The new Sansa

[Light a wight tonight]

Sansa is growing up, surprise! She was full of fanciful ideas about chivalry as a kid, but her experiences at Riverrun cure her of that. She certainly has benefited from her exposure to Littlefinger, learning how things can be manipulated. Somehow I get a feeling that the scene with the drunken Hound is a catalyst of sorts, too.

[LuisDantas]

Having just finished the first Alayne chapter, some things jump out.

First, Sansa is in serious, serious mental trouble. Her identity is slipping ever so gradually through her fingers, she has got a huge case of Stockholm Syndrome, and she is buying a lot of the cheap stuff that Petyr Baelish is pushing her. The damage to her moral values is already considerable and is building further.

Then there is Petyr himself. He comes across as surprisingly vulnerable, despite being as cunning and manipulative as ever. Yet he lets Sansa in much of his plans, far more than he actually needed to. By this point Sansa could do him a lot of damage if she did manage to escape the grasp of her Stockhold Syndrome. There is no reason for Petyr to expose himself so much for Sansa except to earn her trust and cooperation. Between that and his line about the Lords Declarant leaving "his son" alone it is apparent that deep down Petyr has convinced himself that he is a family man of some sort - or maybe he is doing a pretty good job at pretending to be.

For good or worse, Sansa is learning a lot from Petyr and has developed a good grasp of his mental processes. If she ever manages the courage to confront him, she will be well aware of his tactics and weaknesses (the main one being that he counts on everyone around him to be either bribeable or easily swayed by superficial appearances). She may well develop into a formidable, even definitive enemy for Petyr - or his most devious disciple, instead. Or both.

Another interesting weakness of Petyr, one that he may have failed to truly realize even, is his huge need for approval and encouragement. One of the reasons why he uses flattery so well is because he wants to encourage people to return the favor. In his own sick, twisted way he even makes a point of making Sansa witness of how much he wanted Catelyn's love and keeps Sansa around for no other good reason. His lack of personal purpose and of trust in other people is truly crippling and certain to be his downfall.

[Caro99]

when i finished reading AFFC i didn't get the impression sansa was that excited about marrying again so maybe she will step up tp LF and tell him that and that she does not want to be involved in killing little robert... though i have no idea what LF would do then..?

[Light a wight tonight]

Not likely that Sansa marries Sweetrobin, her first cousin. Too close a degree of consanguinity. And the illigitimate "Alayne" is an entirely unsuitable match for him.

Stockholm syndrome? LF did rescue her from both Riverrun, where she'd have been on trial with Tyrion for Joff's murder, and from Lysa's attempt to "make her fly". He's not her abductor. She may be a synthetic or substitute Cate in LF's mind, and is a major gamepiece in Westerosi politics, so she's of great value to him.

She's picking up on plotting skills from Petyr and has the potential to be a power in the future.

[LuisDantas]

Not likely that Sansa marries Sweetrobin, her first cousin. Too close a degree of consanguinity. And the illigitimate "Alayne" is an entirely unsuitable match for him.

Stockholm syndrome? LF did rescue her from both Riverrun, where she'd have been on trial with Tyrion for Joff's murder, and from Lysa's attempt to "make her fly". He's not her abductor.

He created a situation in King's Landing (not Riverrun) where she would be made a suspect and arguably an accomplice at a murder (a King's murder at that), then "rescued" her - involving her in yet another murder while at it. And in so doing, robbed her from the right to use her own name.

That is not quite abduction. It is abduction as a side-effect of something far more complex and more obnoxious.

And then he created (against Sansa's will) the situation that unhinged Lysa to the point of attempting to murder her own niece.

So in what sense is she not suffering from Stockholm's syndrome?

She may be a synthetic or substitute Cate in LF's mind, and is a major gamepiece in Westerosi politics, so she's of great value to him.

She's picking up on plotting skills from Petyr and has the potential to be a power in the future.

If she can rescue her own mental and moral sanity at some point, yes, she has.

[JasonR02]

Reading the change in Sansa was one of my favorite things about this book. Every book has managed to change how I thought about another character. Storm of Swords made Jamie Lannister one of my favorite characters(something was constantly told by people would happen and refused to believe). I thought Feast For Crows would change Cersei for me. The chapters from her perspective only solidified how I already felt about her. Sansa on the other hand I really enjoyed in this book. She was a character I just didn't care for. I felt bad for her, but she was a bit insufferable. I used to wonder how on Earth this girl was a Stark. Sansa has finally started growing up though. Her time with Petyr has been good for her. I'm ready for her to enter in as a major player soon.

[Light a wight tonight]

He created a situation in King's Landing (not Riverrun) where she would be made a suspect and arguably an accomplice at a murder (a King's murder at that), then "rescued" her - involving her in yet another murder while at it. And in so doing, robbed her from the right to use her own name.

That is not quite abduction. It is abduction as a side-effect of something far more complex and more obnoxious.

And then he created (against Sansa's will) the situation that unhinged Lysa to the point of attempting to murder her own niece.

So in what sense is she not suffering from Stockholm's syndrome?

If she can rescue her own mental and moral sanity at some point, yes, she has.

I'll give you Kings Landing. Somehow i got the names crossed.

I don't see how she's "involved" in the murder of Dontos other than as a witness. Her invovement in Joff's poisoning was entirely unwitting. It takes some odd logic to call an engineered escape an abduction when remaining where she was would have been hazardous to her health. You think Cersei would have treated her gently?

Stockholm Syndrome is a bonding with your captor. I don't sense a bonding there. Petyr is just a less-threatening figure, compared to Lysa, Sandor, Cersei, those of the Kings Guard who have beaten her, a few others she has been in exposed to. She certainly doesn't like or trust him, but for the time is obliged to depend on him to stay alive.

[trueWaif]

I LOVE Sansa in AFFC. She's learning how to become a player, and I don't think she'll ever lose her "goodness", I do believe she knows it's place and value. She's becoming more bitter sweet, not just sticky sweet. In a Cersei chapter it is mentioned that a fortune teller (?) told her

she'd be over thrown by a younger and more beautiful queen, Cersei believes that to be Margery, but I think it's really Sansa. I think Sansa will be able to have what Cersei can never have, the love and affection of the those around her, and tht will make Sansa stronger. Cersei is such an idiot to not relize what a tool she's given up.

[trueWaif]

*double post* sorry

[Ser Leo Targaryen]

Having just finished the first Alayne chapter, some things jump out.

First, Sansa is in serious, serious mental trouble.

By this point Sansa could do him a lot of damage if she did manage to escape the grasp of her Stockhold Syndrome.

I think that saying she has serious mental trouble is kind of harsh... But I do get your point about the Stockholm Syndrome. I thought the same when I started the book. After the ending of SoS, I thought she'd be totally creeped out, and afraid of him and what he might do, but she just saw him as a savior...

But Martin really managed to take us together in her ride, and in the end, I think it creates many interesting situation.

But I guess that ultimately the two characters are going to have to fight each other, and I look forward to that!

[Tibor]

I think that Tyrion is still alive, so Sansa Lannister won't be of much use to Pyter once this is known in Westros.

[KhaleesiDany]

I think that Tyrion is still alive, so Sansa Lannister won't be of much use to Pyter once this is known in Westros.

But don't you think their marriage will be anulled? That's what I'm hoping for >_> They never consummated it, she was not of legal age at the time, and it was technically raptus. Vows said at the end of a sword are not true vows...

[Lady Sansa Stark]

I really like Sansa, I've liked her since book 1.

that's why I hope she kills Littlefinger at some point, when she finds out that he triggered the war and betrayed her father. And I hope she finds true love and be happy somewhere, preferably in Winterfell of course.

I think the young queen will be Daenerys, sadly enough because I don't like her and I don't want her to become the queen of Westeros. I don't wish her dead or something, but I just hope she goes to.. Dragonstone for that matter.

But then we have the problem of Young Griff..