The Pirate and the Reaver

[Westeros]

Two more casting notes have come in today, and these are quite fun. First off, despite our own thinking that the Iron Islands casting had pretty much wrapped up, it appears that the old master-at-arms of Pyke, Dagmer Cleftjaw, has been cast according to Winter is Coming. British actor Ralph Ineson apparently has the role—quite a change from the character as described, at least age-wise, as Cleftjaw’s said to have a snow-white beard and seems to sound as if he’s in his late 50’s or early 60’s. We’re going to guess that the wound that gives Cleftjaw his name is not going to even be attempted by the show, as that’d be rather extreme make-up! Ineson is among the new cast members who can be found on Twitter.

And just now, EW has the scoop on the casting of Salladhor Saan, a Lyseni pirate king who hires his sails out to Stannis Baratheon, and is an old friend of Davos Seaworth. According to EW, British-born stage and actor Lucian Msamati—who I remember very fondly from HBO’s The No. 1 Ladies’ Detective Agency as JLB Matekoni—has been cast in the role.

Given our previous casting exclusive regarding Pyat Pree (which also discusses the casting of Balon Greyjoy and Podrick Payne), I think there’s a topic we need to revisit…

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[Knurk]

Seriously, I get it that some people (like you) are heavily invested in the books. But most tv-viewers won't give a rat's ass about the reason the city of Quarth is so diverse, or that people from Lys are not the same colour. From a tv-making point of view this makes a lot of sense, adding some colour to our screens makes it more enjoyable for most viewers.

[eleusis]

The Free Cities are way more cosmopolitan than Westeros, and I don't think there's anything wrong with Lys having some black people in it. Concerns like this always seem more about white subconscious notions of white-as-normal than they seem to be about worldbuilding. Qarth, likewise, seems based on Ancient Persia, which was an empire that had people of many different races in it.

"This city can't possibly have black people in it!" is always a pretty ridiculous thing to say, no matter how delicately you choose to phrase it.

[Arrogant Bastard]

Seriously, I get it that some people (like you) are heavily invested in the books. But most tv-viewers won't give a rat's ass about the reason the city of Quarth is so diverse, or that people from Lys are not the same colour. From a tv-making point of view this makes a lot of sense, adding some colour to our screens makes it more enjoyable for most viewers.

I agree. I doubt the show will even mention that he's from Lys. I think Lys has been mentioned one time in teh show, in a throwaway line by Littlefinger that nobody who hasn't read the books would remember anyway. Saan is such a minor character--minor being that there are at least fifty other characters in the tv series alone who are more important--that I don't see why they would need to retain his exact backstory or origins from the book. Also, I doubt they will even mention the name of his ship and even if they did, the average viewer will not discern how it's important--I've read the series a few times and I don't remember or really care about the ship name or how it relates to Saan. Pretty much Saan can have a throwaway line about being from teh Summer Isles and then play the character exactly the same as in the books if that's how they choose to write him for the show.

[Kingslayer]

Agree with everything the good posters above me have said. Also, giving all of Essos a multiethnic look is probably the easiest way to make it "different." One glance at the screen, and even casual viewers will know we're not in Westeros anymore.

[jurble]

Of all the Free Cities to give a black person though...

[Chuck Klingbeil]

It's really much ado about nothing. If GRRM is cool with it, why should anyone else be upset. Silliness.

[Ran]

What The Horns said -- Lys is the only Free City where the ethnicity and appearance of the people can genuinely matter to the plot, really (though the particular efforts of the Volantene to retain the purity of Valyrian blood would be a nice thing to see, if we ever get that far), so it's just strange to me that they would decide to take the one Lyseni character added in ACoK and drop that aspect.

Like I said, if they choose to say he's from somewhere else, or they just ignore the question at all and just vaguely indicate he's from the east, I've got no issues at all. I just want Lys to remain much as it is in the books, since GRRM does seem to be signalling that their background is important (or at least potentially important).

[Knurk]

I get it that you like to see it that way, but lineages just don't work well on tv. The 'black-haired' Baratheons, the 'golden-haired' Lannisters didn't exactly work out well on screen. Why can't black people decend from Valyria? Someone just says: Salladhor has old Valyrian blood in him, and voila: in the tv-show there were also black people in Valyria.

[Ran]

Knurk,

But... why do that? What benefit is there to just dumping George's worldbuilding? When you can just adjust the character's own origins, or just not address them at all?

ETA: By the by, for the purposes of the show, they feel they've done enough to make Lannisters blond and Baratheons black haired (yes, they genuinely consider Mark Addy black haired in the role). They even gave Isaac red highlights, apparently, for his hair, to try and get a sense of the fact that most of the Stark kids are red-haired. So, actually, they've been making vague efforts to being accurate with appearances.

[Arrogant Bastard]

I get it that you like to see it that way, but lineages just don't work well on tv. The 'black-haired' Baratheons, the 'golden-haired' Lannisters didn't exactly work out well on screen. Why can't black people decend from Valyria? Someone just says: Salladhor has old Valyrian blood in him, and voila: in the tv-show there were also black people in Valyria.

Good point. Gendry also doesn't really look like Robert at all, but that scene with Ned examining his face and realizing he's Robert's bastard still worked mainly because the audience just takes for granted that Ned is right. He also looks nothing like Renly, and he is mistaken for him in AFFC but at least so far that hasn't amounted to anything important that could affect the show.

Still, I'd prefer of they just don't mention where Salla is from or mention teh Summer Islands, just to keep some continuity with the books. Although most likely Lys will never be seen and there aren't really any important characters from there that I can recall, or if there aret, it's not really important that they're from Lys. And if I'm wrong and it is important, it won't really be unless teh show gets to season five, and by that time I'm sure they can write their way around it.

With Pyat Pree being played by a white Anglo actor, I'm curious if they'll keep Xaro as a Qartheen or if he will become a foreign merchant. I'm interested in how the citizens (extras) of Qarth will look, although they might just keep most of the action indoors in Xaro's mansion, although there's definitely one scene that needs to be played outside with people around.

[Knurk]

Maybe the showrunners want to have diversity in Essos that GRRM couldn't provide for them in the books , or they just want to have an easier time casting.

[Knurk]

Replying to your ETA Ran:

I'm assuming the producers are self-critical enough that they saw it eventually didn't work out on screen. Obviously the Baratheons weren't dark-black, Bran had more Stark-hair, and Lannister-blond was ehm, what actually?

Working with this new knowledge, I'm going on a limb here and say the producers are now thinking: "screw appearances" and they don't want to constrain themselves this season to "pureborn" people or "white lineage from Valyria." I applaud them for that, better change some appearances for the sake of casting and diversity than changing the plot.

[Ran]

Knurk,

Sure. But why keep him Lyseni when there's a possible plot point buried in their homogeneous appearance?

I'm not opposed to diversity. I look forward to Msamati quite a bit, having really enjoyed him in T#1LDA. I think Nonso Anozi as Xaro will be very interesting (but probably very, very different from the character as written -- he's a big, burly guy, a "muscular" actor, while Xaro's anything but). But I hope they try to keep internal consistency in mind, and attempt to capture some of the same things that GRRM was doing. Qarth as this decadent, insular culture -- sort of Melnibonian, I think that may have been an influence -- just feels very vivid and interesting, whereas just some mishmash of people with no rhyme or reason doesn't because I've already seen this in a half a dozen (much lamer) fantasy TV shows and films.

[Knurk]

I get where you're coming from Ran, I too hope that we get the decadency and insularity of the Quartheen. But in my opinion, it simply doesn't have to be based on the 'pureborn' aspect so it doesn't have to be one race. It's obvious you see the 'mixed races' of Quarth and Lys as a huge deviation from the book, I only see it as a minor one. The mixed races-origin can be explained easily, and simply makes for a more interesting viewing experience because of the diversity.

I actually think they won't say Salladhor is from Lys, but if they did it still wouldn't be a big point anyway. What would be interesting to know is what the casting sheet for Salladhor said, will they specifically have asked for a black actor?

[Ran]

I don't see what's so interesting about diversity, in and of itself, though. Does one crowd of extras seem more interesting than any other crowd of extras? I can't see it. Should I watch a documentary about the ethnically-diverse favelas of Rio de Janeiro instead of a documentary about ethnically homogeneous Inuit? I mean, it's apples and oranges in my mind.

A heterogeneous Qarth will say something about them... but it won't be the same thing that GRRM wanted to say about them. So I'm really hoping it's homogeneous, with Xaro or Pyat being more the exception than the rule, simply because they'll then be capturing part of the essence of the writing in a very deliberate way.

Certainly, I think no one wants to feel like the show is partaking of lazy storytelling. All the effort they put into the sets, costumes, etc., you sort of hope they put it into the worldbuilding as well.

It's entirely possible they'll never mention Salla is from Lys or any other particular place. I'm perfectly fine with that.

[Été]

I agree that it seems wrong to simply disregard the way characters and societies are described, but a lot of the world-building is simply not going to make it into the show. Some of the subplots and some of the subtleties are going to be lost. If viewers never hear that Lyseni are blond and blue-eyed then Salladhor Saan won't seem atypical, and if viewers don't see much of Qarth or its 'pureborn' movement, they won't bat an eye at ethnic homogeneity.

Fans of the books would appreciate it if the showrunners did adhere to those details even if they don't get flagged up in the show, but if they were ultimately important to the core plot, I imagine GRRM would have raised objections - he has input in casting, doesn't he?

[jurble]

If they DO keep Saan's ethnicity as Lyseni

It's totally going to mess with Young Griff's fake-ness. Unless they plan on making some Lyseni randomly black and others randomly Valyrian.

[Été]

If they DO keep Saan's ethnicity as Lyseni

It's totally going to mess with Young Griff's fake-ness. Unless they plan on making some Lyseni randomly black and others randomly Valyrian.

There are blue-eyed blondes without a drop of the blood of old Valyria. What about Lynesse Hightower? We're going to have Edric Dayne and Aurane Waters wandering around with classic Targ features, too, if they're ever cast. The fact that Serra is Lyseni is a clue to her looks, but she doesn't need to be specifically Lyseni to have them.

[jurble]

'tis true. But the fact that since book 1 or whatever, we've heard repeatedly that half the whores in Lys have the Valyrian silvery hair, is one of the best foreshadowings that Y.G. is fake.