402 replies to this topic

[The Lost Lord]

There are 6 remaining POV characters from Book 1. In Books 1-3, all were extremely sympathetic characters (except Sansa in Book 1). But in Books 4-5 they've all taken darker turns and seem headed for very morally ambiguous territory:

• Dany embraces "fire and blood" and rejects the compromises she has made for peace
  
• Jon becomes more and more comfortable with power, locking up the Karstark uncle without cause and thinking of beheading him, before forming a wildling army to kick Ramsay's ass. (EDIT: The reason I included these is not because Jon's choices are evil but because he is becoming increasingly comfortable with the use of power to do whatever he wants to do, and he is casting aside his doubts and ignoring constraints on his authority like his vows. In these situations it might be justified but in later situations it is the recipe for a tyrant.)
  
• Tyrion is filled with very dark thoughts about revenge on his sister. He approvingly thinks Dany should've poisoned the wells because that's what his father would've done. Then, after a brief stint as a slave, he starts to view slaves with contempt, thinking they've all chosen to be that way. He cares about Penny but has contempt for her slave mentality, and he ends his ADWD arc by slapping her and calling her a naive fool (which she is, but still...).
  
• Bran embraces his mind control powers. He repeatedly wargs Hodor even though he knows it's wrong. His new mentor is Bloodraven, who was feared throughout the 7 Kingdoms.
  
• Sansa embraces her power to lie. Her new mentor is the ruthless grasper who caused the current war for his own gain.
  
• Arya embraces her power to kill. She has progressed from killing for self-preservation, to killing a supposed lawbreaker, to eating shepherds in wolf form and thinking it's "So beautiful." She is assigned to kill a man, spends a while observing him, and decides she hates him. Her new mentors are part of a death cult.

I've always wondered how Martin would handle the inevitable "and then everyone teams up to fight the Others" part of the story while maintaining the morally ambiguous flavor. Have we been set up to see all of our favorite characters abandon their concern for innocent life and do terrible things as a means toward defeating the Others? Is Martin's main theme simply that "power corrupts"?

Edited by The Lost Lord, 28 August 2011 - 04:15 PM.

[Smallfolkperson]

I think GRRM's main theme may be "The world is full of grey" more than "power corrupts." All of these characters, except Tyrion, were very young in aGoT - and none of them had been responsible for major decisions. Now, most of them are in positions of power, forced to make difficult choices, so of course they will be far more ambiguous than they were as kids. All of them are doing what they think is right/necessary - except for Arya, but she is with the only people who have treated her well since her father died.

[Fearsome Fred]

I would say your weakest example is Sansa.  Littlefinger kidnapped her, and you are holding her guilty by association.  Lets wait and see if she cooperates with, or rebels against, his plot to eliminate Sweetrobin.

[Fearsome Fred]

Smallfolkperson, on 28 August 2011 - 02:25 PM, said:

I think GRRM's main theme may be "The world is full of grey" [....]

If that's all it is, then:  BORING BORING BORING BORING.  Or worse.  If all he wants to do is tear down Good while reveling in Evil, then should we not throw his books in the garbage right now?

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Interesting post.

I'd say for most of these characters there's a good reason they are becoming morally grey.  And that reason is because most of these characters are children who are fast becoming young adults.  Some faster than others.  

We all experience this transition.  In aSoIaF, it's far more extreme, but surely you remember some point in your development when you realized that life is not a song?  That the world was not fair, and that some will take what they want, regardless of what harm they do?  Coming to terms with that is part of growing up.   And we all come out changed from this, to varying degrees.

Now...  I think that your Jon/Dany/Sansa/Arya/Brans of the world will ultimately be good people.  But they will not be lily-white.  I don't think that Dany will just set Mereen on fire and fly away on her dragon, leaving all her people to burn (rather disturbingly, a lot of people on this board think this would be the correct course of action).  I don't think that Arya will truly be a faceless man - I think she will remember who she is - much as Dany does in her last chapter.  I think that Sansa will exact righteous vengeance upon Littlefinger, bringing justice as only a Stark of Winterfell can.  And poor Bran...  he is still so innocent and sweet, despite all.  Yes, all are greyer now.  But all are more fully realized human beings as well.

Edited by MyDogIsNamedDanerys, 28 August 2011 - 02:32 PM.

[Dragons Dancing]

GRRM says repeatedly that he likes to write about the human heart in conflict with itself. When times are good there are fewer opportunities for one to have to make difficult morally challenging decisions and it is easier to maintain moral righteousness. It is in serious difficulty that people are challenged to maintain their moral beliefs and it is in this conflict that morally ambiguos decisions occur.

[Fearsome Fred]

MyDogIsNamedDanerys, on 28 August 2011 - 02:31 PM, said:

I'd say for most of these characters there's a good reason they are becoming morally grey.

If their reasons are good, then their actions are not "morally grey".

"Morally grey", if it means anything, means they have done bad things without justification or "good reason".

[Fearsome Fred]

Dragons Dancing, on 28 August 2011 - 02:34 PM, said:

GRRM says repeatedly that he likes to write about the human heart in conflict with itself.

Yes.  I sympathize with this outlook.   Like GRRM, I think the war between Good and Evil in the human heart is more interesting than a slugfest between the perfect hero and the perfect villain.  However, I still want Good to emerge victorious.  It remains to be seen whether GRRM is on the side of Good, or whether he merely wants to revel in moral despair so he can justify Evil.

Edited by Fearsome Fred, 28 August 2011 - 02:40 PM.

[Errant Bard]

I think one of ASOIAF's tenet is that nobody is all white or all black. Humans, depending on circumstances, can have their traits express themselves as flaws, and more acutely with more power. The Stark kids are still better people than most. In real history, they would not be half as sympathetic.

On the other hand, Tyrion has always been a jerk.


This being said, case by case:

• I don't see Jon abandon his concern for innocent life and do terrible things. For one thing, he's dead, (yeah, I kid, he'll be back), for another the reason he's dead is that he actually tried to save innocent people. If he was a cold bastard like Tywin or Roose, he'd be still alive.
  
• Bran... never had much of a hangup about innocent lives. He was just neutral, watching people die. So, terrible things? Maybe, it's not like he has any resolve not to do them. His idea to fuck Meera while in Hodor is already pretty creepy that way.
  
• Sansa is merely growing up a little and shedding a bit of her naiveté. Lying? Why not? When she kills Sweetrobin in cold blood, we'll see, but for the moment she's quite OK.
  
• Dany... is not embracing "fire and blood". It seems to me to be only fan speculation. She sacrificed about everything for peace in a foreign city. Cries for people she does not know, locks up her "children" to protect the populace, fights slavers, and so on. Maybe she's not successful, but it's not for lack of trying.
  
• Arya... yeah.
  
• Tyrion, on top of his jerkass attitude, had multiple people killed or killed them himself, because they were inconvenient in his wielding of power and/or pleasures. His prime motivation is not justice, it's not the greater good, it's not noble sentiments, it's self satisfaction. If he posted on Internet, he'd be a troll. He's always been rotten, so no change, and damn right he will do horrible things, only he will not do it to defeat Others, he will do it to make himself look good, or for his self satisfaction. Chances are, he will want the world to burn and work for the Others, though.

Fearsome Fred, on 28 August 2011 - 02:39 PM, said:

It remains to be seen whether GRRM is on the side of Good, or whether he merely wants to revel in moral despair so he can justify Evil.

Are you serious?

Edited by Errant Bard, 28 August 2011 - 02:51 PM.

[Fredwin]

It's not possible to be pure white or pure black. Even the greatest and most noble people to ever walk our planet might seem morally ambiguous if we could see the world from their PoV. PoV storytelling gives Martin a very powerful ability.

Gray is a huge area though. Surely you still have lesser and greater evils.

There are plenty of honorable souls in the book: Ned, Maester Aemon, Sam, etc. Even Ned has his flaws though, whether he slept with a common woman, or lied about Jon's birthparents.. it's still can be considered in the gray area.

[Whatever]

well, IMO Dany refusing to compromise was stupid, no evil, (all that fuss about "my husband has to wash my feet first? Come.On) but hey, YMMV

[King_In_The_North]

Fearsome Fred, on 28 August 2011 - 02:26 PM, said:

I would say your weakest example is Sansa.  Littlefinger kidnapped her, and you are holding her guilty by association.  Lets wait and see if she cooperates with, or rebels against, his plot to eliminate Sweetrobin.

No, but pre-LF Sansa was innocent (despite all the things she's seen) and good-hearted, and it seems like LF might corrupt that. I don't want him to, because I like good characters (only in ASOIAF, though), but it still remains to be seen.

[Fearsome Fred]

Errant Bard, on 28 August 2011 - 02:41 PM, said:

Are you serious?

Absolutely.  Some of GRRM's biggest fans are moral nihilists who think that moral nihilism the "whole point" of the story.  While I am personally inclined to read things differently, I am by no means 100% sure which of us is guilty of projecting their own philosophy onto GRRM's text.

BTW, I agree with you about Tyrion being a villain.  But he has a huge fanbase who regard him as the true hero of the story.  GRRM has made statements that, superficially at least, seem to give support to this crowd.

Edited by Fearsome Fred, 28 August 2011 - 03:00 PM.

[Tammy]

The Lost Lord, on 28 August 2011 - 02:06 PM, said:

There are 6 remaining POV characters from Book 1. In Books 1-3, all were extremely sympathetic characters (except Sansa in Book 1). But in Books 4-5 they've all taken darker turns and seem headed for very morally ambiguous territory:

• Dany embraces "fire and blood" and rejects the compromises she has made for peace
  
• Jon becomes more and more comfortable with power, locking up the Karstark uncle without cause and thinking of beheading him, before forming a wildling army to kick Ramsay's ass.
  
• Tyrion is filled with very dark thoughts about revenge on his sister. He approvingly thinks Dany should've poisoned the wells because that's what his father would've done. Then, after a brief stint as a slave, he starts to view slaves with contempt, thinking they've all chosen to be that way. He cares about Penny but has contempt for her slave mentality, and he ends his ADWD arc by slapping her and calling her a naive fool (which she is, but still...).
  
• Bran embraces his mind control powers. He repeatedly wargs Hodor even though he knows it's wrong. His new mentor is Bloodraven, who was feared throughout the 7 Kingdoms.
  
• Sansa embraces her power to lie. Her new mentor is the ruthless grasper who caused the current war for his own gain.
  
• Arya embraces her power to kill. She has progressed from killing for self-preservation, to killing a supposed lawbreaker, to eating shepherds in wolf form and thinking it's "So beautiful." She is assigned to kill a man, spends a while observing him, and decides she hates him. Her new mentors are part of a death cult.

I've always wondered how Martin would handle the inevitable "and then everyone teams up to fight the Others" part of the story while maintaining the morally ambiguous flavor. Have we been set up to see all of our favorite characters abandon their concern for innocent life and do terrible things as a means toward defeating the Others? Is Martin's main theme simply that "power corrupts"?

Jon didn't lick up Karstark without cause.  In fact, he gave him several very good reasons for why he was locked up and offered him a way to get out.  Yeah, he briefly thought of taking his head, but that would have been more for personal and vengeful reasons and he tells himself that he couldn't do it because it would betray his vows, which implies his taking him prisoner did not.  Sure, he's not all light and goodness, but you can't be a commander without being willing to make the tough choices.  As we saw with Dany, you can't want your society to be all good and innocent without doing what is necessary for good to win out in the end.

Bran does disturb me with his constant warging into Hodor, especially since we know that it scares him when he does it.

I don't know that Arya necessarily embraces her power to kill either.  She spends so much time watching  him and finding things she hates about him so that she can justify it to herself or be ok with the deed she has to do.  Arya's POV is definitely going a bit darker, but she never started out with a totally light POV anyway.  I'm hoping that in the end she finds some peace.

[The Lost Lord]

MyDogIsNamedDanerys, on 28 August 2011 - 02:31 PM, said:

Now...  I think that your Jon/Dany/Sansa/Arya/Brans of the world will ultimately be good people.  But they will not be lily-white.  I don't think that Dany will just set Mereen on fire and fly away on her dragon, leaving all her people to burn (rather disturbingly, a lot of people on this board think this would be the correct course of action).  I don't think that Arya will truly be a faceless man - I think she will remember who she is - much as Dany does in her last chapter.  I think that Sansa will exact righteous vengeance upon Littlefinger, bringing justice as only a Stark of Winterfell can.  And poor Bran...  he is still so innocent and sweet, despite all.  Yes, all are greyer now.  But all are more fully realized human beings as well.

Yes, that last bit is why I love the most recent books so much. It is possible we are headed where you suggest, but I am not so sure, mainly because of Martin's views on power, and the fact that all six characters seem destined for powerful positions, either political or magical. As others have stated, there are many shades of gray, and I admit that "evil" was mostly an attention-grabbing headline. But once you obtain power, how easy is it to stick to your original ideals?

Fearsome Fred, on 28 August 2011 - 02:26 PM, said:

I would say your weakest example is Sansa.  Littlefinger kidnapped her, and you are holding her guilty by association.  Lets wait and see if she cooperates with, or rebels against, his plot to eliminate Sweetrobin.

Yes, much will depend on her reaction to that plan, which we unfortunately didn't get to see. But I would suggest re-reading Sansa's first AFFC chapter, which is all about embracing lies, rationalizing them to herself, and shutting out the screams of Marillion.

Fearsome Fred, on 28 August 2011 - 02:29 PM, said:

If all he wants to do is tear down Good while reveling in Evil, then should we not throw his books in the garbage right now?

Surely they will not be moustache-twirling villains. But GRRM has said "good people don't make good leaders" many, many times. Saving humanity from the Others is "good," but what will it cost?

Errant Bard, on 28 August 2011 - 02:41 PM, said:

I don't see Jon abandon his concern for innocent life and do terrible things. For one thing, he's dead, (yeah, I kid, he'll be back), for another the reason he's dead is that he actually tried to save innocent people. If he was a cold bastard like Tywin or Roose, he'd be still alive...

Not saying Jon will become the next Tywin. But I think Martin in ADWD is clearly setting him up to make a play for power -- probably first as king of the wildlings and remaining Northmen, and then perhaps for the throne once he learns of his parentage. In his own mind he only wants power to beat the Others, but he will start to view himself as an indispensable leader who should be in charge (in another thread we called it a Caesar arc). What will he do when someone else wants to be in charge but he thinks he'd do a better job?

Errant Bard, on 28 August 2011 - 02:41 PM, said:

Dany... is not embracing "fire and blood". It seems to me to be only fan speculation. She sacrificed about everything for peace in a foreign city. Cries for people she does not know, locks up her "children" to protect the populace, fights slavers, and so on. Maybe she's not successful, but it's not for lack of trying.

This has been litigated in other threads but in her final chapter, Dany regrets her compromises in Meereen, forgets the name of the dead girl Drogon killed, tells herself she'll have no children only dragons, tells herself "Dragons plant no trees," and climactically thinks of the phrase "fire and blood."

Tammy, on 28 August 2011 - 02:54 PM, said:

Jon didn't lick up Karstark without cause.  In fact, he gave him several very good reasons for why he was locked up and offered him a way to get out.  Yeah, he briefly thought of taking his head, but that would have been more for personal and vengeful reasons and he tells himself that he couldn't do it because it would betray his vows, which implies his taking him prisoner did not.  

I read this totally differently. Locking up Northmen and marrying off their relatives to wildlings egregiously oversteps his authority as Lord Commander. It is an action that a King of the North would do. And on beheading, here is the crucial paragraph:

Quote

I should make his head a wedding gift for Lady Alys and her Magnar, Jon thought, but dare not take the risk. The Night’s Watch took no part in the quarrels of the realm; some would say he had already given Stannis too much help. Behead this fool, and they will claim I am killing northmen to give their lands to wildlings. Release him, and he will do his best to rip apart all I’ve done with Lady Alys and the Magnar. Jon wondered what his father would do, how his uncle might deal with this. But Eddard Stark was dead, Benjen Stark lost in the frozen wilds beyond the Wall. You know nothing, Jon Snow.

Note that Jon won't behead him only because of what "some would say" and "they will claim" and "he will do." He doesn't make a serious attempt to engage with his vows, only briefly wondering what Ned would do before continuing to do whatever he thinks is practically necessary. His actions with giving Stannis a battle plan, Melisandre/Mance, and Ramsay at the end follow the same pattern -- he wonders briefly if his vows prohibit these actions, and then he does them anyway.

Edited by The Lost Lord, 28 August 2011 - 03:03 PM.

[tozka]

Fearsome Fred, on 28 August 2011 - 02:36 PM, said:

If their reasons are good, then their actions are not "morally grey".

There is always a good reason for doing the things we do - I steal because we are poor we don't have to food to feed each other, I steal because I wanted to buy a porsche to my girlfriend, I steal because the sky is blue. There are some reasons that are better than other but we can always find some "good" reason to justify the bad things we do. But a lie is a lie, stealing is stealing and calling it something else is fooling yourself, it's normal response to a human though, imagine the guilt we have to live with, that will destroy us inside most likely, if we didn't try to justify all the bad things we do in our lives. And god knows people are imperfect creatures and we do a lot of bad, even the best of us.

[HodorSaysHodor]

Fearsome Fred, on 28 August 2011 - 02:39 PM, said:

Yes.  I sympathize with this outlook.   Like GRRM, I think the war between Good and Evil in the human heart is more interesting than a slugfest between the perfect hero and the perfect villain.  However, I still want Good to emerge victorious.  It remains to be seen whether GRRM is on the side of Good, or whether he merely wants to revel in moral despair so he can justify Evil.

I don't see all of the main POV's going in the direction of "evil". How can you consider Bran as being "evil" because he's warged into Hodor a few times, one being to save their lives from wights? Theon is another character who has pretty much done a 180. Even more than Theon... is Jaime. His character has changed immensely, and he's starting to question his previous actions as well as his father's counsel. There are many shades of grey going on with the characters, and I don't think it's as simple as who's good/evil.

[Whatever]

Errant Bard, on 28 August 2011 - 02:41 PM, said:

[*]Tyrion, on top of his jerkass attitude, had multiple people killed or killed them himself, because they were inconvenient in his wielding of power and/or pleasures. His prime motivation is not justice, it's not the greater good, it's not noble sentiments, it's self satisfaction. If he posted on Internet, he'd be a troll. He's always been rotten, so no change, and damn right he will do horrible things, only he will not do it to defeat Others, he will do it to make himself look good, or for his self satisfaction. Chances are, he will want the world to burn and work for the Others, though.
[/list]

lol, this is great.


EDIT
but i don't think bran's thoughts about hodor and meera are that disgusting. he's a crippled boy, after all...

Edited by Whatever, 28 August 2011 - 03:04 PM.

[Errant Bard]

Fearsome Fred, on 28 August 2011 - 02:53 PM, said:

Absolutely.  Some of GRRM's biggest fans are moral nihilists who think that moral nihilism the "whole point" of the story.  While I am personally inclined to read things differently, I am by no means 100% sure which of us is guilty of projecting their own philosophy onto GRRM's text.

Right, but I meant to ask if you were serious in your black and white worldview, and your interpretation of what make a work "good" and what makes on "evil".

I guess you are. Wow.

[Wouter]

The Lost Lord, on 28 August 2011 - 02:06 PM, said:

[*]Dany embraces "fire and blood" and rejects the compromises she has made for peace
[*]Jon becomes more and more comfortable with power, locking up the Karstark uncle without cause and thinking of beheading him, before forming a wildling army to kick Ramsay's ass.
[*]Tyrion is filled with very dark thoughts about revenge on his sister. He approvingly thinks Dany should've poisoned the wells because that's what his father would've done. Then, after a brief stint as a slave, he starts to view slaves with contempt, thinking they've all chosen to be that way. He cares about Penny but has contempt for her slave mentality, and he ends his ADWD arc by slapping her and calling her a naive fool (which she is, but still...).
[*]Bran embraces his mind control powers. He repeatedly wargs Hodor even though he knows it's wrong. His new mentor is Bloodraven, who was feared throughout the 7 Kingdoms.
[*]Sansa embraces her power to lie. Her new mentor is the ruthless grasper who caused the current war for his own gain.
[*]Arya embraces her power to kill. She has progressed from killing for self-preservation, to killing a supposed lawbreaker, to eating shepherds in wolf form and thinking it's "So beautiful." She is assigned to kill a man, spends a while observing him, and decides she hates him. Her new mentors are part of a death cult.

By case:
-I don't think Dany rejects compromises full stop; she does seem to reject compromises that are forced on her because she is in a weak position (by not controlling the dragon and not retaliating in kind to her enemies). The compromises that Dany agreed to arguably weren't that good things in and of themselves anyway. She was forced to re-open the fighting pits for example; and we saw what kind of things happen there, including Penny and Tyrion who were supposed to be devoured by lions for the amusement of the crowd. If Dany rejects this kind of compromise, then that is not all bad even though it may lead to "fire and blood" one way or another.

-Jon does a pretty dark thing with Gilly and her son, that's the example I would have given. The Karstark uncle? He was planning to usurp the rightful Karstark heir (who would die in captivity by agreement with the Boltons), force his cousin to marry and then probably kill her. He also chased the girl with a troop of dogs (sounds right up the alley of Ramsay - natural allies) and he was planning to betray Stannis, whom he professed allegiance to, for Ramsay. Jon deserves applause for what he did to him. Attempting to form a wildling army to kick Ramsay's ass? A statue for him from me. That's not morally dark, that's heroism.

-Tyrion does a lot of dark things in the books (also the earlier ones), but after his capture by Jorah he actually improves. For all his words and thoughts, when it comes down to it he saves Penny and Jorah and I don't view those as actions to stroke his ego. He is attempting to help, in his rude way. He is also planning to join anti-slavery crusader Dany (and he is well aware of that aspect of her) so he is hardly looking down on slaves. He just is determined not to be one.

-Bran is still a child, though what he is doing with Hodor is wrong. He can still be corrected though, if someone finds out. Bloodraven has a bad reputation, which so far seems mostly undeserved based on what we know of the guy. Bran also seems destined to be maybe the most deciding factor in the war against the Others, thanks to Bloodraven and co.

-Sansa lies sometimes - who doesn't? She is even forced to lie because she has to hide her identity and because LF has all the power over her (and because she is right that sometimes the lie is simply practical and even kinder than the truth). As long as she doesn't go along with knowingly poisoning her cousin, there is nothing bad happening her yet. Sansa obviously doesn't know the lion's share of what LF did, otherwise he would instantly appear very high on her list of enemies (ahead of Cersei, even).

-Arya: her evolution has been troubling since ACOK already. With the wolf dreams, I'm not quite sure how much control Arya has there and if she truly realises what her wolf is doing. When she dreams, it seems she is in the wolf but Nymeria is in control, not her. As for the murder on the broker, very troubling that she is being brainwashed to be an assassin. That Arya had to convince herself it was a "bad man" before she could kill him shows that she still wants to be picky about who she kills though, she has to be able to justify it to herself. That she can do this so easily in this case is a problem, but she isn't yet at the level where the faceless men want to have her.

I also think that both Arya and Sansa will reclaim their identities, probably already by the end of TWOW and much of this slippery slope business may be avoided after that. The morally questionable situations for them tend to be created by LF and the Faceless, respectively, so once they get out from their influence things should improve quite drastically.

In short, I don't quite see the evolution you are seeing, overall.