for a really important minor character that has gone through a really epic journey with Bran.  It's tough to fathom Jojen willingly leading Bran to the Cave where Jojen knew he was going to be killed and eaten by being mixed into a paste.  

Alternate theory: Jojen is just really pissed that Bran's getting Weirwood training 101 while he's stuck doing nothing in the cave.  He knows that his mission is done now, and he's probably never going to leave the Cave again (not because he's dead, but because he's stuck there and the Others and Wights are presumably camped out outside the Cave).

Jojen might feel like he deserves to get some of Bran's training, him being a sort of mentor to Bran and helping him harness his Greensight.  Jojen and Meera are simply missing because as we know they are very bored and have taken to exploring the massive cave in their free time.

Edited by Tagganaro, 23 August 2011 - 11:42 AM.

[alguien]

Anyone notice in the ADWD appendix that one of the CotF's names was Blackknife?

Wonder why? Does he carry around an obsidian dagger?  Hope it won't be used for anything beyond killing Others...

--like in a sacrifice.

[Wouter]

Cocomaan, on 23 August 2011 - 10:58 AM, said:

Yeah, I was going to say, "This wouldn't be the first person eaten in ADWD".

Interesting that this cannibalism theme keeps coming up, as another taboo subject, incest, is pretty well covered. What's next? Bestiality? Oh wait, that was kind of covered in the prologue. Hmmm...

I didn't get that from the prologue (the point of the animals was just to kidnap the girls I thought), but it was definitely covered in Theon's chapters with poor Jeyne...

Tagganaro, on 23 August 2011 - 11:41 AM, said:

As another said above, I can't imagine Bloodraven and the COTF would actually kill Jojen and then feed him to Bran, because I doubt Bran would want anything to do with them afterwards.  Plus, it's a pretty awful, undramatic ending for a really important minor character that has gone through a really epic journey with Bran.  It's tough to fathom Jojen willingly leading Bran to the Cave where Jojen knew he was going to be killed and eaten by being mixed into a paste.

I actually think this would be really dramatic, but on condition that Jojen did not resist and more or less volunteered (a la Nissa Nissa is supposed to have done). When Bran finds out...
And Jojen explicitly said many times he knew the day he would die; this being a novel, one would expect his death to be significant and "special". If his death is what allows Bran to unleash his potential, then this sacrifice could end up being very important.

If it happened, of course.

Tagganaro, on 23 August 2011 - 11:41 AM, said:

Alternate theory: Jojen is just really pissed that Bran's getting Weirwood training 101 while he's stuck doing nothing in the cave.  He knows that his mission is done now, and he's probably never going to leave the Cave again (not because he's dead, but because he's stuck there and the Others and Wights are presumably camped out outside the Cave).

Jojen might feel like he deserves to get some of Bran's training, him being a sort of mentor to Bran and helping him harness his Greensight.  Jojen and Meera are simply missing because as we know they are very bored and have taken to exploring the massive cave in their free time.

A reasonable alternative. It could certainly be the case that they are simply attempting to find a way to leave the cave - but then it is rather unfair of Martin to end the chapter with them missing, right after he pointed our attention to the weirwood paste and its rather suspect contents.

I don't think Jojen would be jealous at Bran, but being stuck there in that cave with strange creatures and nothing to do except discover the place a bit would make many people sullen. Still, Jojen also felt he had reason to be afraid, instead of Bran.

[Tagganaro]

Wouter, on 23 August 2011 - 11:59 AM, said:

I actually think this would be really dramatic, but on condition that Jojen did not resist and more or less volunteered (a la Nissa Nissa is supposed to have done). When Bran finds out...
And Jojen explicitly said many times he knew the day he would die; this being a novel, one would expect his death to be significant and "special". If his death is what allows Bran to unleash his potential, then this sacrifice could end up being very important.

If it happened, of course.


A reasonable alternative. It could certainly be the case that they are simply attempting to find a way to leave the cave - but then it is rather unfair of Martin to end the chapter with them missing, right after he pointed our attention to the weirwood paste and its rather suspect contents.

I don't think Jojen would be jealous at Bran, but being stuck there in that cave with strange creatures and nothing to do except discover the place a bit would make many people sullen. Still, Jojen also felt he had reason to be afraid, instead of Bran.

Yeah, definitely agree that as far as theories on here go, that Jojen being dead and in the weirwood paste is extremely reasonable.  This isn't like the Wargmaster Sansa or UnBrienne/UnJaime theories, it's completely reasonable based on the text.  Definitely a possibility that Jojen is already dead, and of course it would be dramatic and amp up the intensity of Bran's chapters to 100%.  A crippled Bran stuck in a Cave where he's forced to eat his mentor and friend= intensity lol.

[Jojen]

It's possible we'll never know what happened to him. All we know is he was sick and possibly dying, and that Bran can't find him or Meera--which doesn't mean either he or Meera are dead, just that they aren't where he went looking for them. Perhaps BR sent them to do a job somewhere. That underground is pretty big. Lots of places for them to have gone.

If Bran presses BR, I can see BR hinting that they've done their part in helping Bran, maybe even asking Bran if he'd be willing to sacrifice his friends to "save the world" kinda thing to see how he'd respond. I don't think he'd ever give a straight answer.

Personally, I hope Jojen survives to the end and that greendreams can indeed fail. Otherwise, I want to see swamp ninja "Howlin' Mad" Reed  personally kick BR's bark-covered ass.

[Wouter]

You make a good point. Maybe the biggest strike against Jojen as sacrifice (unless they only used some blood of him, like Melisandre did with Edric Storm) is that Bran's POV stops mid-ADWD. If Jojen died, one would expect to see a realisation and reaction from Bran and probably a confrontation with Meera as well. Unless Bran was far ahead of the rest timewise, his next chapter should be quite a bit later than his last chapter in ADWD, which would reduce the reveal to one in flashback - seems unlikely.

Then again, chronology is hard to follow with Martin sometimes and Bran is so detached from the other POV's that is hard to get a feeling of where he is in the story. Both him and Arya may be well ahead of the rest, and so his first TWOW appearance could theoretically follow right upon Bran 3 from ADWD even though he was not in the entire second half of that book.

Edited by Wouter, 23 August 2011 - 01:41 PM.

[Cocomaan]

Wouter, on 23 August 2011 - 11:59 AM, said:

I didn't get that from the prologue (the point of the animals was just to kidnap the girls I thought), but it was definitely covered in Theon's chapters with poor Jeyne...

I was referencing Sixskins talking about the taboo against mating while warging. Kind of a kinky bestiality thing going on there.

[dragginstoned]

Well... I think this will be made explicit

GRRM did say the ending would be bittersweet.

Like Jojen paste