Black Amethyst Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 This is carrying on from what was discussed at the end of 2: Wouldn't it be totally cheesy if the situation came full circle and all we got from them was some scene of Sansa kissing the Hound? I half wonder because there seems to be so much weight to it, and it's not even weight we are giving to the scene as readers, but Sansa herself. If that is literally their last action together I will puke in my mouth. Especially if he dies. Sandor deserves more than that, IMO. (even if I'm a shipper) What I mean is like the kiss being presented as some magical healing mechanism for Sandor. "Saved by a kiss" type crap. That would be so cliche, considering just how shattered the guy is. I think a part of that BWB night was that she wanted, maybe subconsciously at least, to kiss him. We know she felt compassion for him and had made comments like she wished he could quiet his rage. I think she changed events to suit what she wanted and give herself some agency, I guess is the word used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinso Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 Personally, I think that if they ever get any sort of closure, it won't be anything sugarcoated or even that romantically naive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexia Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 I want to see Sansa save him in some sort of way. Maybe he'll get arrested by the Vale lords and she can intervene. But if they get some closure, I think it would be pretty lousy to just get a real kiss out of it. I agree with Rinso. Besides, all Sansa's romantic illusions are getting smashed so it wouldn't really make sense within the context of her story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinso Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 Yes. The dynamic between them is much more than simple Beauty and the Beast-like fluff. It's not so much about kisses or even love in general, as it is about strongly conflicting worldviews that somewhat change them and create subconscious attraction between them. With that in mind, it would be totally awesome if Sansa saves Sandor in any sort of way. Talk about reversal of the roles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fournaridis Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 I love the Hound. The fact that you guys talk as if he's still alive (for a fact) is a reassuring comfort to me. I hope he's still out there, somewhere....even if he is just digging graves.Is the death of his sister related to Gregor? Is that a widely accepted belief, or just baseless speculation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LOBROD Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 My first post on the forum!! have spent the summer reading and studying the asoiaf books with more interest and intensity than I i ever did with any subject in college.I would like to see a convergence of Sansas' growing up and into a mature understanding of herself_ Littlefingers various plots reaching crisis point_ and the return and capture of Sandor on his was to "save" Sansa.would be brill if Sansa was able to outmaneuver Littlefinger while rescuing and escaping with Sandor. If Sansa was then to take the lead *nudge, nudge* :leer: :leer: i don't think that would be trite at all, more lik a meeting of equals and not schoolgirl nonsense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlespider Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 Is the death of his sister related to Gregor? Is that a widely accepted belief, or just baseless speculation?This is the implication, from Ned's chapter, at least. Many of us think that this sister's death explains a lot of his hatred of Greg, as well as his protective instincts towards the Stark girls. Agreed with what's been said above -- it's certainly about a lot more than just a kiss that might have been. Keeping my fingers crossed that Sansa will save his ass this time around, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starbird Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 Littlespider: The third, he's dying and has just finished a head long plunge to rock bottom. I mean he's just a shattered man. He's realizing this at the same time that it strikes him that Arya doesn't find him worthy of mercy, and that his dying doesn't mean jack to anyone else in the world. It's gutting to read that part.Yeah, that's pretty freaking harsh when a 9 year old can't even muster any sympathy for you, especially after she bound your wound and had your back in an inn fight. Her coldness is kind of surprising, given that she's concentrating on finding her "pack" and gets upset when Gendry goes his own thing, etc. You'd think she'd want to hang around with one of the most feared swords in Westeros a little longer, even if he is on the lam now. I think that comment about her mother and the axe can be chalked up to her age, though. There was no way he could have saved Catelyn. They just didn't get there in time. The axe thing, I can kind of understand. Littlespider: I have two more points before I sign off for the night: he mentions during his last speech to Arya "I took the song, she didn't give it." Has he been trying to convince himself all along that she sang willingly for him? LIke, not quite a modified memory, but sorta going in that direction. But he can't delude himself about it.I would say no. He knew damn well she didn't give him the song. He stuck the point of his dagger into her throat and told her to sing for her little life. For someone so concerned with being honest, I would find it strange that he would lie to himself. He might have tried but I don't think he would have been able to fool himself into thinking she sang because she wanted to. Littlespider: And lastly, Sansa. She remembers the "kiss," not the crying. So she substitutes an emotionally vulnerable, intimate moment (I'm still astounded at that instinctual reaction -- who could ever claim that this girl does not have profound empathy and kindness for other human beings?) with a different kind of intimacy. There's obviously a lot bundled into that mismemory, but this seems to be yet another layer.Crying's pretty intimate. She thought he wanted to kiss her (hence the closing of her eyes) but she's described as "wanting it to be over." Unless I'm mistaken, this is as close as she's gotten to a real kiss at that point. Joff never kissed her, right? Littledragon raises the excellent point about Sansa focusing on her snow castle, rather than LF's kiss, wrt Lysa's death. I think this instance and the one above differ for one very important reason: her own self-esteem. Kissing the Hound earns her cool points with the Tyrells, or so she imagines. Also, she wants the kiss after the fact. IIRC, she even refers to him as the Hound in her thoughts when wondering what the Tyrells would think. Not Sandor Clegane, regular guy. But the Hound, badass. Reputation, baby. Kissing LF makes her complicit in her aunt's death, even though she's really an innocent party. No one would be impressed by or envious of her kissing LF so she omits it from her thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fournaridis Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 I always saw the "I took the song, she didn't give" not as the Hound deluding himself - but, as the Hound thinking, KNOWING he would have her sing for him willingly, one of these days.And, he didn't wait. He blew it and took it, instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinso Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 Is the death of his sister related to Gregor? Is that a widely accepted belief, or just baseless speculation?It's impossible to say with 100 % certainty since we haven't seen what happened from first hand, but it's an easy conclusion to make. I'd say it's a widely accepted speculation. As for the song, didn't he at one point bragged to Arya that Sansa sang for him? And then, when he was dying and feverish, he admitted the truth. That's how I recall it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexia Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 I would say no. He knew damn well she didn't give him the song. He stuck the point of his dagger into her throat and told her to sing for her little life. For someone so concerned with being honest, I would find it strange that he would lie to himself. He might have tried but I don't think he would have been able to fool himself into thinking she sang because she wanted to.I think he really wanted her to give him a song though. He wanted her to care about him. And he went in and took it, and tried to concentrate on the getting of it (Sansa Stark sang me a song!) but ultimately it just ate him up inside that nobody loved him, and that he took that meaningful sign of affection or whatever he perceived it as from from Sansa. He got it but it didn't mean anything, because she didn't give it. Her first kiss was the imaginary one, unless you count Dontos' sloppy cheek kisses. I believe Tyrion got the second, at the wedding, and Joffrey the third, at the wedding reception. Yes. The dynamic between them is much more than simple Beauty and the Beast-like fluff. It's not so much about kisses or even love in general, as it is about strongly conflicting worldviews that somewhat change them and create subconscious attraction between them.Agree -- and not only this, but the Hound is a grown man and not a teenaged girl. He's not going to be satisfied with kisses. And Sansa's thoughts of him are growing much more sexual. So having their story end with a romantic kiss would not be consistent with this guy's characterization OR with Sansa's story arc. If they meet again, either nothing happens or it goes all the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinso Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 The more realistic option would be "nothing happens", but that's why God created fan-fics... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexia Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 The more realistic option would be "nothing happens", but that's why God created fan-fics...Yes, but it wasn't realistic that Catelyn met Tyrion in that inn (he traveled at the speed of light while she examined every bit of fauna and flora she came across on the way up...) so that is why God created creative license... :) And something happening would fit nicely into Sansa's story arc, and make for good storytelling, so my fingers remain crossed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinso Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 I didn't mean unrealistic in that way. I meant it as in "GRRM probably won't do something so obvious and sugarcoated." Not that I wouldn't enjoy it, but the guy can be kinda cruel, y'know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexia Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 I didn't mean unrealistic in that way. I meant it as in "GRRM probably won't do something so obvious and sugarcoated." Not that I wouldn't enjoy it, but the guy can be kinda cruel, y'know...Oh, I don't know. He'll do it but in some twisted sort of way, not sugarcoated. Actually, he writes such disgusting sex scenes for characters that I'm not sure I want him to write them one, but whatever happens I am sure it will scar me for life. :ack: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinso Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 Yes, the said scenes are kinda creepy, aren't they... Considering we're speaking of the same mind that hatched the idea of Cersei and Jaime having sex on top of their dead son's coffin while she was menstruating... I dunno, you still keep your fingers crossed for some canon San-San lovin'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexia Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 Could we get a fade to black, like he did for Dany? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinso Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 Of course not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan Delgado Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 Could we get a fade to black, like he did for Dany?Much as I love SanSan I'd prefer this as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlespider Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 I think he really wanted her to give him a song though. He wanted her to care about him. And he went in and took it, and tried to concentrate on the getting of it (Sansa Stark sang me a song!) but ultimately it just ate him up inside that nobody loved him, and that he took that meaningful sign of affection or whatever he perceived it as from from Sansa. He got it but it didn't mean anything, because she didn't give it.This is exactly how I read it. At least from what he says to Arya, it seems like he's trying to convince himself that she sang willingly for him, or would have under other circumstances. Now, as to their reunion, no, just a kiss would be lame. And frankly, just awesome hot sex would be lame as well. I know, I know. I commit sacrilege. The whole shtick of their relationship is this crackling, tense emotional/psychological connection. It's hot because it's fraught with contradiction and is built off of their clashing ideologies, and off of the fact that they're both deeply fucked up people. So the real satisfaction will be in seeing this aspect of it re-emerge, and how this dynamic changes. They've also got a lot of shit to talk out before they get down and dirty. This may be slightly off topic, so slap me down if I run the risk of drawing down the wrath of the mods, but are there other reunions in books/movies that could get at this kind of complexity? Or reunions that are sorta supposed to be romantic but the simplistic romantic shtick gets replaced by something more interesting? Cause this is where I'd like to see George go with this, if he does go the romance route. I submit for our example the reunion of Lancelot and Guinevere when he rescues her from Meleagant, the version following Malory (or T. H. White, if you will*). Lancelot explodes into the castle where Guinevere is waiting, and the reader's all "Yeah! Big kiss! This will be awesome!" but instead Guinevere's all "Calm the fuck down, I'm fine." And he's PISSED. At HER. (and we are a little, too) He's mad because they killed his favorite horse, and he had to ride in a cart, and here's his queen, who's been abducted, and he's just ridden to rescue her, and here she is is trying to calm him down. It's the most anti-climactic and unexpected reunion in the world. But he has to calm down, because she IS fine, and he's just stormed a great lord's hall threatening murder, and the sitch between Meleagant and his daddy is a little intense and complex. Now, of course, what follows this delicious awkwardness is one of the most memorable and romantic reunion sex scenes in all of literature, and I've got to suspect that the weirdness of the former scene increases the hotness of the latter scene. But yeah, if their reunion is too disney-fied or princess bride, I will be pissed. There's a place for those types of reunions, and its not ASOIAF. Here's the other thing: anyone else with me on the idea that George's greatest forte is in writing shit with lots of brimming sexual tension, and he's not his greatest when actually writing sex scenes? Like if I have to read any more fake sex dialogue I think I will vomit. (*And T.H. White Lancelot is an interesting comparison -- since Lancelot is hideously ugly and filled with self-hatred.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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