Question on Name of the Wind

[Nnorb]

Uh what fantasy cliches has he deconstructed?

Most novels, even fantasy novels, have some kind of central character(s) with consistent characterization. Maybe some kind of flaw to make the reader empathize with them. Rothfuss deconstructs this wonderfully with the character of Kvothe; people quail when his eyes flash with badassery, complete strangers break down in tears when he starts playing music. His only 'flaw' is that he's [Littlefinger]soooooooo gooooood[/Littlefinger] that all the small-minded assholes of the world immediately band together to destroy him.

Protip for the OP: You read Rothfuss for the way he writes. tTe way the guy puts one word in front of another is an absolute joy. You do not read it for the plot or (god forbid) characters. So spoilers aren't really going to affect a great deal. Pretty much the opposite of GRRM really.

[Lady Nerevar]

I think you meant to put that in the Goodkind thread.

(In other words, I completely disagree)

Off the top of my head, the biggest deconstruction is of the main character as the hero who does epic deeds, saves the world, gets the girl. The Kvothe of myth is that person, but the real Kvothe is a teenager who does stuff that isn't even all that remarkable within the universe. It the frame story, he isn't even that. Even something like SoIaF has objectively uber people who can very well be called heroes (or antiheroes) - I'd say that Rothfuss has 'regular' people, occasionally with a good education, who build up unfairly high reputations.

Although, honestly, I wouldn't say that he loves deconstructing cliches. It is hardly a major theme in his writing (as least to me).

[Selmy]

I think you meant to put that in the Goodkind thread.

(In other words, I completely disagree)

Off the top of my head, the biggest deconstruction is of the main character as the hero who does epic deeds, saves the world, gets the girl. The Kvothe of myth is that person, but the real Kvothe is a teenager who does stuff that isn't even all that remarkable within the universe. It the frame story, he isn't even that. Even something like SoIaF has objectively uber people who can very well be called heroes (or antiheroes) - I'd say that Rothfuss has 'regular' people, occasionally with a good education, who build up unfairly high reputations.

Although, honestly, I wouldn't say that he loves deconstructing cliches. It is hardly a major theme in his writing (as least to me).

Yeah the regular Kvothe doesn't do that much...

He's just....

One of the best musicians around

Super intelligent

Can do magic

Slept with a goddess

Saved a town

First person ever to infiltrate and learn super warrior shit

Etc

Part of the point seems to not be Kvothe vs the mythos, but that he is the mythos and by retelling it he strengthens his connection to it.

I've enjoyed the series so far for what it is - a fun read. But lets not make it more than what it is.

[Slick Mongoose]

I wouldn't describe Rothfuss as especially deconstructionist either (although there have been hints that this might become the case in the next book).

However, my favourite "deconstruction" (if you could call it that) in the books is the way Kvothe angrily complains when anyone says the Edema Ruh are all thieves, but the only Ruh we actually know (Kvothe) steals stuff all the time.

[Lady Nerevar]

Yeah the regular Kvothe doesn't do that much...

He's just....

One of the best musicians around - one of. Not the cry-your-eyes-out-when-he-plays uber best. Imre is a major artistic centre, and we see plenty of good musicians besides Kvothe.

Super intelligent - intelligent, yes, but I'd not give him super. He practices and had a head start, but admits that he isn't very good at some things (math comes to mind). For all the book smarts he has, he doesn't have a lot of common sense.

Can do magic - he is one of many pupils in a university dedicated to teaching people to do magic. While he is good at it, he is not the best there is.

Slept with a goddess - I'll give you this one, though I'd amend it to "survived sleeping with a lusty otherworldy being." Anyone can sleep with her, few get away. More of a testament to his cleverness than to his attractiveness/desirability.

Saved a town - caused it to need saving in the first place, and by the time he got there significant damage had been done.

First person ever to infiltrate and learn super warrior shit - I'm not sure he is the first person ever, but even if he is, he didn't become a superior warrior. He became an OK swordsman with an unusual technique. He cheated his way through his final exam, and still gets his ass kicked by a 10 year old girl.

Edited in my responses into your spoiler.

[Lord Reek]

I (OP) am still reading but as soon as I finish Name of the Wind I'm going to look at your spoilers and respond to your posts ;).

[Selmy]

Edited in my responses into your spoiler.

Yeah I guess my point is though, you add all that together and you've got yourself one hell of a mary sue.

[SkynJay]

Yeah I guess my point is though, you add all that together and you've got yourself one hell of a mary sue.

But as I stated in another post, a Mary Sue that you know from the first chapters is going to be one. It's part of his introduction. Why keep reading if you don't want to read about a Mary Sue?

[Lady Nerevar]

Yeah I guess my point is though, you add all that together and you've got yourself one hell of a mary sue.

Mary Sue seems to be the default heading for any character that doesn't have some hugely obvious flaw or who's life doesn't constantly suck. I suppose I agree that Kvothe has some Sue-ish elements (namely, doing you-know-what with you-know-who and getting away with it, as well as his young age), but I'd hardly call him a total Mary Sue.

There was this girl in my highschool. She was a great artist, valedictorian, and did sports. She was also pretty good looking, and was certainly popular. Most of the same things could be said for the entire top 10% of my class, adding or subtracting a quality here and there. I hesitate to call anyone who is intelligent, popular, and/or talented a Mary Sue by default. A Mary Sue, by definition, has to have no faults (Kvothe is arrogant, vindictive, often self-centered, and has a distinct disregard for authority), be admired by everyone (Kvothe has a close circle of friends, but otherwise doesn't get much admiration), and have unusual skillsets and/or be better than everyone else (Imre and the University are full of musicians and magicians, some/many of whom are as good as or better than Kvothe, and he isn't a master of all skills).

But as I stated in another post, a Mary Sue that you know from the first chapters is going to be one. It's part of his introduction. Why keep reading if you don't want to read about a Mary Sue?

All that said, I basically agree with this. Whether you think he is a Mary Sue or not, the sort of story you're reading is clear from the get go, and if you want something like SoIaF (where characters are constantly and majorly screwed over and nothing ever works out), you might be reading the wrong sort of book.

[Contrarius]

Kvothe is certainly a Gary Stu in many ways -- and, no, Gary Stu/Mary Sue characters do NOT have to be perfect. In fact, there's a long and very interesting article on TVtropes.com about Mary Sue characters, if anyone is interested in learning about them.

I don't care for Gary Stu characters, and it's one of the things that annoys me when reading Rothfuss. HOWEVER, I also find it very interesting that Kvothe is such a Gary Stu and STILL he manages to screw up so many things.

I do think that Rothfuss is a deconstructionist, at least in some ways. He has the brilliant and talented and skilled and handsome and wonderful hero -- who STILL screws everything up and ends up as a broken-down inkeeper. He has the great legend of his hero -- and shows us the seamy undersides of the legend. He shows us the other legends of other heros -- and shows us at least some of the ways in which those legends have been perverted from the truth. He shows us the arcane warrior training our hero goes through -- and then he shows us just how little good that training does the hero when he needs it. And so on and so forth.

I get really irritated at Kvothe's Gary Stu aspects, but there's still a ton of things to admire about these books.

[Nnorb]

Kvothe isn't a shitty character just because he's a totally awesome, heroic genius who can make women cream themselves with a glance. You can spin a great story around such a character, Anasurimbor Kellhus from the Prince of Nothing series springs to mind. The problem with Kvothe is that he cheats, which is to say, he doesn't interact with the world in a legitimate way. You can take the Kvothe from the beginning of Name of the Wind, put him at the end of Wise Man's Fear, and lo-and-behold, he's exactly the same character.

The most egregious example is...

Kvothe's time as a street urchin. I have no idea why this was in the novel, other than to give him an appropriately tragic backstory. Because at the end of his hard years living hand to mouth on the streets of shitsville, he literally 'snaps out of it' and waltzes into the university with pathetic ease. No PTSD from watching his parents and friends butchered, no trust issues from getting his head kicked in on a regular basis, no social awkwardness from avoiding human contact, he's not even out of practice with his lute after going years without even seeing one.

See what I mean? You can't have a character study where the central character doesn't grow or change throughout the story. It defeats the entire purpose. This is done a little better in The Wise Man's Fear, but only in regards to the skills Kvothe gains. Oh, now I'm a master Chemist! Oh, now I'm a ninja! Oh, now I'm a master of political intrigue! Oh, now I'm a master swordsman! Oh, now I'm a master of sex! And don't give me crap about the framing device, Kvothe clearly isn't Kaisar Soze, he picks up a entirely unique language in less than half an hour, Bast quails when his eyes flash with badassery. We're supposed to take the crap he says completely at face value.

Don't get me wrong, I quite like the books, in the same way I can like a B-movie filled with plot holes. If you turn off your brain and read the Kingkiller Chronicle like the dumb, suppurating bubble that you are, it's highly enjoyable..

[Knight Of Laughing Tree]

Kvothe isn't a shitty character just because he's a totally awesome, heroic genius who can make women cream themselves with a glance. You can spin a great story around such a character, Anasurimbor Kellhus from the Prince of Nothing series springs to mind. The problem with Kvothe is that he cheats, which is to say, he doesn't interact with the world in a legitimate way. You can take the Kvothe from the beginning of Name of the Wind, put him at the end of Wise Man's Fear, and lo-and-behold, he's exactly the same character.

The most egregious example is...

Kvothe's time as a street urchin. I have no idea why this was in the novel, other than to give him an appropriately tragic backstory. Because at the end of his hard years living hand to mouth on the streets of shitsville, he literally 'snaps out of it' and waltzes into the university with pathetic ease. No PTSD from watching his parents and friends butchered, no trust issues from getting his head kicked in on a regular basis, no social awkwardness from avoiding human contact, he's not even out of practice with his lute after going years without even seeing one.

See what I mean? You can't have a character study where the central character doesn't grow or change throughout the story. It defeats the entire purpose. This is done a little better in The Wise Man's Fear, but only in regards to the skills Kvothe gains. Oh, now I'm a master Chemist! Oh, now I'm a ninja! Oh, now I'm a master of political intrigue! Oh, now I'm a master swordsman! Oh, now I'm a master of sex! And don't give me crap about the framing device, Kvothe clearly isn't Kaisar Soze, he picks up a entirely unique language in less than half an hour, Bast quails when his eyes flash with badassery. We're supposed to take the crap he says completely at face value.

Don't get me wrong, I quite like the books, in the same way I can like a B-movie filled with plot holes. If you turn off your brain and read the Kingkiller Chronicle like the dumb, suppurating bubble that you are, it's highly enjoyable..

i see what your saying, and it makes sense, however i think that most of this is because he is recalling the story and telling it rather than it happening while were reading it. he is the teller of his own story, and we know that he isn't telling it completely true because in the first book skarpi tells him that even though all of his story really happened it wasn't all true, because complete truth simply confuses people.

we know that he isn't the same man in the story that he is in present time, simply look at the bartender vs the boy. they aren't the same we just aren't seeing the changes as easily as we should be.

[noshowjones]

This book drives me a little nuts. First, the main character's name. Second, if he is so set on hiding his identity, why is he hanging what one would assume is a well-known sword in the common room of the inn... even if it isn't well-known, there is nothing like hanging a sword in the common room of your inn to tell people you are more than a simple innkeeper. I think this book contains a lot of fantasy cliches. I am having a hard time making it through the first volume.

[Spaceman Hobbes]

This book drives me a little nuts. First, the main character's name. Second, if he is so set on hiding his identity, why is he hanging what one would assume is a well-known sword in the common room of the inn... even if it isn't well-known, there is nothing like hanging a sword in the common room of your inn to tell people you are more than a simple innkeeper. I think this book contains a lot of fantasy cliches. I am having a hard time making it through the first volume.

The grip isn't correct. The description of Kvothe's sword in the second book and Folly are different. Hell even the Smith's boy catches that Folly isn't anything like Kvothe's sword from the stories.

ETA: I'll digest and respond to the whether or not rothfuss is a deconstructionist stuff later.

[Contrarius]

ou can take the Kvothe from the beginning of Name of the Wind, put him at the end of Wise Man's Fear, and lo-and-behold, he's exactly the same character.

Gotta strongly disagree with you on this one. Kote is not at all the same character as the 8 year old Kvothe at the start of the book.

The most egregious example is...

Kvothe's time as a street urchin.

Nonono, you're missing the point of that section.

When Kvothe's parents are killed, he DOES suffer from PTSD/fugue state symptoms. As he says himself, part of his brain isn't functioning. He isn't himself -- and, if you do a search through that sequence, you'll see that his name isn't used AT ALL -- not even once -- during that part of the book. Literally, he isn't quite Kvothe. He remains in that state until he hears Lanre's story from Skarpi. Skarpi speaks his name, and Kvothe re-awakens. This is very similar to the episode where Kvothe goes into a fugue state after speaking the name of the wind, and Elodin has to speak his true name in order to bring him back to himself.

I had a lot of trouble with this section myself, until I did a reread and took part in a long discussion over on sffworld.

See what I mean? You can't have a character study where the central character doesn't grow or change throughout the story.

But he does.

You can see him getting less self-confident, as during his stay with the Adem. And the whole of WMF shows quite a few instances where he is NOT good at something. And he's certainly learning more remorse for his actions, as is shown by his reaction to killing the soldiers and then the bandits.

We're supposed to take the crap he says completely at face value.

Oh no, that's not true at all. Throughout the book we are shown instances where we KNOW Kote/Kvothe is embellishing stories or making things up altogether. We should therefore know to NOT take anything he says at face value. He's an incredibly unreliable narrator.

[Tears of Lys]

Yeah, if you read the story superficially, then you'll come to the conclusion he's a Gary Stu (or whatever that stupid name is.)

As for Kvothe's not being affected by his past,

Most of the sneaky, below-board stuff Kvothe pulls is directly due to the harsh life he lived on the streets as he was growing up. His oh-so-sensitive and prickly pride, which gets him into tons of trouble, is a result of his utter poverty.

It's only after distance and time creates an objectivity and some healing that Kvothe can acknowledge that for years after his troop's massacre he was operating on instinct alone, barely surviving. How is that not PTSD?

The Kingkiller Chronicles is a series that I've added to my small, select list of stories that I enjoy rereading, just because they are so nuanced. I love books that you get something new out of every time you read them, and this series certainly qualifies.

ETA: F**k, I can't do spoilers! It's not really a spoiler anyway, IMO.

[Contrarius]

Arrrrggggg, the posting feature here is screwed up today. I've been trying to say --

The first time I read NOTW, I gave it 3 stars on goodreads -- and I spent a fair amount of time bitching about the problems I had with the book. But I suspected I was missing something, so I went back and read it again. After my reread, I gave it 4 stars -- and I appreciated the entire book much more than the first time around. Now, after also reading WMF, I'm afraid I may end up having to give the whole series 5 stars -- depending on how the last book turns out.

IMHO these are books that reward you in direct proportion to the attention you put into them. If you skim over them like a pulp romance, you'll only see the superficial pulpiness. But if you take the time to pay attention and THINK, you'll get to see some of the many layers under the surface.

[noshowjones]

The grip isn't correct. The description of Kvothe's sword in the second book and Folly are different. Hell even the Smith's boy catches that Folly isn't anything like Kvothe's sword from the stories. ETA: I'll digest and respond to the whether or not rothfuss is a deconstructionist stuff later.

Yeah, but if he was trying to maintain a low profile, why hang a sword in his inn?

[Knight Of Laughing Tree]

Yeah, but if he was trying to maintain a low profile, why hang a sword in his inn?

well thats obvious, he says it in almost was soon as he hangs it up. it was a whim and his greatest successes have always been from acting on impulse

[Contrarius]

Yeah, but if he was trying to maintain a low profile, why hang a sword in his inn?

Well, the name on the sword should give you a clue. "Folly". He is still arrogant, but he is also aware that his arrogance gets him into trouble. Also, he is coming to the point where he wishes to die, so some of his self-preservation is slipping.