88 replies to this topic

[di0p]

I think the main problem is you are considering the ages and maturity of the characters in terms of our expectations in this world (and country, for some). Without trying to sound too spacy or preachy, this story is taking place in a fictional world and a fictional society, who is to say that these ages are not completely appropriate in GRRM's world? By all accounts they are, considering no character seems to be fussing about age or exposure to what we would consider graphic or adult interaction. Hell, Bran gets shown his first murder/execution when he is what, 7? We should not be thinking of age in terms of our own society, but just consider the possibility that the age ranges and maturity levels are vastly different in Westeros and Essos.

[mediocre cheese]

violet storm, on 18 September 2011 - 06:11 PM, said:

Given that most men rarely lived beyond 35, I think the ages are justified. If we remember that Shakespeare's Juliet was 13 (and considered almost an old-maid, her mother had her when she was 12!), or Alexande the Great just 20 when he started his major wars (and dead by 33!), when we picture the world in a certain light.

Alexander was considered a boy king, and he wasin his 20s . Martin said Daeron the young dragon is the Westerosi version of alexander and he dies at age 18. Similarly pompey was called the teenage butcher because he was leading armies in his early 20s. By far more common would have been the ages of Caesar, mark antony and themistocles who were all in their late 40s when leading armies. In Westeros by contrast Balon Swann says his father's fighting days are done, because he's an old man well past 40.

Obviously as mentioned above the world of Westeros is fictional, in their world characters may have different standards on age, but its not like they have the same standards as the ancient world, they're much younger.

[little_horn]

uhh.,.. in lots of countries there are still a lot of young children doing the stuff that GRRM's characters do, even in this day and age, from being assassins to prostitutes and soldiers and slaves probably for all we know. Just think about Africa, Colombia, etc.

[the_unburnt]

One thing to keep in mind is that the length of a year is never clearly defined in any of the series.

For us, 1 year is equal to 365 days but maybe 1 year in Westeros is 500 days.   This would bridge the 3 to 4 year age gap were seeing for some of the characters.

[Catastrophe]

I've considered that too, but it runs into problems when you look at the older characters. If a Westeros year is roughly 1.25 times one of our years, that'd make Walder Frey around 115 years old. Very few people live that long in real life, I can't imagine anyone surviving that long in a world with only medieval medicine and technology! Then there's Maester Luwin, who'd be almost 130! As convienient a theory as it is, it just doesn't hold up.

[Ser Lepus]

This is something I posted in another thread:

I´ve heard that, even before the Meerenese Knot and the Five Years Time Skip problem, the first problems came to GRRM because of the amount of magic in the story.

Apparently, he wanted to introduce the story with very few magic at the beginning, and increase it more and more as it progressed; that would have allowed children like Bran and Arya and teenagers like Jon and Dany to be the heroes who defeat the Others and reclaim the throne despite their youth. Then people read the first couple of books, and loved it because it was so realistic, and GRRM started to feei that he had to tone down the magic so as to not disappoint his readers.
But the reduction in magic made it less believable that mere children could defeat such powerful enemies, so he thought of introducing a time skip to make all of them either adults or teenagers...until he realized it would break the rythm of the story and leave too much loose ends unresolved, and would have to introduce a lot of flashbacks, and finally decided not to make the time skip...which drove him to the problem of

Spoiler

how to kick Dany out of Meeren quickly without abandoning her followers to disaster and without making her unbeliavely competent (the Meerenese Knot; Dany could not fix Meeren quickly, and it would have been out of character for her to just abandon them...)

So you see, it all started because he originally wanted his story to be much more magical -a more conventional fantasy book -and decided to change it on the fly...

Edited by Ser Lepus, 07 December 2011 - 04:50 PM.

[Hear Me Roar!]

Well, this subject has been beaten to death, but the truth is the answer is somewhere in the middle. Yes, the characters are too young. They could have benefited from beginning at the ages of the characters in the show and aging throughout the series from there (ie make Bran 10 years old at the start instead of 7).

At the same time, Westeros is based on Medieval society where, as we all know, there was no such thing as "teenager." You were a child, and then you were an adult at 13 or 14 or whatever. Just how it went. Edward the Black Prince led men into battle when he was 15 or 16 if I recall correctly....

[Jon Snow's Bastard]

mediocre cheese, on 25 September 2011 - 10:42 AM, said:

Alexander was considered a boy king, and he wasin his 20s . Martin said Daeron the young dragon is the Westerosi version of alexander and he dies at age 18. Similarly pompey was called the teenage butcher because he was leading armies in his early 20s. By far more common would have been the ages of Caesar, mark antony and themistocles who were all in their late 40s when leading armies. In Westeros by contrast Balon Swann says his father's fighting days are done, because he's an old man well past 40.

Obviously as mentioned above the world of Westeros is fictional, in their world characters may have different standards on age, but its not like they have the same standards as the ancient world, they're much younger.

Well my first thought is that you seem to be using classical figures and not medieval, my second thought is Alexander was regent and leading independent campaigns at 16, Captain of Cavalry by 17, and by all accounts already a man you would want to follow in battle.

[Jon Snow's Bastard]

My biggest problem with the characters age is we will never see rickon come into his own.  He is shaping up to being one quiet shaggy ball of northern rage and death dealing raised in isolation by a loan spearwife (or a some wild clan).  The personality of Shaggy dog just screams that this character would be great in his early teens.

The books needed the 5 year gap.  GRRM should have just accepted that there would be gaps and picked up out of nowhere.  Would it really be any different than all the gaps of backstory that already exist as we pick up a multigenerational sage right in middle? They are really the best part, as we let the coolness of the world in our imagination supply the details behind the stories the author just hints about.  If things couldnt be shown without flashbacks, just dont show them.  Do we really need to see Sansa mature, or would her transformation be more shocking if we just see her embittered 5 years later?  Or go the other way with it, wouldnt it speak volumes about her if we see her after 5 years of littlefinger (or harry the heir) and she still has that gentleness to her personality?  I am just saying we dont need flash backs or the whole story, just the result and a few details from random comments about the past.

But, you cant blame a guy for not writeing your book, especially when his is great (except daenery lately).

Edited by Jon Snow's Bastard, 28 December 2011 - 09:40 PM.

[blasted_saber]

I was actually thinking about this the other day. A conversation about athletes (in particular hockey players) and how they remain in the minor leagues after being drafted because they cant compete physically (for the most part). It got me thinking about how many characters in ASOIF are so young yet prove themselves vs mature soldiers.

Edited by blasted_saber, 28 December 2011 - 09:43 PM.

[DurararaFTW]

Rinso, on 22 September 2011 - 06:35 AM, said:

As to the youth of the characters... They are young by modern-day terms. During the Middle Ages lifespan in general was much shorter than it is today and the concept of teenage adolescence was more or less nonexistant.

Yes, it's very hard to imagine a 14-15 years old Robb leading armies and winning victories when I think of myself at 15, but the key is to remember that they live in a medieval-like society and world, and a 14-15 years old teenager was probably seen as today's equivalent of an 18-19 years old young man - still young and inexperienced but not a kid. That's why Bran thinks of himself as "almost a man grown" so often when he's like... 10.
Same with the girls - Sansa had her first menstrual blood and a budding woman's figure, so she's not considered a child anymore past ACOK. It may be weird today in the 21st century, but Westeros is not the 21st century Earth. You have to look at these things at their context.

Robb wasn't allowed to carry a sword at the start of the book, two months later, before his first actual battle, he was accepted as commanding warleader of half Westerosi continent.

[Ser Lepus]

violet storm, on 18 September 2011 - 06:11 PM, said:

Given that most men rarely lived beyond 35, I think the ages are justified. If we remember that Shakespeare's Juliet was 13 (and considered almost an old-maid, her mother had her when she was 12!), or Alexande the Great just 20 when he started his major wars (and dead by 33!), when we picture the world in a certain light. I understand the makers of the HBO show though who added 10 years to practically all main characters (with the exception of children). Job and Robb definitely do not look 14, and Ned and Cat - not 35!

Actually, the low life expectancy was due to the high death rate of very young children which pushed down the arithmetic average, but once you managed to reach adulthood, you had very good chances of living to celebrate your sixty-five birthday.
During the middle ages people died mostly during their childhood or during their old age, but rarely as young or middle aged adults (just like most animals in nature, as a matter of fact).

Edited by Ser Lepus, 04 January 2012 - 07:39 PM.

[Lord Snowflakes]

A fever could kill. A simple wound could kill. In other words, death comes easily to people in the medieval times. So they tend to rush things up; as soon as girls flowered, they wed and reproduce, lest death snatch them untimely. Boys have to cope up with the girls. So as soon as they reach 12-13 years old, they begin to act maturely. Childhood until 7, teens until 13, then adulthood onwards till one dies.

Barristan Selmy is good enough with his skills to reach the old-age of 60 still a wielding a sword.

[slayer420]

I think it was a big mistake to tell up that joffey was killed in on the new year of 300. So now he is stuck with that amount of time passing.  I hope he starts ageing charcters faster and just says in the next book ricton is now 9,  because we really dont know how much time has passed.  I wouldnt mind it if he started doing this,

[Ladywhiskers]

Alexia, on 21 September 2011 - 09:48 AM, said:

Say wahhh!!!

The play says, in no uncertain terms, that her father considers her too young to marry for another two years.  In no way, shape, or form is Shakespeare's Juliet considered an old maid!  

Thank you, I was going to point that out, too. Paris says "younger than she are happy mothers made," and the father fires right back, "and too soon marred, are those so early made." Nobody thinks Juliet is withering on the vine--she's a bit too young but the family don't want to pass up the chance to have her make such an advantageous match.

Girls in Agot are considered to be of age as soon as they reach menarche, just as in medieval times, but that gives quite a wide range for girls to come of age. Some don't until as late as age 17. I don't think anybody would be considered an old maid before they were 19.

[Cap Ou Pas Cap]

Azerate, on 05 September 2011 - 02:19 AM, said:

Fantasy world of westeros is something similiar to medieval europe, back then people started their adult lifes way earlier than now. Partly because of the shorter lifespans in general, partly because of the social system/agreement. If we look at it this way it's not weird at all that they started that young

If you read about the actual Medieval Europe, you can find that boys were made pages around the age of 7 or 8, squires around the age of 15 or 16 and  "after many long years", "long years" of training were able to aim at knighthood at their early 20s. Their ability to handle half a hundred puonds of armour being significantly improved by then, I imagine.

Maybe it is meant to show that it is not the upbringing, but the paths a person chooses by himself/herself that matter. Each young character is thrown into the midst of things to make what they will of themselves. To build their own character. They see things only adults should see, but still have the ability to change. For better or worse.

[David Selig]

DurararaFTW, on 29 December 2011 - 02:14 AM, said:

Robb wasn't allowed to carry a sword at the start of the book, two months later, before his first actual battle, he was accepted as commanding warleader of half Westerosi continent.

It was six or seven months actually. Plus it's clearly implied that Rodrick was overly cautious with still not giving Robb a real sword at the start.

But yeah, some of the achievements of the characters at young age really stretch plausibility for me. Especially Jaime the uberknight at 15.

[SI Monster]

David Selig, on 17 January 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

It was six or seven months actually. Plus it's clearly implied that Rodrick was overly cautious with still not giving Robb a real sword at the start.

But yeah, some of the achievements of the characters at young age really stretch plausibility for me. Especially Jaime the uberknight at 15.

I think it makes sense, it makes him a pordigy. Then again, he wasn't really an uberknight (nice usage of the Buffy lingo), he was just good for his age similar to Selmy the Bold.
And I agree with the caution of Sir Rodrick since Joffery was younger than Robb and training with real steel swords and trap shooting live rabbits with a crossbow. Consider this, we are talking about an age without XBox live or an agricultural school year so kids have to fill that time with something. A high born lord's kids would have access to maesters (scholors) and masters at arms (drill instructors) to give them what would amount to a college education in half the time it would take for a modern teen to learn. I think it's compleatly acceptable for a fifteen year old to be a warmaster or knight if properly instructed... not a very good though.

[Ladywhiskers]

Gwely Mernans, on 28 August 2011 - 11:33 AM, said:

I don't understand why the characters are in general so young.  16 is considered 'maturity' in ASOIAF... the average male is not done maturing physically OR mentally by 16.  There are many instances of impossible feats accomplished by CHILDREN in the books.  
Some examples--

The Hound killed a guy when he was 12.  That's one bad ass 12 year old!  Come on, no man is going to lose a physical struggle to a 12 year old.

Jaime Lannister makes Kingsguard at 15.  This is probably the most far fetched thing in the series in terms of age.  Not to mention that he hasn't reached physical maturity, at 15 he has only had maximum 3 or 4 years of serious sword training (ie when he was strong enough to  use an actual sword).  Even a knight of average talent in his late 20s would easily defeat a 15 year old simply due to the fact that he 10yrs+ experience on him.  The disparity is akin to turning on the television and watching NFL football and then watching high school football.

Loras Tyrell is 17.  17 at least is a little more plausible than 15, but still ridiculous.

There are more examples, but I am wondering why GRRM chose to make everyone so young? IMO 10 years should be added to each character.  Robb is 26, Loras is 27, Jaime made KG at 25... it's much more reasonable.

No, because at those ages they're over the hill.  Look at our modern military and at our athletes. We don't look for 25-year-olds to enlist in the marines. We already consider them over the hill at that age. And pro ball teams do not recruit 25-year-old players. Jaime would be like that kid who's drafted into the MBA during summer camp when he's 15. The top talent generally are spotted that young, and have already been training all their lives, and I think this is an intentional parallel. Companies barely look at high school and college athletes anymore. By 30, athletes are turning into coaches, soldiers into officers.

Jaime and Loras are superstars, so it would actually be ridiculous if their careers started too far into their twenties. Also, Jaime is supposed to be too young to really know what he's doing, when he commits to taking the white cloak--young enough so that we can sympathize with him for regretting it.  Loras is meant to be somewhat more typical.

GRRM has another couple of reasons for the youth thing. One, it's historically accurate. Medieval lives were shorter, and people often had to take up adult responsibilities as young as 10 years old. Girls used to be considered women once they bled, (13-17,) and boys were men when they began to shave and their voices changed--(generally 12-17.)

As for the Hound being a bad-ass 12 year old, yes, that's the point. But he's not just any 12-year-old. The Hound and his brother are around 8 feet tall. Even at 12 they probably out-sized the average man. They're talented, like Jaime, but they grew up much tougher and more violent, living entirely by their physical prowess, like those kids you see carrying baseball bats and running up the sides of buildings on YouTube.

This is an honor society where disputes are settled by contests of arms. A man's intellectual maturity doesn't really come into it unless he's a maester. What these people value, is the ability to win a fight. So 16 is old enough.

[Tyler Snow]

I too am taken aback when I re-read the books and see the ages of many of the characters. It doesn't last long though as usually in my mind I just tack on three or four years so its more believeable with my modern inclinations. However, if you just look at Olympic athletes, its not so far fetched. Many compete when they are 16-17 years old and are considered the greatest athletes in the world. Many are considered old as soon as they are beyond 22.

It just comes down to a frame of reference and there is no doubt in medieval times marriages and death in battle where happening throughout the teenage years. HBO got it exactly right upping the age of the characters and I think they did a fine job at that.