Question on Name of the Wind

[Knight Of Laughing Tree]

Well, the name on the sword should give you a clue. "Folly". He is still arrogant, but he is also aware that his arrogance gets him into trouble. Also, he is coming to the point where he wishes to die, so some of his self-preservation is slipping.

i know how that feels, it don't feel good. it's like feeling as old as the world while still being very young. i can relate to the guy.

[Brandon Stark]

Mary Sue characters are the result of poor writing and self-insertion.I think what we have in Rothfuss' Kvothe is definitely a play on the idea of the uberhero, rather than a lazy example of one. The central premise of Kvothe in hiding and eying the end of his days hints at a tragic fall fueled by the pride with which he conquers all the relatively trivial challenges we've seen him face to this point. He's clearly arrogant to the point of thinking himself beyond the reach of both mortal and supernatural penalties, and on top of it all he obviously omits and likely changes portions of the story to suit his purpose.

I think any reading that results in thinking he's a simple or limited character is focusing too much on superficial plot elements within the telling of his tales and not enough on the overall story of Kvothe dictating his story and the 'present,' state of his life.

[Nnorb]

When Kvothe's parents are killed, he DOES suffer from PTSD/fugue state symptoms. As he says himself, part of his brain isn't functioning. He isn't himself -- and, if you do a search through that sequence, you'll see that his name isn't used AT ALL -- not even once -- during that part of the book. Literally, he isn't quite Kvothe. He remains in that state until he hears Lanre's story from Skarpi. Skarpi speaks his name, and Kvothe re-awakens. This is very similar to the episode where Kvothe goes into a fugue state after speaking the name of the wind, and Elodin has to speak his true name in order to bring him back to himself.

And there you have it. When Kvothe isn't being profoundly awesome in every way then he's literally "Not Kvothe." I couldn't have said it better.

But he does (change)

You can see him getting less self-confident, as during his stay with the Adem. And the whole of WMF shows quite a few instances where he is NOT good at something. And he's certainly learning more remorse for his actions, as is shown by his reaction to killing the soldiers and then the bandits.

It probably says a lot that my beefs are mostly with Name of the Wind, like I said, WMF does a lot of things better. Still, the fact that an incidence where Kvothe is [shock]NOT good at something is noteworthy speaks for itself.

And Kvothe's time fucking all the Adem and moping over dead mooks doesn't change him in the slightest. There's still the same precocious genius, shiteating arrogance, everything we've come to know and love. He's just has like three of four more awesome special moves now.

Kvothe uses Heart of Stone... It's super effective! Bandits have fainted!

Kvothe uses Wind in the Willows! (whatever) It's super effective! Ninjas are amazed!

Kvothe uses Hundred Palm Flower... It's super effective! Random Chick is pregnant!

Oh no, that's not true at all. Throughout the book we are shown instances where we KNOW Kote/Kvothe is embellishing stories or making things up altogether. We should therefore know to NOT take anything he says at face value. He's an incredibly unreliable narrator.

Kote is not an unreliable narrator, Kote is a literary device allowing us to see the Awesome! adventures of Awesome! Kvothe while maintaining a shred of credibility. It's got more in common with the narrator of the Princess Bride than the Usual Suspects. The only evidence that Kote is unreliable comes from his occasional asides of, "Oh, it's just a story, and so some parts might be vague and abstracted... But here's 300 pages of impossibly detailed minutae about my life in magic high school. Anyone else remember that one time when they were really strapped for cash? Well I do, every last god damn one of them."

We know Kote is:

a) A super genius (learns Chronicler's language)

B) Has a perfect memory (Bast attests to this several times)

c) Magic (yep, I'll quote you the passage if you want)

d) Has a mysterious magic sword (foppery I believe it's called)

e) Has a mysterious magic treasure chest (zomg mystery!!)

f) Is still an heroic sword fighter (that passage where he beats up the spider demons was really, really stupid)

So where is he unreliable? It's perfectly reasonable to assume that someone as awesome as Kote could do all the awesome Kvothe things. We hve no reason to believe that he's lying, and if he is then the scale of the deception is completely ludicrous.

[Nnorb]

I'd say there's a valid comparison to be made between Rothfuss and Goodkind. Both think they're writing about IMPORTANT HUMAN THEMES, when in fact they write campy shlock. And both are wildly overrated.

[Contrarius]

No no no, a thousand times no. You're being incredibly unfair to the books.

It probably says a lot that my beefs are mostly with Name of the Wind, like I said, WMF does a lot of things better. Still, the fact that an incidence where Kvothe is [shock]NOT good at something is noteworthy speaks for itself.

There are quite a few such incidences in WMF, and I don't see that they are any more "noteworthy" than other incidents in the book. We are definitely getting a more rounded picture of Kvothe in WMF, as he grows and changes.

And Kvothe's time fucking all the Adem

Two is hardly "all".

and moping over dead mooks doesn't change him in the slightest.

Of course it does.

There's still the same precocious genius, shiteating arrogance, everything we've come to know and love.

He *is* arrogant. That's one of his defining characteristics throughout, and it gets him into lots of trouble. But being arrogant doesn't mean that he is unchanging.

He's just has like three of four more awesome special moves now.

Nonono.

He is NOT good at the Adem fighting techniques. He isn't even able to reach their first level -- and when the bandits attack him in the inn, he can't even beat them at hand-to-hand. And as we see several times, even one of their ten year old girls is able to beat him.

And jeez, he's growing up and learning more and more. Of COURSE he's more powerful now than he was when he was 8 years old.

Kvothe uses Hundred Palm Flower... It's super effective! Random Chick is pregnant!

Whointhehell got pregnant??

Cmon, now. If you don't like the books, that's fine. But don't go around just making stuff up.

Kote is not an unreliable narrator, Kote is a literary device allowing us to see the Awesome! adventures of Awesome! Kvothe while maintaining a shred of credibility. It's got more in common with the narrator of the Princess Bride than the Usual Suspects. The only evidence that Kote is unreliable comes from his occasional asides of, "Oh, it's just a story, and so some parts might be vague and abstracted...

Baloney.

Kvothe tells us many many times that he's a liar. He also tells us many times where he has changed or invented stories that he told to others about his supposed adventures. He tells us flat out that he has taken an active role in shaping the legends that have risen up about him. Even Bast tells him he's lying at one point. We have every reason to believe that he is unreliable.

[Lady Nerevar]

I'd say there's a valid comparison to be made between Rothfuss and Goodkind. Both think they're writing about IMPORTANT HUMAN THEMES, when in fact they write campy shlock. And both are wildly overrated.

I'll ignore the whole campy schlock thing, since there's obviously no convincing you, but where the hell does Rothfuss claim to be writing important human themes? :shocked: You can think the book is terrible if you want, but you can't make random shit up about its author.

*sniff sniff*

Trollbait!

Oh gods, I fed him, didn't I?!

[Curethan]

I'd say there's a valid comparison to be made between Rothfuss and Goodkind. Both think they're writing about IMPORTANT HUMAN THEMES, when in fact they write campy shlock. And both are wildly overrated.

*sniff sniff*

Trollbait!

[Nnorb]

I'm completely serious! :(

The recommendations for Name of the Wind made it seem like the second coming of literary Christ, instead I got GRIMDARK HARRY POTTER.

I fled to the internet, hoping to find some respite from the deluge of turgid, self-important shit... and found everyone fellating this Rothfuss guy! OK I don't know the man, so comparing him to Goodkind is no doubt a hyperbole of Godwinesque proportions. Still, point stands, he writes very prettily about a godawfuly lame subject. The Kingkiller Chronicle reads like bad fanfiction transcribed by a literary genius.

[Contrarius]

I fled to the internet, hoping to find some respite from the deluge of turgid, self-important shit... and found everyone fellating this Rothfuss guy!

That's really funny -- considering that, over on the sffworld board, I keep getting accused of *hating* Rothfuss. :D

The Kingkiller Chronicles are not perfect by a long shot. However, I have found in general that the people who hate the books are the same people who haven't paid attention to the books. As I mentioned before, these are the sorts of books that repay close attention.

[Curethan]

Nnorb. Stop waving that hyperbole around, someone will get hurt.

Rothfuss writes very prettily, as you say, and that is what elevates him to the best seller lists.

People like that, and why not? If Dan Brown wrote like him I would read that too.

The rest is fiction, it's not represented as anything else. No one claims it will challenge your perspective or illuminate mysteries of the soul.

It's like you're trying to convince us tomato sauce is poison because you don't like it on your cornflakes.

I don't know why you let your expectations be raised so high in the first place.

[Nnorb]

Really Curethan, you've stooped to the Transformers defence?

If you recall...

Don't get me wrong, I quite like the books, in the same way I can like a B-movie filled with plot holes. If you turn off your brain and read the Kingkiller Chronicle like the dumb, suppurating bubble that you are, it's highly enjoyable.

[Contrarius]

You know, there's a fascinating and very detailed discussion of these books over on the Tor.com site. You could learn a lot about the books, and perhaps open your eyes a bit more to their depth, if you'd take the time to look at that discussion.

It starts here:

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2011/04/rothfuss-reread-the-name-of-the-wind-part-1-the-cut-flower-sound

[Curethan]

Really Curethan, you've stooped to the Transformers defence?

If you recall...

Not defending squat. I agree with your first appraisal but from there on (in this thread) you're just hammering nails with a cannon.

You like the book but its turgid shit wah wah its the same as terry goodkind wah wah unbelievable fantasy wah wah main character never shits wah wah.

Fair enough. Go write a twelve page review and I will care less. And you will still sound like a troll.

[Seli]

I'm completely serious! :(

The recommendations for Name of the Wind made it seem like the second coming of literary Christ, instead I got GRIMDARK HARRY POTTER.

Have you actually read the Harry Potter books, or seen the films? So far the Rowling books are probably darker than Pat's.

If you need to compare it to other books an extended Earthsea -with room for a version of the story behind the legends- is probably closer to a truth.

I fled to the internet, hoping to find some respite from the deluge of turgid, self-important shit... and found everyone fellating this Rothfuss guy! OK I don't know the man, so comparing him to Goodkind is no doubt a hyperbole of Godwinesque proportions. Still, point stands, he writes very prettily about a godawfuly lame subject. The Kingkiller Chronicle reads like bad fanfiction transcribed by a literary genius.

New to the internet, aren't you? :P

[Screaming Turkey Reborn]

I don't understand all the praise about Rothfuss' prose. It seemed unremarkable to me.

[Horza]

It is pretty nice in parts. Especially when it's not Kvothe talking about himself. Maybe it will eventually be enough to get me to read WMF.

But not today.

[Contrarius]

I don't understand all the praise about Rothfuss' prose. It seemed unremarkable to me.

IMHO it has ups and downs. On the one hand, he uses a LOT of cliched phrases (e.g. I wanted it so bad I could taste it, ass over teakettle, etc.) -- which I originally thought was lazy writing, but then decided it might just be a reflection of the way people talk informally when they're telling a story. But OTOH Rothfuss does come up with some wonderful passages. You can see some of them here:

http://blog.patrickrothfuss.com/2011/05/favorite-quotes/

My own favorite quote from NOTW is not particularly poetic, but it tickles me every time I think of it:

"It felt exactly like someone had hit me in the head with a church."

[Happy Ent]

I fled to the internet, hoping to find some respite from the deluge of turgid, self-important shit... and found everyone fellating this Rothfuss guy!

Not everyone. The original Westeros Rothfuss thread is at http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/17669-the-name-of-the-wind-thread/page__st__130 , read my bafflement towards the positive reception from post #134 onwards. I remain flabbergasted. And there are plenty of other readers on this forum who don’t get Rothfuss.

I just don’t feel like barging into other people’s threads and tell them they’re wrong, in particular because I didn’t read the 2nd book. All the other Rothfuss-detracters are just as polite as me (we are morally superior people in that respect). As these things progress, Rothfuss threads become increasingly uncritical, and you can get the false impression that everybody on the board is a Rothfuss fan.

Similarly, you could be led to believe that people on this board all like R. Scott Bakker. They don’t.

[AverageFinger]

Not to ramble on too much about things people have already covered but the actual plot events of Kvothe's learning and growing power and revenge are just a backdrop for his characterization. Patrick Rothfuss takes that cliche epic fantasy hero and breaks him down, showing the true, human side of him beyond his own legend. Reading along as Kvothe tells the story its all about what made him who he is and why his fame, power, and mythical/legendary aspects are really just not all they're cracked up to be

[Contrarius]

Not everyone. The original Westeros Rothfuss thread is at http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/17669-the-name-of-the-wind-thread/page__st__130 , read my bafflement towards the positive reception from post #134 onwards. I remain flabbergasted.

Your post reflects some of the concerns I've had with the books, as well. I doubt that I can talk you into it, but I do find that I appreciate NOTW much more after a re-read. The detail work and its more "meta" aspects have greatly increased my regard for it.