Canon

[Hooper]

We started discussing this in a previous thread, but I'm spinning it off to keep the discussion concise. It was discussed that the wiki should establish some type of Canon policy to deal with content from other media. I'll quote another user's initial thoughts on how to break it down:

I think it might be advisable to adopt a Star Wars-style 'level' system of canonicity. For example, I'd suggest something like this:

A level - everything in the Song of Ice and Fire novels and the Dunk 'n' Egg short stories. Where information conflicts, the more recent reference or the more frequent one is taken as being correct.

B level - pronouncements by GRRM; information given in SSM posts, interviews and blog entries; personal correspondence with GRRM (i.e. GRRM's descriptions of the Targaryen kings given in his emails to Amoka that they made public); information from the pen and paper RPGs provided directly by GRRM; information from spoiler chapters and book readings from signings/conventions etc. This information is assumed to be correct until it is supersceded or replaced by later information.

Non-canon - anything written by anyone other than GRRM, including material from the TV series, the Cyanide computer games, the pen and paper RPGs etc.

A rough rule like that might be helpful in determining what is canon and what isn't.

I've created a sandbox on the wiki here, but I'll quote it as well. I took much of my inspiration from Star Wars' canon policy that wookieepedia uses, found here.

Canon is a term used to denote officially accepted material within fictional work. When there are numerous sources for fictional content, it becomes unclear what is considered as having officially occurred or to be officially correct, and what is not. The below canon policy is how this wiki clarifies sourced information from other media in relation to George R. R. Martin's own writings for A Song of Ice and Fire.

The Canon is broken down into three levels: M, T, and D. Together, these three levels form the overall A Song of Ice and Fire continuity. Each ascending level overrides the lower ones; for example, in the television series Mago is killed, but he still lives in the novels. Therefore, he is considered officially alive in the overall story.

• M-Canon or Martin-Canon is content created by series author George R. R. Martin. This includes all novels, shorts, and published writings within the series; unpublished personal writings; fan and media correspondence, and the like. Anything written by Martin is officially correct within the series. The only way that M-Canon can be outdated or retconned is if Martin writes new content that overrides the later.
  

• T-Canon or Television Canon is content that is seen or created for the HBO television series Game of Thrones. Content seen in the series that is not directly contradictory to M-Canon content is considered officially correct within the series. However, any changes or alterations within the series are overridden by M-Canon (for example character ages, or unwritten deaths seen in the show).
  

• D-Canon or Derived Canon is content that is seen within officially licensed products based on the series, such as games, comics, or companion books. D-Canon is considered officially true within the series unless it is directly contradictory or overridden by T- or M-Canon. Examples include more in-depth background on minor characters seen in the roleplaying games, or artwork in companion books showcasing characters that follows any written details about them.
  

Anyways, tweaks, additions, discussions? Also, should there be a Non Canon category? Additionally, should we add a blurb detailing how to deal with previously licensed content that is now licensed to someone else? For example, GoO lost the RPG rights when they went belly up, and now GRP has it. If we were to find information in the new that contradicts the old, how would we deal with that (may be just mentally creating a nonproblem here, as I can't recall anything that does).

[mor2]

There was another thread on the topic, lost on page 3 of the wiki sub forum.

Personally I prefer the simple Canon, semi canon and none canon system, where Canon is "everything in the Song of Ice and Fire novels and the Dunk 'n' Egg short stories. Where information conflicts, the more recent reference or the more frequent one is taken as being correct."

I would really like to know where the Citadel stands, since I get most of my info from there and probably should have tages some information as semi canon, as for the the tv series and other work i'll let you decide where it goes and who takes precedence. lets just make sure we update the guidelines in the slowly forming Manual_of_Style.

[Ran]

I'd say direct statements from GRRM (e.g. SSM material) would have to trump stuff we can only guess as to whether i might have come from him (e.g. stuff in the TV show). The wrinkle here is that sometimes we're able to verify details as having come from George, for example things in the roleplaying books which I know for a fact are derived from his notes (e.g., the details of the Band of Nine in GoO's RPG, the details of House Strong in the Dance of the Dragons in GR's RPG), so I guess those occasions things might as well be considered as coming "from George" as opposed to "maybe from George".

As far as the TV show, that's a tricky one. There's not much that I can think of where they reveal new information that we didn't know, or that we can say for sure came from George (for example, the details we see of Grand Maester Malleon's book -- the entry for the Umbers, etc. -- were entirely created by Bryan Cogman; similarly, the scroll that seemed to suggest something going on with Aegon IV visiting Sunspear, also not from George.)

[mor2]

I believe that the farther the TV show progress the more evidently none canon it will become, renaming the others to white walkers for sake of PR avoiding the lost associating is nothing compared to when they start cleaving out parts of the plot and stitching the story.

[mor2]

So anyone willing to give this one another shot?

[Ran]

Just to comment on what's there first.

Content seen in the series that is not directly contradictory to M-Canon content is considered officially correct within the series

I can tell you that pretty much nothing the TV show invents is actually coming from George, so why should this be assumed to be correct, right? The only canon that concerns the ASoIaF series is that material which comes from GRRM as an author, it seems to me, or as a verifiable direct contributor to whatever specific detail is in question. Once the writers of the TV show say that detail X, Y, or Z comes from George, then I think that's something we can consider as falling within a hierarchy of canon. But if there's no clear indication that it's from George, it really should not be polluting the wiki text.

... or companion books.

Like The World of Ice and Fire, co-written by GRRM? Hrm...

I don't know, I find this hierarchy of canon very troublesome. I think the only hierarchy should be:

P-Canon: Published by GRRM (ASoIaF, Dunk & Egg, anything else he contributes to directly as a credited author)

U-Canon: Unpublished material released by GRRM in public circumstances (correspondence, readings and signings, statements in interviews, etc.)

S-Canon: Secondhand material released by GRRM in private circumstances to third parties (bits and pieces of information that I've reported that haven't yet been released to the public by GRRM directly, or published; little details in the RPGs that come from GRRM's materials and have been noted as such, and so on).

Any thoughts on that? I'd be happy to write it up more properly once there's some consensus.

[Ran]

Thinking about it, it should probably be:

P-Canon: Published by GRRM

S-Canon: Given to GRRM directly to third parties who publish it in secondary material (like the TV show, RPGs, etc.) in a verifiable way.

U-Canon: Unpublished material released by GRRM in public circumstances (correspondence, readings and signings, statements in interviews, etc.)

I-Canon: Indirect material -- GRRM gave it to third parties in private circumstances.

So, that's how you can fit the TV show -- new details that we know are from George should be considered above material that George has said in public, because it seems to me that he's likelier to feel bound by what he tells the show or another licensed derivative than he is to what he says in random conversation with fans.

But the important thing is that any and all things considered even partially canonical have to be from George.

[mor2]

I have trouble to accept the TV show as cannon, I am glad when it expands the ASOIAF setting info like the RPG books does, but I cant say the same in terms of events. The TV show, tells the same story, only rewrited and sexed up for another medium, thus by definition it's an adaptation. Which is why I have no problem referencing the other semi canon material in the articles, while the TV show grants a new section...

Anyway, I want to expand the Ref template, to include other semi cannon material. Which would allow us some interesting options, with no need to search and rewrite how someone defined it, cannon/semi/whatever.

[mor2]

A quick canonicity quesiton. In the HBO show, season 1, in in the fourth episode (at 23:14) and in the sixth (at 45:52), shown maester Malleon's Lineages book, which adds some info on house Umber members would that be canon?

[Ran]

Nope. Bryan Cogman wrote it all. I recall as he was telling George and I about it at the production office, and it was clear he tried to make it "sound" right, but he was just pretty much making it up.

[mor2]

Thinking about it, it should probably be:

P-Canon: Published by GRRM

S-Canon: Given to GRRM directly to third parties who publish it in secondary material (like the TV show, RPGs, etc.) in a verifiable way.

U-Canon: Unpublished material released by GRRM in public circumstances (correspondence, readings and signings, statements in interviews, etc.)

I-Canon: Indirect material -- GRRM gave it to third parties in private circumstances.

So, that's how you can fit the TV show -- new details that we know are from George should be considered above material that George has said in public, because it seems to me that he's likelier to feel bound by what he tells the show or another licensed derivative than he is to what he says in random conversation with fans.

But the important thing is that any and all things considered even partially canonical have to be from George.

So what was decided, we use this as official? Bbecause the current listing has some glaring problems, acording to it the companion book would be bellow the Tv show ...

[Walder Waters]

As he is involved in the companion book indirectly, isn't there a possibility to grand it M-canon-status somehow?

I think the new material in the companion book is agreed by GRRM before the book is released. It is directly related to the book series and has the purpose to give additional information on it.

I believe GRRM himself will use the companion book as a source of information on the historic background etc.

[Werthead]

So what was decided, we use this as official? Bbecause the current listing has some glaring problems, acording to it the companion book would be bellow the Tv show ...

The companion book - you mean The World of Ice and Fire, right? - is co-written by George and fully approved by him, so it would rank as 'P-rated' under this system, the highest possible rating of canon.

The HBO companion book will be totally non-canon, as far as I can tell.

[Ran]

I was prompted to get this updated, so I've taken a stab at a re-written guideline for canon, loosely following my suggestion above. I decided to simplify it into three levels.

[Talleyrand]

Are we to regard stuff from the game like the existence of House Sarwyck non-canon until Martin mentions them in a book?

[Linda]

Yes. Non-canon until Martin specifies otherwise, either in a book or if he says explicitly that they're canon.

[Winterz]

Thinking about it, it should probably be:

P-Canon: Published by GRRM

S-Canon: Given to GRRM directly to third parties who publish it in secondary material (like the TV show, RPGs, etc.) in a verifiable way.

U-Canon: Unpublished material released by GRRM in public circumstances (correspondence, readings and signings, statements in interviews, etc.)

I-Canon: Indirect material -- GRRM gave it to third parties in private circumstances.

So, that's how you can fit the TV show -- new details that we know are from George should be considered above material that George has said in public, because it seems to me that he's likelier to feel bound by what he tells the show or another licensed derivative than he is to what he says in random conversation with fans.

But the important thing is that any and all things considered even partially canonical have to be from George.

So I'm a bit confused..shouldn't it be something like this?

Canonical content:

-P-Canon (Top canon)

-U-Canon

Non-canonical content (but still allowed if in due sections):

-S-Canon (After all, about the show how do we know what is verified from GRRM or not?)

-I-Canon

Fandom (fanfilms, official stories based on ASOIAF which take different paths): Not allowed.

[Linda]

There is an updated break-down of the canon types at the wiki itself: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Canon#Canon

P-Canon: Primary canon, consisting of works written by George R.R. Martin, excluding his TV show scripts which are written to the TV show canon as established by the showrunners.

S-Canon: Secondary canon, consisting of information verified as having been given by George R.R. Martin directly to officially licensed third parties, such as details in the television show and roleplaying games. Please note the "verified" -- origin with Martin must be an established fact, not simply assumed, and must clearly refer to his series as opposed to the canon of the derivative works.

T-Canon: Tertiary canon, consisting of information released or revealed by George R.R. Martin through correspondence with fans, readings and signings, statements in interviews, etc

[Winterz]

Apologies but I'm still largely confused about this "S-Canon" level. Isn't it included within the T-Canon? I mean how could he confirm the information if not going through T?!

Could someone give an example please.

Would something like in Episode 4 or so of the first season where Barristan Selmy speaks to Eddard Stark telling him something like:

You're too modest. I've seen you cut down at least a few good knights yourself.

It does not conflict with anything in the P-Canon so I assume is this the sort of S-Canon you refer to?

[Linda]

The difference between S and T is as follows:

If George confirms that a detail that he gave to the show or to another official product such as the RPG is book-canon, then it is considered S-canon.

If Geoge gives a canon detail in an email to a fan, then it is T-canon.

The reason for the difference is that George may feel somewhat more bound by information given to an official product than by information given to a fan. He has stressed in the past that any information he gives in an answer to an email is canon at the time he gives it but may change later. However, even information given to the show could be overriden if he decides to for the books.

But perhaps the S and T distinction is not needed. We could just go with Primary and Secondary, with Secondary being anything that comes from George but which hasn't been published in one of his books.