Are there any Blackfyre heirs left?

[Ser Barristan Selmy]

I'm most definitely on board with this theory, and think it would be one of the best revelations in the series. Imagine that Varys and Illyrio aren't orchestrating the return of the Targaryens, but the return of the Blackfyres. The level of depth George created with the backstory is astonishing.

Here is some food for thought regarding Illyrio decending from the female Blackfyre line:

Aegon IV, known as Aegon the Unworthy, is considered one of the worst Targaryen kings. He sired numerous bastards and had them all legitimized on his deathbed.

According to a semi-canon source, he began his reign young and handsome but ended it old and corrupt. By the end of it he was bloated and fat. His eyes were almost lost in the fat of his face, his legs to weak to support his belly. He had a small mouth and a large beard used in an attempt to cover the fat of his neck and face. He had a new crown made, huge and heavy, red gold, each of its points a dragon head with gemstone eyes.^[6] On his coinage, he was depicted with a beard.

Similarities? Perhaps Aegon really is an Aegon, but not Rhaegar's

Note: I just reread my post. I'm sorry if it's reaching and a bit confusing. I was getting at Illyrio being a decendent of the female Blackfyre line and named his son, Aegon, after Aegon the Unworthy, who was the father to all of the bastards.

[Whatever]

Dany herself could have ended up in a pleasure house in Lys. What if Illyrio had taken her from Viserys and sold her to such a pleasure house, instead of to Drogo? What if she had been taken captive in the first battle around Yunkai, where Yunkai's envoy said this to her:

Furthermore, we have only Illyrio's word that Serra was a slave. If it was an arranged (by Varys?) marriage instead, with a free woman, would he tell us (or Tyrion)?

Dany was alone, without friends. IF serra was the last blackfyre heir, she wouldn't be alone. She could have gone to the G.C.

Also, Illyrio wasn't lying about serra being a slave. First, it's easy to verify. Second, the details he included (the door of the palace were closed to me threafter, but the price was enough) made me think he was telling the truth. No need to include that part in a lie (it would work anyway) and illyio wouldn't imagine that part if he never experienced it

[Wouter]

Dany was alone, without friends. IF serra was the last blackfyre heir, she wouldn't be alone. She could have gone to the G.C.

Also, Illyrio wasn't lying about serra being a slave. First, it's easy to verify. Second, the details he included (the door of the palace were closed to me threafter, but the price was enough) made me think he was telling the truth. No need to include that part in a lie (it would work anyway) and illyio wouldn't imagine that part if he never experienced it

He was probably telling the truth I guess (though Tyrion wasn't really in a position to verify it, he couldn't move freely in Pentos for obvious reasons). On the other point, I don't think the Golden Company accepts women and I'm not sure if they would want to "babysit" one.

[Dragonfish]

Dany was alone, without friends. IF serra was the last blackfyre heir, she wouldn't be alone. She could have gone to the G.C.

Dany had plenty of friends when Grazdan threatened to sell her to the pleasure houses. If he had succeeded in breaking her host and capturing her, I have no doubt that he would and could have followed up on that threat. I don't see why it's so hard to believe that something similar could have happened to Serra (or Serra's mother) after Maelys the Monstrous was slain. Yes, the Golden Company was still around, but they may not have known how to find her, or thought she was dead. The point being, there are plenty of scenarios where this sort of plot turn could work out. All it requires is a little imagination.

[Whatever]

He was probably telling the truth I guess (though Tyrion wasn't really in a position to verify it, he couldn't move freely in Pentos for obvious reasons). On the other point, I don't think the Golden Company accepts women and I'm not sure if they would want to "babysit" one.

i don't know... after all the fuss they do about the blackfyre, they wouldn't let one in slavery

Dany had plenty of friends when Grazdan threatened to sell her to the pleasure houses. If he had succeeded in breaking her host and capturing her, I have no doubt that he would and could have followed up on that threat. I don't see why it's so hard to believe that something similar could have happened to Serra (or Serra's mother) after Maelys the Monstrous was slain. Yes, the Golden Company was still around, but they may not have known how to find her, or thought she was dead. The point being, there are plenty of scenarios where this sort of plot turn could work out. All it requires is a little imagination.

that's why it's highly unlikely.

[Dragonfish]

that's why it's highly unlikely.

I honestly don't understand why it is so difficult for you to accept that this is possible. Just because someone is an heir to a throne (or claims to be an heir) does not mean they're immune to being sold to pleasure houses, once they lose their base of support. The same could easily have happened to Dany, as has already been explained numerous times. And I don't see why the Golden Company would necessarily have intervened. They didn't even bother to help out Daemon II Blackfyre, and that was when Bittersteel was still alive and their main purpose was to put a Blackfyre on the throne. Nowadays, the company is mostly composed of exiles and descendants of exiles whose greatest wish is simply to go home. No reason to think they'd bother to lift a finger to help out a descendant of Maelys the Monstrous.

[Kadence]

Yeah, as others have gone over, I don't understand why relatives of Maelys ending up slaves is such a hard thing to envision for you. In Essos it would have been extremely easy for this to happen. Maelys had just lost and he was the Golden Company's captain. The GC were likely in no position to defend his descendants after such a defeat. Also we have no idea if the next captain cared about the female line - Blackheart Toyne probably didn't become captain until much later, and Blackheart would be the one who chose to side with the female line in this scenario.

People really don't emphasize Blackheart's involvement enough when it comes to the Varys/Illyrio plot. It's possible he too would have been a patsy like Connington...but I doubt it. Blackheart supposedly switching the GC's loyalty to the Targs should raise major red flags. He also wouldn't be so eager to believe this was Rhaeghar's son - Jon had hardcore emotional reasons to want to believe, Blackheart did not. The captain of the Blackfyre loyalist Golden Company pledging loyalty to a supposed Targaryen who could well be a total fake is difficult to swallow.

I do believe YG is illyio's son by his beloved wife. that's all. he fooled Joncon and the GC both

But this would make little sense because Illyrio's lack of motive is a huge hole. Illyrio loved Serra madly - he's going to send away her 4 or 5 year old son to be raised by complete strangers? A profit hungry eastern merchant is going to risk his son's love in the extremely dangerous Westerosi game of thrones, when that son won't even know who the hell his father was (and if he found out, would probably resent him greatly for not raising him)? And his method for accomplishing this is some looney fake baby switch scheme? Not to mention that he'd be faknig that the child was heir to a house whose power had been utterly destroyed - not much reason to be optimistic the fake baby switch would gain much advantage even if people actually bought it.

Illyrio doing this plot with their son would stretch suspension of disbelief to its limits. But if you factor in Serra being of the Blackfyre line it falls into place - Serra's family has desperately wanted the throne for a century and he'd be doing this for love of her, giving back to her family what they perceived as their birthright. Plus if Varys was related to Serra he probably talked Illyrio into the baby switch scheme.

I'm most definitely on board with this theory, and think it would be one of the best revelations in the series. Imagine that Varys and Illyrio aren't orchestrating the return of the Targaryens, but the return of the Blackfyres. The level of depth George created with the backstory is astonishing.

I agree that the intricate Blackfyre-Targaryen backstory has been some great work by Martin.

Similarities? Perhaps Aegon really is an Aegon, but not Rhaegar's

It is quite likely that his name is actually Aegon, yes. I think Tyrion's guess at his age was probably roughly correct and that YG might have been born after Rhaeghar's son was killed. I doubt he was named after Aegon IV though. He might have been named Aegon for the sake of the scheme (this is my guess as to what happened). Also Blackfyres are obviously descendants of Aegon the Conqueror and there have probably been a lot of Blackfyres with that name. I don't see anyone naming someone for Aegon IV who people did not respect as king, the name of Aegon IV has no cachet. He was probably named for Aegon the Conqueror, Aegon just being a popular name in their family, or for the sake of the scheme itself.

[Whatever]

I honestly don't understand why it is so difficult for you to accept that this is possible....

because i hate the idea, and that sounds like a deux ex macchina to me. And since there are only 2 books left (well..... :D) i don't think there is time to introduce a new storyline "the return of the blackfyres". I can totally understand why the GC would back Rhaegar's son but i don't think they would let a blackfyre woman in a brothel. Daemon II blackfyre was a captive in the reed keep, which is way more far (and better defended) than a Lyseni whorehouse. Also, i think that if a "self styled princess" was a bedslave we would have heard some of this. Finding out of this in the 6th book would be cheap.

I already have my problems with Aegon the Redundant (i know, i know, the mummer's dragon was introduced in ACOK and so on, but the whole mega-switcheroo subplot is just too much) and i don't want to a blackfyre pretender to the mess.

Ps1: Also, having YG growing as Rhaegar's son doesn't strick me as something the blackfyres would do. I mean, YG thinks he is someone else, a Targ, not a Blackfyre. Judging by the D&E tales, the BF are quite proud of their name, i don't think they would do something like this.

Ps2: Of course, there are no more blackfyres. So, who is left in the plot? Varys and Illyrio only. That GC commander might have been a plotter, but he died. and Homeless Harry definitely wasn't a part of the conspiracy. So, whoever Serra was, the whole plot is a Illyrio-Varys-only conpiracy. No need, story-wise, to include the Blackfyres then. They're dead..

@Kadence

i think YG is as old as Aegon is supposed to be. Whoever he is, he looks quite convinced of being Rhaegar's son and he surely knows (& JonCon does) how old he's supposed to be. Wouldn't look weird to Aegon if he's younger than is age?

Tyrion isn't that good at judging people's age, BTW (which i think could make the Ashara=Lemore theory work)... "How old are you, Snow? Twelve?" anybody?

[LordBloodraven]

I think that Serra and Varys are Blackfyres (on the female line) and Illyrio, a descendant of a Targaryen bastard, Bittersteel or Daemon Blackfyre (via women). I don't have much to support the latter assumption but Illyrio's actions and the level of his implication in "Targ restoration" is too strange. He's a magister of Pentos, rich and with many friends, why would he engage in an action knowing all he could lose? Besides, the description of Illyrio and how fat he is sounds too much like Aegon the Unworthy. Just saying.....

[Ran]

The male line of the Blackfyres is ended. That rather implies descendants of the female line -- daughters of and grand-daughters of Daemon Blackfyre, I'd suppose -- are still around...

An earlier draft of the "lesson" chapter had quite a bit more detail about Maelys the Monstrous and the Blackfyres (for those who have GoO's RPG, some of that information ended up in that book). I wonder why George decided to pull it from this book.

[anon71836]

i really like the theory as well, but i'm wondering why they would bother to say YG is aegon if he is a blackfyre. as shown by robert's rebellion, you don't really need a previous claim to the throne to be on the throne. also, the blackfyre rivalry with the legitimate targs seems like it would make pretending to be a targ kind of distasteful for a new blackfyre heir.

Let's not forget that the Baratheons are Targ descendants, too.

[anon71836]

There's no way it would have been intentional by the Blackfyre family, no chance at all, why would they not want male heirs? Though it's possible this is why the mage wanted him. I've pointed that out myself in many other threads - but I consider it a bit of a stretch, I don't know if Martin really thought about that being the mage's motive. Probably just be a coincidence, although King's Blood Testes Power is a cool notion

This got me thinking (prob. not an original thought given the depth of the ideas that have already been posted): Could Varys be old enough such that it was his blood that was used at Summerhall by Aegon V?

[Dragonfish]

because i hate the idea, and that sounds like a deux ex macchina to me.

I never asked you to accept the entire theory. All I'm saying is that it's possible for one of the last Blackfyres to end up in a pleasure house in Lys. You seem dead set on denying that it's even possible, which strikes me as odd, considering that Dany very nearly ended up in just such a position on a couple occasions.

And since there are only 2 books left (well..... :D) i don't think there is time to introduce a new storyline "the return of the blackfyres". I can totally understand why the GC would back Rhaegar's son but i don't think they would let a blackfyre woman in a brothel. Daemon II blackfyre was a captive in the reed keep, which is way more far (and better defended) than a Lyseni whorehouse.

But the GC didn't bother to help Daemon II Blackfyre with his rebellion even before he was captured. He was the heir to the first Daemon Blackfyre, and they didn't even lift a finger. And that was while Bittersteel was their leader, and their main goal was still to recapture the throne. Now, however, I get the impression that most of the men of the Golden Company just want to go home. So I really don't see why they'd bother helping the last female heir of Maelys the Monstrous. Most of them are probably tired of helping Blackfyres, seeing as how it hasn't done them any good so far.

Also, keep in mind that the books imply there are still Blackfyre descendants from the female line, yet no such descendants appear to be in the GC's camp. So if the GC would be so concerned about protecting Blackfyres, as you claim, then why aren't they out there doing just that, rather than throwing there weight behind a Targaryen?

[Wouter]

Also, keep in mind that the books imply there are still Blackfyre descendants from the female line, yet no such descendants appear to be in the GC's camp. So if the GC would be so concerned about protecting Blackfyres, as you claim, then why aren't they out there doing just that, rather than throwing there weight behind a Targaryen?

That's a good point. It is more or less implied that the female line exists, but no trace of them in the Golden Company, neither women/girls under their protection nor men/boys as squires or members. Except possibly for hidden ones, and then Aegon (and possibly Lemore) is coming to mind.

And Blackfyre girls out there are not under protection of the GC, otherwise.

[jurble]

The male line of the Blackfyres is ended. That rather implies descendants of the female line -- daughters of and grand-daughters of Daemon Blackfyre, I'd suppose -- are still around...

An earlier draft of the "lesson" chapter had quite a bit more detail about Maelys the Monstrous and the Blackfyres (for those who have GoO's RPG, some of that information ended up in that book). I wonder why George decided to pull it from this book.

Probably the same reason he removed the reference to Blackfyre in the Tyrion meets Duck & Haldon chapter - it made things too obvious.

[Kadence]

Probably the same reason he removed the reference to Blackfyre in the Tyrion meets Duck & Haldon chapter - it made things too obvious.

Yes, you are probably correct that this was the reason - Martin didn't want to give this away too early like Jon's parentage, and he knows how the internet allows fans to figure things out quicker. I didn't know about this stuff being edited out but I think at this point with the stuff about edits coming out, most people should be accepting the Blackfyre restoration conspiracy as highly probable. I was already like 85% confident that Aegon was about Blackfyre restoration, now I'm closer to 95% confident :) Funny thing is that most of the time I post all the details about this theory they are ignored and people prefer to discuss completely crackpot notions like Varys working for or against the Others, or working for a constitutional monarchy or something :D

After reading about the chapter changes, the main question to me now is whether Varys was related to Serra. I think it's likely Varys is also a descendant of the line and closely related to Aegon because then every single thing about Varys fits into place. In fact if he's Serra's brother he'd be the real Blackfyre heir himself - but he has no balls so working for his nephew would make more sense.

i don't think there is time to introduce a new storyline "the return of the blackfyres".

These books are like 1000 pages each. A gazillion things were introduced in Game of Thrones alone. Two books is plenty of time for Martin to do this well. Also I'm pretty sure there will be at least three more books in the series anyway.

Also, i think that if a "self styled princess" was a bedslave we would have heard some of this. Finding out of this in the 6th book would be cheap.

There are probably whores and concubines who were members of famous families all over the place, we're not going to here about any of them. This is a non-issue.

I can totally understand why the GC would back Rhaegar's son

Except if Blackheart was going to support a Targ, he would have supported Viserys - not signed on to in the future support some kid who had zero proof of who he was, who everyone believed was dead, and was presented by Varys who has an untrustworthy reputation. The Golden Company supporting Aegon simply does not make any sense, unless Blackheart knew he was the Blackfyre heir.

People are really, really overlooking the role of Blackheart as a member of this conspiracy. It's a huge clue yet no one seems to notice :unsure: If you analyze his actions they hint very powerfully towards Blackfyre restoration. The notion of Blackheart supporting a supposedly dead kid with no proof of identity, who is a member of a now powerless house that is the arch-nemesis of the family your company was loyal to and founded by, just doesn't add up. At this point the Targs were just as irrelevant as the Blackfyres - and if they wanted to support Targs they would have supported Viserys. I don't know how people are glossing over all this stuff. Everything about this hints at Blackfyres.

and i don't want to a blackfyre pretender to the mess.

No one has yet to make any sense of this mess without the Blackfyre pretender idea. It's actually not a mess at all when you view it from a Blackfyre restoration perspective :) Things just fall into place very neatly.

Ps1: Also, having YG growing as Rhaegar's son doesn't strick me as something the blackfyres would do. I mean, YG thinks he is someone else, a Targ, not a Blackfyre. Judging by the D&E tales, the BF are quite proud of their name, i don't think they would do something like this.

Except Aegon is a Mopatis anyway, not a Blackfyre. He's the heir to the line but not a Blackfyre in name. We don't even know if Serra had the last name Blackfyre.

[Kadence]

I think that Serra and Varys are Blackfyres (on the female line) and Illyrio, a descendant of a Targaryen bastard, Bittersteel or Daemon Blackfyre (via women).

I don't think Illyrio is descended from the line himself, Serra being of the line would be enough to explain Illyrio's actions. Although personally I'd think it was cool if he was descended from Aegor Rivers.

Utterly crackpot speculation: would be truly awesome if Mopatis was Valyrian for Bittersteel :D

[Whatever]

1)I never asked you to accept the entire theory. All I'm saying is that it's possible for one of the last Blackfyres to end up in a pleasure house in Lys. You seem dead set on denying that it's even possible, which strikes me as odd, considering that Dany very nearly ended up in just such a position on a couple occasions.

2)But the GC didn't bother to help Daemon II Blackfyre with his rebellion even before he was captured. He was the heir to the first Daemon Blackfyre, and they didn't even lift a finger. And that was while Bittersteel was their leader, and their main goal was still to recapture the throne. Now, however, I get the impression that most of the men of the Golden Company just want to go home. So I really don't see why they'd bother helping the last female heir of Maelys the Monstrous. Most of them are probably tired of helping Blackfyres, seeing as how it hasn't done them any good so far.

3)Also, keep in mind that the books imply there are still Blackfyre descendants from the female line, yet no such descendants appear to be in the GC's camp. So if the GC would be so concerned about protecting Blackfyres, as you claim, then why aren't they out there doing just that, rather than throwing there weight behind a Targaryen?

1)well, dany didn't "very nearly". Only one man threatened her with it, but it didn't happen and i doubt he would have done it if dany had lost. Also, if a blackfyre ended up in a whorehouse i think we'd have heard something by now. (something in a dany's chapter, or tyrion's....)

2)well, not even Bittersteel supported Daemon II. he didn't give him blackfyre, and he was the commander of the GC back then.

3)You're right about the Blackfyres not being with the GC.

You know, before i read Ran's post i didn't realize what "female line" really means. I thouht it meant something like "last grandaughter of Maelys (is this the name?) the Monstrous.

Now i understood "female" line likely means "descendents of Daemon Blackfyre's daughters". Female line doesn't mean "female descendets" but "descendents of a woman", doesn't it? So, there could be a whole family, not just women. More than just one blackfyre around. They're likely able to provide for themselves (nobody would remember that ther's a BF female line if they all were poor and living as beggars) and that's why they're not around the GC anymore. As you said, i don't think the GC is what it once was.. they don't see themselves a House Blackfyre anymore, they're not lead by a descendent of Bittersteel anymore. They only want to fight, and they only hope to go home. So, they're not tied to the BF like they once were.

Now, if the remainining Blackfyres are a family, and not descendents of Maelys the Monstrous, it's unlikely that one of them ended un as a slave (yes, AGAIN). But even if serra did, i think some relative of hers would have tried to buy her to free her.. unless they're all slaves, which is unlikely IMO

Except Aegon is a Mopatis anyway, not a Blackfyre. He's the heir to the line but not a Blackfyre in name. We don't even know if Serra had the last name Blackfyre.

that's a not issue. We know that in westeros when a woman marries below her station her childs take her surname. YG son of a magistro and a blackfyre IS a blackfyre, YG who believes he's Rhaegar's son isn't

also, i can believe the GC didn't support Viserys because he was 1)mad 2)doomed. He never had a real chance to win back the throne

[Wouter]

There are probably whores and concubines who were members of famous families all over the place, we're not going to here about any of them. This is a non-issue.

Lynesse Hightower comes to mind - she is a concubine and the Hightowers are a really famous family. Granted, we did hear about her in book 1.

[Cydal]

I forget where in the text it says this but doesn't it make it clear that there is a female line of Blackfyres still alive and if so---who are they?

Possible Candidates:

Varys -- obviously this is an old theory that varys is more than he seems, but why not, we are ignorant of his hair color because he has none, and also he has been gelded, he says for a magic spell of some sort, but what if it was because he is a blackfyre and that his family had it done to prevent more male heirs from bringing trouble to there family

Aegon -- the blackfyres are really just targs in the end, and they must look similar to the targs in relation to there hair and eyes, so why not Aegon or whoever he is being an heir of the Blackfyres

Aurane Waters -- he looks like a targ and we dont really know much else about this guy, except he is sailing the seas with the iron thrones brand new fleet of dreadnoughts and has no known allegiance after cersei was led off by the faith

serra -- wasnt she mentioned as having targ like features in illyrios speech about her, the hair and the eyes

Aurane Waters is a Velaryon and their's is the blood of Old Valyria

Serra was a prostiture from Lys, Its possible she has no relation to Blackfyres

We just don't know enough or not at all about the Blackfyre descendants to speculate. It's said that there are many still in Lys and other free cities with the Valyrian colouring.