381 replies to this topic

[otherbeef]

i havent gone back and read the last chapter in a while, but does the text say the paste tastes like blood when he first eats it? or that it looked like blood?

we know he definitely tasted blood when he witnessed the sacrifice, but couldn't that be unrelated to the eating of the paste since he did that long before he saw the vision?

[Quiet Isle]

otherbeef, on 30 November 2012 - 12:26 AM, said:

i havent gone back and read the last chapter in a while, but does the text say the paste tastes like blood when he first eats it? or that it looked like blood?

we know he definitely tasted blood when he witnessed the sacrifice, but couldn't that be unrelated to the eating of the paste since he did that long before he saw the vision?

  "the red veins were only wierwood sap, HE SUPPOSED, but in the torchlight they looked remarkably like blood.  He dipped the spoon into the paste.....He ate.  It had a bitter taste, though not so bitter as acorn paste.  The first spoonful was the hardest to get down.  he almost retched it right back up.  The second tasted better.  The third was almost sweet.  The rest he spooned up eagerly.  Why had he thought that it was bitter?  it tasted of honey, of new-fallen snow, of pepper and cinnamon and the last kiss his mother ever gave him."

Edited by RAGNAROK, 30 November 2012 - 11:27 AM.

[evita mgfs]

I wonder at that Martin and whether he knows in advance what conclusions his fans will draw from those little mysteries he plants in his prose?  Then I wonder what little enigmas he will pepper WoW with?  He seems to dole out Bran POV’s sparingly – and then what he says  in those POV’s seems weighted with meaning and symbolism and providence.  That is why Bran’s POV’s are some of my favorites – and I cannot understand people who find them a snoozefest!  [No, that’s not fair.  I can usually see both sides of every argument – and I CAN see how some people may find his POV’s slow moving compared to those POV’s filled with action, espionage, and vengeance!]  From AGoT, I fell in love with Bran’s mystical side – and Martin still evokes my interest when he writes from Bran’s POV.
The Jojen paste conclusion is well-presented – and if Martin planned it to be a blind, then he is genius – but I think he is anyway, so either way Jojen ends up, Martin has laid the groundwork very well for more than just one scenario.

[Lion of Judah]

the Scorpion Knight, on 23 August 2011 - 07:04 AM, said:

I think jojen will sacrifice himself to awake/resurrect the rest of the COTF

Interesting, I thought he was dead by the time Bran was eating the paste so he may have already done it.

[Efilnikufesin]

Lion Of Judah, on 02 December 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

Interesting, I thought he was dead by the time Bran was eating the paste so he may have already done it.

I think they have sacrificed Bran to the CoTF, knowing much more than they have led on to Bran:

Quote

“The secrets of the old gods,” said Jojen Reed. Food and fire and rest had helped restore him
after the ordeals of their journey, but he seemed sadder now, sullen, with a weary, haunted look about
the eyes. “Truths the First Men knew, forgotten now in Winterfell … but not in the wet wild. We live
closer to the green in our bogs and crannogs, and we remember. Earth and water, soil and stone, oaks
and elms and willows, they were here before us all and will still remain when we are gone.”
“So will you,” said Meera. That made Bran sad. What if I don’t want to remain when you are
gone? he almost asked, but he swallowed the words unspoken. He was almost a man grown, and he did
not want Meera to think he was some weepy babe. “Maybe you could be greenseers too,” he said
instead.
“No, Bran.” Now Meera sounded sad. “It is given to a few to drink of that green fountain whilst
still in mortal flesh, to hear the whisperings of the leaves and see as the trees see, as the gods see,” said
Jojen. “Most are not so blessed. The gods gave me only greendreams. My task was to get you here. My
part in this is done.”

Edited by Efilnikufesin, 02 December 2012 - 11:57 PM.

[Maester Jamf]

I don't know if anyone has already brought this up but I came across this historical tidbit and couldn't help but see Jojen and Meera in it.  Seeing as how GRRM is fond of English history perhaps this offers some clues.

http://en.wikipedia....dren_of_Woolpit

Quickly summed it's a story from medieval England of two children with green skin that claim to have come from an underground world.  While that's of course not Jojen and Meera's story, GRRM doesn't do 1-1 translations and could have served as inspiration for the greenseer plotline.

[Daenerys is my queen]

chrisdaw, on 27 November 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

It's difficult to explain that he had to eat his friend for the greater good and they're trying to avoid doing it for as long as possible or when he has a better understanding of what is at play, rather than telling him now and having him not trust them and refusing to continue training.

Bran doesn't see Meera after the paste.

I thought Bran saw Meera crying after that. Or am I remembering wrong?

[Bastard of the White Knife]

Daenerys is my queen, on 11 December 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

I thought Bran saw Meera crying after that. Or am I remembering wrong?

I haven't gone back and looked but your recollection is the same as mine.  I don't remember if Bran observed her crying or if she just seemed "sad."

[Daenerys is my queen]

Bastard of the White Knife, on 13 December 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

I haven't gone back and looked but your recollection is the same as mine.  I don't remember if Bran observed her crying or if she just seemed "sad."

Yeah, I remember her seeming sad as well.

[willy york]

all the foreshadowing of jojen's death makes me think jojen actually was in the paste.

[Know Face Man]

Jojen is not dead. Meera told Bran that he wanted to go home that he wasn't even going to fight his fate because the green dreams never lie.

Jojen wouldn't want to go home if he knew he was going to die in the cave. He would just except it. Jojen is alive

[Head of The Ned]

Know Face Man, on 14 December 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

Jojen is not dead. Meera told Bran that he wanted to go home that he wasn't even going to fight his fate because the green dreams never lie.

Jojen wouldn't want to go home if he knew he was going to die in the cave. He would just except it. Jojen is alive

That same logic can be used to prove Jojen is dead.

[Steve Stark]

I brought this up a long time ago, and I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw something sinister happening here. Of course I was joking when I first brought it up...and now you all have gone and freaked me out.

Bran's story is certainly one of the darker and more interesting portions of the novel in the later books it would seem, now that the the "light magic" within the books is starting to surface more and more.

[booknerd2]

Dear Lord...

I just had a Golden Child with Eddie Murphy flash back. The blood-soaked oatmeal! Gah!

Funnily enough, Charles "Tywin" Dance plays the antagonist.

I am not sure I can get with this theory. Jojen salsa...What do they tell Howland if he appears? This is how the Starks repay him. His son dies?

I think he was just brooding on his visions of his death. As far as tasting blood. Bran has done that alot through Summer. Maybe with the paste his sensory/memories were heightened? Flashes of things?

I'm not knocking the theory, I think I have to let it marinate a bit.

Edit:  I really should pick a better word than marinate. LOL!

Edited by booknerd2, 28 December 2012 - 10:38 PM.

[Nexonic]

Even if Jojen was made into paste we could still view his death through Bran's POV as he greensees into the past. Perhaps he will ask BR where Jojen is and BR will say look...

[Chocolate_dream]

I completely missed it.  Partly because I generally skim over Bran's chapter but now having re-read it, whoa.  The first time I knew something was up with Jojen and I was quite sure something bad had happened to him but I didn't put Jojen + bloody paste together.  It's actually quite brilliant and poetic.

He's most definitely dead.  If not dead then dying at the very least and partly turned to paste.  Nothing else makes sense.  How can people read through this many books in asoaif and still be so naive?  I guess people are still waiting for the chosen one to come and save the day.

Also, red herrings are like Robb, Renly and Azor Ahai (big, bold and hard to miss) not subtle imagery like this.

Edited by Chocolate_dream, 16 February 2013 - 09:45 AM.

[Profion]

Jojen does say something like "it´s not him who should be afraid", so I guess it´s safe to assume he is in danger and knows it.

[Maegi]

Wouter, on 23 August 2011 - 01:23 PM, said:

You make a good point. Maybe the biggest strike against Jojen as sacrifice (unless they only used some blood of him, like Melisandre did with Edric Storm) is that Bran's POV stops mid-ADWD. If Jojen died, one would expect to see a realisation and reaction from Bran and probably a confrontation with Meera as well. Unless Bran was far ahead of the rest timewise, his next chapter should be quite a bit later than his last chapter in ADWD, which would reduce the reveal to one in flashback - seems unlikely.

Then again, chronology is hard to follow with Martin sometimes and Bran is so detached from the other POV's that is hard to get a feeling of where he is in the story. Both him and Arya may be well ahead of the rest, and so his first TWOW appearance could theoretically follow right upon Bran 3 from ADWD even though he was not in the entire second half of that book.

Amin, on 23 August 2011 - 01:54 PM, said:

Does Jojen specifically need to die for JojenPaste? Can't they be leeching him like Melisandre leeched Edric?

Galen M, on 23 August 2011 - 10:10 PM, said:

well, as a former chef, this isn't quite right.  You use the bones, some organs, etc. to make the base, strain it, and then stew the meat.

However, this theory isn't about Jojen stew, it's about a weirwood paste that specifically contains his blood, and blood is one thing that is never used for stew.

I like all of these approaches!

I too think it's the blood of Jojen streaked into a weir wood paste.  I imagine it like those soft serve ice creams with "ribbons" of flavor, clearly different from the substance it is in.  

It makes more sense to me that Jojen's blood is being used that his flesh and meaty parts (if he has any after the night of starvation they had just gone through).   Draining Jojen of blood is likely to last longer, and we don't know how much of the veiny- paste Bran needs to eat to come into his full potential, so maybe it's a process of bleeding Jojen like one would milk a cow - I know, a terrible analogy.  
I also find Bran's description of the taste of the paste rather compelling.  If you've ever sucked the blood from a quick cut in your finger, it tastes sharp and bitter at first, but you get used it pretty quickly.  I agree this is a grim prospect,  it not at all out of line with the story GRRM is writing.  I psonally believe that at some point Ban will warg into Jojen when he leaves the cave.  I take this to be Jojen's death, rather than a literal sacrifice.  W know that prophecies in this series normally require a twist, and I see this as probable.  I feel .ike Bran's warging of Hodor is just practice for a crueler, more taboo.  This would be a greater and more twisted sacrifice on Jojen's part.  And I am one of those who won't ever like the non-Arya Starks unless they turn out to be ancient-grey-magic-wielding-frights-of -the -north!

[Khal Pono]

_{LOL. Jojen Paste. LOL.}

[Game of Shae]

I haven't read every reply on this topic but has anyone mentioned that Bran sees a "white-haired woman" step forward with the sickle when he sees the sacrifice and earlier in the chapter the singer who gives Bran the bowl with the paste is the "white-haired one that Meera had named Snowylocks"?

Theres just too many hints and coincidences for there to not be something to this theory.