388 replies to this topic

[Amin]

Does Jojen specifically need to die for JojenPaste? Can't they be leeching him like Melisandre leeched Edric?

[dreamcatcher]

Sabzevarian, on 23 August 2011 - 01:54 PM, said:

Does Jojen specifically need to die for JojenPaste? Can't they be leeching him like Melisandre leeched Edric?

If that really was JojenPaste, there were veins in it...  

Quote

Something about the look of it made Bran feel ill. The red veins were only weirwood sap, he
supposed, but in the torchlight they looked remarkably like blood. He dipped the spoon into the paste,
then hesitated. “Will this make me a greenseer?”

Edited by dreamcatcher, 23 August 2011 - 01:59 PM.

[Ishuäl]

That seems likely. Very interesting, and creepy... A lot of cannibalism going around in ADwD

[Brienne the Beauty]

I think Jojen will willingly go to his death to fully bind Bran to the Weirwoods, which will make Bran one of the Old Gods. I don't think he's dead yet. He need to say "This is the day that I die" first. For drama!

[jon rr stark]

Dont buy this Jojen paste thing at all. Basically, Neds son eating Howlands son. Seems to me to go againist everythinh Stark. When Bran sees beyond the weirwoods he will know and that would not be something any Stark could live with. I think Jojens and Brans paths may depart now. Those caves go somewhere. The CotF have being around for thousands of years, they must have more than one entrance and exit. He may come to a sad end as his purpose is complete as far as we know but not a scarfice.
I think such blood magic is for Mels god etc. The one Bran saw revolted him and just because men long ago scarficed people to the weirwood doesn't mean the old gods wanted that.

[Dragons Dancing]

Brienne the Beauty, on 23 August 2011 - 03:10 PM, said:

I think Jojen will willingly go to his death to fully bind Bran to the Weirwoods, which will make Bran one of the Old Gods. I don't think he's dead yet. He need to say "This is the day that I die" first. For drama!

I think George will let us see Jojen again, maybe finding something spectacularly interesting in the tunnels or maybe trying to escape and becoming a wight. It sounds like Jojen thinks he has to go home to die. We know that Jojen follows his dreams so whatever this dream of his death is, he may not like it but he will do what he needs to make it happen. I think we will learn of his dream in AWOW and it will help understand his final sacrifice which I hope is not becoming cheesy weirwood paste.

[pappymojo]

Gravity Star, on 23 August 2011 - 10:34 AM, said:

In support of this, I found cannibalism to be a very strong theme throughout ADWD. Off the top of my head, Hardhome people are eating each other, Stannis' people are eating each other, Skagos, Frey Pie...pretty sure there is at least a few more.

From AFFC, Manderly's son being fed Roast Goat.

[Miriel]

Bran the soon to be tree eating Jojen paste. How depressing.  I agree it is not an totally without merit theory.  But I really hope it is not true.

Bran sees a 'captive' being killed at the heart tree in the vision.  It was not clear to me from my reading of it that it was a sacrifice.  It could have been, but it also could have been an execution.  That fact that a woman did it does kind of make it seem to be a sacrifice though... And that Bran tastes blood right after that.  Hard to see alternative explanations to Jojenpaste after that. But I really hope it is not true.  Just too yucky.

[Ser Bronn o the Blackwater]

I also believe it's possible, but hope it's not true. But it does bother me how Martin specifically used the sentence, "The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife." about four or five times in that chapter...

[dragginstoned]

Ser Bronn o the Blackwater, on 23 August 2011 - 04:35 PM, said:

I also believe it's possible, but hope it's not true. But it does bother me how Martin specifically used the sentence, "The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife." about four or five times in that chapter...

Like the bronze sickle in the sacrifice vision, which tasted like blood.

yeah... I'm sold.. sorry Jojen.

[Zizoz]

Jojen's frequent mention of "the day I die" makes me believe that we will see his death. Thus, I think he's still alive. That said, the theory is very plausible. Maybe I'm wrong. Or maybe Jojen will die in the prologue to Winds.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Zizoz, on 23 August 2011 - 05:11 PM, said:

Jojen's frequent mention of "the day I die" makes me believe that we will see his death. Thus, I think he's still alive. That said, the theory is very plausible. Maybe I'm wrong. Or maybe Jojen will die in the prologue to Winds.

I too would expect us to see his death. But with Bran being able to see into the past, that would be consistent with the Joj paste. Maybe that's even how Bran will find out the CotF killed Jojen. Alternatively, that may be how he'll find out that the sacrifice was voluntary on Jojen's part. All assuming that GRRM hasn't red herringed us here of course.

[StarkofWinterfell]

What do you mean us?

I surely don't believe this crackpot theory

[dragginstoned]

StarkofWinterfell, on 23 August 2011 - 06:03 PM, said:

What do you mean us?

I surely don't believe this crackpot theory

Why?  Because the old gods are all rainbows and the north is held together by puppydog kisses.

Dont be such a Tommen about the whole deal.

You know Jojen's doomed.  Then, no Jojen.  then strange bloodlike magic food.  then Bran sees an execution in the  pre-andal north.  He says "NO!", he's used to the idea of the Stark doing it himself.  

He screams and tastes blood.

Jojen's a snack and BRAN KNOWS IT.

Relax, and have a slice of pie.  Or some soup.

[StarkofWinterfell]

All purely speculation and conjecture.

As they say "show me the money!"

Jojen is most definitely alive

[dragginstoned]

StarkofWinterfell, on 23 August 2011 - 06:12 PM, said:

All purely speculation and conjecture.

As they say "show me the money!"

Jojen is most definitely alive

The guess whoose comming to dinner arguement has well... arguements.

Please present to me a counter-narrative not based on "but I like Jojen" and I'll give it fair consideration.

The this is not the day I die arguement could very well be a red herring.  or a bowl of red paste... or bowl of brown.

[Ivy Snow]

Oh dear gods, I hope he didn't become Jojen paste... but I really wonder how and when he would die... He seems so sullen lately so I guess he is gonna die soon. When he said Bran shouldn't be the one to be afraid, well that means him and Meera and prolly Hodor should be afraid of something there... Maybe Cotf aren't exactly squeaky clean. In Martin's world, no one is maybe, except Hodor. lol

[King_Baratheon]

starkloyalist, on 22 August 2011 - 01:29 PM, said:

I recently reread the Bran and Reed chapters in the COTF caves with Bloodraven and a sneaking suspicion I had in my first read through has solidified into something I would be surprised to find out not to be true. This being: Jojen Reed was sacrificed to the Old Gods and then fed to Bran in the weirwood paste in order to awaken his latent ability to warg into weirwood.

Now, you have to read between the lines in order to come to this conclusion, but I believe the hints are disturbingly clear in retrospect. Jojen's deepening gloom and sense of his impending demise, Bran seeing ancient Men sacrificing humans to the Old Gods and then tasting their blood, Bran's initial perception that the weirwood paste had blood in it and his initial revulsion at its taste, and finally Bran's looking for Jojen and Meera as his last chapter in the book closes and not finding them. Also, to a lesser extent, the ancient bones of animals and humans scattered through the caves.

Add on top of this a broader theme in Martin's work; that magic comes with a price. Dany's sacrifice of her unborn child to "save" Drogo and burning of the witch to wake the dragons. The burnt human sacrifices that the Fire God's disciples give him for power. Craster sacrificing his sons to the Others. Bran having to partake in a human sacrifice for his expanded powers would fit perfectly into this pattern. Which is why, along with the context clues in his chapters, I believe Jojen was that sacrifice. Which is dark. And creepy. And kind of pretty freakin' cool.

Thoughts? Counter arguments? I also realize that this is probably not a original take on this chapter, but I have not seen it discussed recently and am curious to see how many people had the same idea that I have about it.

I think it is all a red herring; though it could not be, and Bran ate himself a Jojen patte. I think GRRM woulda made a bigger deal about it if it was indeed Jojen paste. But who knows? What about Meera? She's always so concerned about her brother. Are TCotF just gonna say "Oh yea..the little weakling melancholy kid? He went for a walk outside with all the Frost Zombies...He should be back an time now..."

But seriously, who knows with GRRM. I actually likes when he makes things magical things morbid. I HATE the whole Harry Potter happy fun magic time. If there is magic it needs to be some freaking consequence ridden bloodmagic.

[Completely Headless Ned]

It seemed to me that Jojen was becoming actually sick, not just that he was depressed.  I like Jojen and hope that was not the day he dies, but I could see him sacrificing himself or if the COTF are evil that they killed him.

Edited by REID1990, 23 August 2011 - 07:23 PM.

[WalkAmok]

The JojenPaste (such an exciting word!) theory seems to be the most plausible, given the evidence in the chapter. However, I feel closing Bran off into the weirwoods and sacrificing his friends seems to run counter to the general theme of maturation and growing up that characterizes all the child POVs in the series. If the JojenPaste theory is true and he was killed offscreen, I doubt we will see much more of Bran as his character now has much less room to interact and develop in interesting ways.