88 replies to this topic

[Gwely Mernans]

I don't understand why the characters are in general so young.  16 is considered 'maturity' in ASOIAF... the average male is not done maturing physically OR mentally by 16.  There are many instances of impossible feats accomplished by CHILDREN in the books.  
Some examples--

The Hound killed a guy when he was 12.  That's one bad ass 12 year old!  Come on, no man is going to lose a physical struggle to a 12 year old.

Jaime Lannister makes Kingsguard at 15.  This is probably the most far fetched thing in the series in terms of age.  Not to mention that he hasn't reached physical maturity, at 15 he has only had maximum 3 or 4 years of serious sword training (ie when he was strong enough to  use an actual sword).  Even a knight of average talent in his late 20s would easily defeat a 15 year old simply due to the fact that he 10yrs+ experience on him.  The disparity is akin to turning on the television and watching NFL football and then watching high school football.

Loras Tyrell is 17.  17 at least is a little more plausible than 15, but still ridiculous.

There are more examples, but I am wondering why GRRM chose to make everyone so young? IMO 10 years should be added to each character.  Robb is 26, Loras is 27, Jaime made KG at 25... it's much more reasonable.

[HiddenTarg No.679]

I agree, GRRM should of added 3 years on to each, arya as an 11 year old assassin

[TrueMetis]

We don't know the circumstances around the Hounds killing at 12 and Jaime's and Loras' family ties had a lot more to do with their entry into the kingsgaurd than their skill. We're told straight up that Aery's selected Jaime to screw over Tywin.

[Azerate]

Fantasy world of westeros is something similiar to medieval europe, back then people started their adult lifes way earlier than now. Partly because of the shorter lifespans in general, partly because of the social system/agreement. If we look at it this way it's not weird at all that they started that young

[Winterfell is Burning]

In Jaime's case, he wasn't selected to the KG for his skill as a swordsman.

[Starblayde]

Winterfell is Burning, on 06 September 2011 - 05:52 PM, said:

In Jaime's case, he wasn't selected to the KG for his skill as a swordsman.

The fact he ended up being one of the most skilled swordsmen in the realm must be a pure co-incidence? Or did that only come about because Ser Arthur Dayne got a hold of him and had him trained properly?

The OP mentions it's like the difference between College Football and NFL, but there are many instances of football/soccer players being fantasticly skilled at 16. Sure they don't have the strength and physical presence, but it's not always about strength.

[DirePenguin]

I think it's very possible consider the food and medical condition in such age. Only the lords and the rich would have good food, commoners were supposed to be tiny, scrawny and die very easily. A simple cut would be enough to kill a big grown man, similar to Drogo's cut.

I even think that the average age of the people are not very long. That's why they have to rush and do everything in such young age. Eddard was only 35...

Edited by DirePenguin, 16 September 2011 - 03:01 AM.

[violet storm]

Given that most men rarely lived beyond 35, I think the ages are justified. If we remember that Shakespeare's Juliet was 13 (and considered almost an old-maid, her mother had her when she was 12!), or Alexande the Great just 20 when he started his major wars (and dead by 33!), when we picture the world in a certain light. I understand the makers of the HBO show though who added 10 years to practically all main characters (with the exception of children). Job and Robb definitely do not look 14, and Ned and Cat - not 35!

[Dyanna]

Think about the church(es). Both the protestant and the Catholic church have rituals for teenagers (~13/14 and ~15/16 respectively IIRC) which nowadays mostly consist of a long ceremony and then lots of good food, many presents and much money for the kids going through them. But they also make them full members of the church, responsible for their own actions etc. In other words, they become adults to the church, and some hundred years ago also to everyone around them - after all, "the church" was more or less equal to "society".

Apart from physical maturity (=the ability to reproduce, not being fully grown) this is the only thing I know of which is marking adulthood, and both happen roughly between 12 and 15.

[Été]

Dyanna, on 19 September 2011 - 01:57 PM, said:

Think about the church(es). Both the protestant and the Catholic church have rituals for teenagers (~13/14 and ~15/16 respectively IIRC) which nowadays mostly consist of a long ceremony and then lots of good food, many presents and much money for the kids going through them. But they also make them full members of the church, responsible for their own actions etc. In other words, they become adults to the church, and some hundred years ago also to everyone around them - after all, "the church" was more or less equal to "society".

Apart from physical maturity (=the ability to reproduce, not being fully grown) this is the only thing I know of which is marking adulthood, and both happen roughly between 12 and 15.

Interesting thought about the religious side of things. Did the church offer confirmation aged 15 in the middle ages then? We did that at 10 in my school...

[HashRouge]

I do think certain characters would perhaps have benefited from being older than they were, principally Robb, Jon, Sansa and Dany, because it is very hard for a modern audience to process the characters being quite as young as they were, especially if we think about what they do over the course of the books. I'm slightly hazy on the exact ages of all the characters beyond Game of Thrones, but I think even adding just 3 or 4 years on in each case would have helped! Dany's whole marriage wouldn't have been quite as weird/ creepy if she'd been 16 instead of 13; ditto Sansa's relationship with the Hound; Jon being selected as Lord Commander would have been more plausible had he been 20 instead of however old he was (was it 16?); and so would Robb being proclaimed King in the North. They would still have been young, just less like children.
I have read somewhere that GRRM has said he wishes he'd made the characters older, but I don't know if that's true or not. Either way, I think HBO made a wise choice. Richard Madden (Robb) and Kit Harrington (Jon) were both born in 1986 so are about 10 years older than their respective characters (does anyone else like the fact that they really are roughly the same age, just like Robb and Jon?); Emilia Clarke (Dany) would appear to be about 23, so also 10 years older than her character; Sophie Turner (Sansa) is by far the youngest at 15, but even she is a few years older than her character is supposed to be in Game of Thrones (I think Sansa is supposed to be 11 when we first meet her).

[Winterfell is Burning]

Starblayde, on 13 September 2011 - 02:20 PM, said:

The fact he ended up being one of the most skilled swordsmen in the realm must be a pure co-incidence? Or did that only come about because Ser Arthur Dayne got a hold of him and had him trained properly?

Barristan said Jaime was a naturally great swordsman, and surely training by Dayne and Barristan himself helped, but the reason he was selected was because he was Tywin's son and heir.

But, yes, they got it right in te show by making them older.

[Belisar]

To me the most frustrating aspect is that this isn't a series that is covering a 10 yr span. There is no time for young characters to age and mature, which means that Bran and Rickon won't ever be fully grown or at least grown enough to come into their own and claim their rights as Starks and/or lead any armies to battle as they  try to ressurect  Winterfell and the Stark name.

[Alexia]

violet storm, on 18 September 2011 - 06:11 PM, said:

If we remember that Shakespeare's Juliet was 13 (and considered almost an old-maid,

Say wahhh!!!

Quote

Parris: But now, my lord, what say you to my suit?

Capulet: But saying o'er what I have said before:
My child is yet a stranger in the world,
She hath not seen the change of fourteen years;
Let two more summers wither in their pride
Ere we may think her ripe to be a bride.

Parris: Younger than she are happy mothers made.

Capulet: And too soon marr'd are those so early made.

The play says, in no uncertain terms, that her father considers her too young to marry for another two years.  In no way, shape, or form is Shakespeare's Juliet considered an old maid!  

Edited by Alexia, 21 September 2011 - 09:51 AM.

[violet storm]

Alexia, on 21 September 2011 - 09:48 AM, said:

Say wahhh!!!

The play says, in no uncertain terms, that her father considers her too young to marry for another two years.  In no way, shape, or form is Shakespeare's Juliet considered an old maid!  

Yet, her mother said that she had her by this time and many girls of her age and social position are already mothers...

LADY CAPULET
Well, think of marriage now; younger than you,
Here in Verona, ladies of esteem,
Are made already mothers: by my count,
I was your mother much upon these years
That you are now a maid. Thus then in brief:
The valiant Paris seeks you for his love.

[violet storm]

Alexia, on 21 September 2011 - 09:48 AM, said:

Say wahhh!!!

The play says, in no uncertain terms, that her father considers her too young to marry for another two years.  In no way, shape, or form is Shakespeare's Juliet considered an old maid!  

Come to think about it, Shakespeare puts Lady Capulet at 26 years old or so! Definitely not how she usually gets casted

Edited by violet storm, 21 September 2011 - 02:24 PM.

[Alexia]

Perhaps that explains Lord Capulet's comment about "too soon marr'd are those so early made", if he married Lady Capulet at a similar age and she was unable to have another child due to the trauma of childbirth on a developing body.    Juliet is their only child, after all.

Nonetheless, Juliet isn't considered an old maid.  Old enough to be married, by some people's lights, but she's got a few years to go before she starts approaching old maidhood.

violet storm, on 21 September 2011 - 02:23 PM, said:

Come to think about it, Shakespeare puts Lady Capulet at 26 years old or so! Definitely not how she usually gets casted

That makes Lady Capulet younger than I am... and I don't much like that!

Edited by Alexia, 21 September 2011 - 02:33 PM.

[Rinso]

As to the youth of the characters... They are young by modern-day terms. During the Middle Ages lifespan in general was much shorter than it is today and the concept of teenage adolescence was more or less nonexistant.

Yes, it's very hard to imagine a 14-15 years old Robb leading armies and winning victories when I think of myself at 15, but the key is to remember that they live in a medieval-like society and world, and a 14-15 years old teenager was probably seen as today's equivalent of an 18-19 years old young man - still young and inexperienced but not a kid. That's why Bran thinks of himself as "almost a man grown" so often when he's like... 10.
Same with the girls - Sansa had her first menstrual blood and a budding woman's figure, so she's not considered a child anymore past ACOK. It may be weird today in the 21st century, but Westeros is not the 21st century Earth. You have to look at these things at their context.

As for the Hound killing his first man at 12... Consider that the Cleganes are truly exceptional physical specimen, naturally bigger and stronger than almost everyone else. So at 12, Sandor was probably stronger than most boys today are at 15-16, and quite probably about as large. It's still a stretch for the imagination, and it may have not been some epic duel, but it's not impossible.

[Sunni]

Rinso, on 22 September 2011 - 06:35 AM, said:

As to the youth of the characters... They are young by modern-day terms. During the Middle Ages lifespan in general was much shorter than it is today and the concept of teenage adolescence was more or less nonexistant. ...

As for the Hound killing his first man at 12... Consider that the Cleganes are truly exceptional physical specimen, naturally bigger and stronger than almost everyone else. So at 12, Sandor was probably stronger than most boys today are at 15-16, and quite probably about as large. It's still a stretch for the imagination, and it may have not been some epic duel, but it's not impossible.

[Sunni]

Arya killed for the first time before she escaped King's Landing.  How old was she?  8? 9? 11?  Younger than the Hound's 12, anyway.  Killing is more a question of hiding your intent and taking someone by surprise. Lady Olenna killed and it wasn't by brute strength.