What will become of the Lannister siblings

[Alexia]

I promised Black Amethyst I’d start this thread when it came up in an unrelated thread. So here are my theories – I’ll start by saying that I consider all three Lannisters villains, if tremendously well written and interesting villains. Cersei – nuff said. Jaime Oathbreaker – defenestrating children and hurling infants with trebuchets. Tyrion the Imp – based on Shakespeare’s Richard III, he is a kinslaying twisted little monkey demon.

Cersei

We already have the outlines of her storyline end, I think. I assume the prophecy originally referred to Daenerys casting Cersei down and Tyrion murdering her, but we’ve seen prophecies not come true in the way that was expected. Cersei will undoubtedly see Tommen die, although I think Myrcella’s prophecy referred to the thwarted crowning and assassination attempt. So I think Myrcella may survive, at least she has a shot.

However, I think Sansa will be Cersei’s queen. There is too much that would be satisfying from a narrative perspective about Sansa displacing Cersei, either as a queen in the North or on the Iron Throne, and a confrontation between the two when the power dynamics have flipped. And Cersei now feels guilt and shame about her horrible treatment of Sansa – which nicely sets the stage for some of that, I think.

To be honest, I'm really annoyed by Cersei's treatment in AFFC-ADWD (which I can only imagine is intended to build Jaime up in comparison) but I'm hoping that she'll get some of her mojo and pure awesome back for TWOW. I foresee her snatching Tommen and trying to make a run for Casterly Rock, where she still has something of a power base left. From there, she can try to rally an army against the Tyrells and KL.

Jaime

Originally my theory for the valonquar, I now believe that Jaime is dead. I think that was his last POV, he has been gone long enough to be noted as missing in KL which means that well before the end of ADWD (before Cersei’s Great Nude Parade) Jaime had met with Lady Stoneheart. He’s a goner, sorry folks. And IMO… Jaime served his purpose in the narrative. His redemptive arc can be compared with what Tyrion is experience, which is exactly the opposite. He took Riverrun. He recognized some of the evil he’d done and tried to do some small things to make up for it. But in the end, he who lives by the sword must die by the sword. Jaime has done too many monstrous things to not finally meet justice – and it is rather fitting that when he meets justice, it is for something he didn’t do (the murder of Robb Stark) as well as his frankly appalling actions with respect to Edmure.

Bye, Jaime. I hated you with high and holy passion, but in the love to hate you sense. I’m going to miss you and your POVs.

Tyrion (the purpose behind starting this thread)

Hello Dr. Evil… and how do you do? Tyrion Lannister, formerly one of the most sympathetic characters in the book is now practically a cackling caricature of evil (and his POVs are less entertaining than they were in ACOK-ASOS, but I digress). He was planning to set Myrcella and Tommen at war, for the sole purpose of hurting Cersei through Myrcella’s inevitable execution. He wants to rape and murder his sister who, whatever his flaws, has been given plenty of reason to believe that he murdered her child (like how he threatened to rape one of her children, and the constant threats on said child’s life). He walks around bragging about how he had a singer killed because he didn’t like his song. He brags of how he murdered his father and his nephew, wholely embracing the kinslayer label. He had some truly stomach-turning scenes with vulnerable women throughout the series. As far as I can see, Penny is what is keeping him tied to some core of humanity – because she is apparently too ugly to sexually attract him (and I’m not sure that she is all that ugly, just a dwarf) and I think that she is dying right now.

So, what will become of Tyrion? For certain, he will meet Daenerys and help her get her monsters under control. He will also offer her his distinctive political counsel, helping her achieve the path she was set on at the end of ASOS and making her become more Tywin-esque (poisoning the wells and all that jazz). I also believe that he is going to bring down House Lannister with his new army of pet sellswords. The simple fact that he signed in blood (haha… :leaving: ) tells me that he doesn’t believe he can really take Casterly Rock. It is all part of his plan to avenge himself on his family members.

I think he will die at some point during ADOS. I’m not sure how, but here are some theories. 1) He will annoy Daenerys by sexually mistreating one of her companions or by hitting on her, and become a tasty dragon snack. 2) He will make it back to Casterly Rock, and be killed by one of his fellow Lannisters. 3) He will ride a dragon, join Daenerys in the fight against the Others, and die in the battle on the Trident that Daenerys prophesied.

Now... in terms of Cersei and Tyrion. If Cersei is in Casterly Rock when Tyrion returns with Daenerys, it is quite possible that the whole valonquar prophecy could take place there, with Daenerys displacing her. Not my preferred theory, especially since I'd rather not see Tyrion engage in his fantasy of raping and murdering her, but possible. :stillsick:

Discuss.

[Alexia]

Yay; approved.... *bumps so it will actually be seen*

[The Oncoming Storm]

Actually, Tyrion becoming a boring POV is a bigger sin in my eyes than his actual crimes. He has some high points, but Penny and the endless travelogue annoys the hell out of me.

Jaime will be fine. I never believe in cliffhangers, and he's still my top candidate for the valonquar.

Really hope Tommen and Myrcella survive. Especially Tommen and his kittens. Sure not even GRRM would kill the kittens...

[ZacharyB]

Actually, Tyrion becoming a boring POV is a bigger sin in my eyes than his actual crimes. He has some high points, but Penny and the endless travelogue annoys the hell out of me.

Jaime will be fine. I never believe in cliffhangers, and he's still my top candidate for the valonquar.

Really hope Tommen and Myrcella survive. Especially Tommen and his kittens. Sure not even GRRM would kill the kittens...

GrrM doesn't have to kill any kittens. Only Tommen! ;)

[brashcandy]

Good food for thought Alexia, but some I things quibble with:

1. As much as I dislike Jaime - I don't think he's dead and I don't think his part in the narrative is complete either - We still have that dream vision of Bran's where he sees Sansa and Arya surrounded by the looming giant and the Hound and a golden man - I'm assuming that the Golden man is Jaime and maybe he will be the one to take down unGregor, which would be kinda sweet given that Gregor is Cersei's champion and will probably become her personal bodyguard next.

2. The idea that Tyrion is a monster I don't agree with - he can be a wicked little man - but Tywin did have it coming and Cersei has always been cruel to him. Saying that he wanted to rape her is twisted, but I more took it as he is just reveling in being twisted, not a serious threat. Now his treatment of women can be despicable, but he's also always regretted his actions afterwards and his whole "where do whores go" quest, seems to be slowly humanizing him.

3. I love the idea of Sansa being Cersei's younger queen, but this may not come to pass. If Sansa decides to remain the bastard Alayne, and live long and happy with Sandor ;) then no she won't be the younger queen. More and more, I'm thinking that Cersei is actively making that prophecy real, but that there are forces both from Cersei's end and from the intervention of other people that will displace the prophecy. If there has to be a valonquar however, I favour one of Robert's sons for that role, most likely Gendry.

[ARYa_Nym]

I started seriously hating Catelyn when she let Jaime go. She will fail again in the afterlife. Brienne will save him somehow.

& from Jaimie's dream, Cersei, Tywin, Joffrey, and Joanna seemed to already be in the afterlife so I take it he will die after them.

He obviously dies after the noted dead Lannisters but Cersei included. It's like Theon's dream where he saw Robb only Theon didn't see himself dead.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Would Jaime really die off screen like that? I have no idea what will happen with him. It was hard to believe he would really fall for such an obvious trap, especially after all his talk about finding caution (using scouts).

[Woman of War]

Actually Tyrion going down to the very bottom of self-esteem and dignity is a necessary turn the story has to take. He himself has looked into the dephts of his capacities of being truly evil, but his rape phantasies about Cersei are alike to murder phantasies most of us nourish from time to time - and they stay phantasies. He might kill Cersei in the end , he might as well look at her thinking it's not worth it at their final meeting, thus freeing himself at least a little from the ghost of Shae.

Yes, Tyrion has proven that he is capable of doing the most horrible deeds, he himself is the one who knows that best and he throws this in everybody's face : " I am shit, scum,dirt, look at me...." before others can throw it at him. This is by the way a constant trait of him, joking about his dwarfishness, his ugliness, his being vile before the others do: " Never forget who you are, because the others sure won't......( or like that)"

He has to scratch himself from the bottom to find out who he is now.

And that is what his POVs show. I like his ADWD story very much, going down to be a pig-knight and humiliated slave, but still keeping his head above water tyrionlike only just not drowning. He even seeks to bring the humiliation upon him by getting whipped several times for mouthing back, not willing to learn how a proper dwarf should behave. And the riverride, the description of Volantis were awesome, hello Bruce Chatwin.

AND Jaime DID NOT throw the baby with a trebuchet, he threatened, awful as it is this is not the same

[The Mother of The Others]

King Tyrion will make them bang each other in front of everyone as entertainment. (payback for the midget tilt sideshow)

[Many and More]

I was rather fond of Jaime, right up until he failed to respond to Cersei's letter pleading for his help. So much for true love. To be fair, given the vague nature of her pleas, he probably didn't realize how much danger she was in. Still, he became a bit difficult for me to defend at that point.

But I digress. I don't think Jaime will die. I have a feeling he will be the last Lannister sibling standing at the end of the series, whether we like it or not.

Since Tyrion is GRRM's favourite character, I agree that he's going to die. I think Tyrion will help Dany claim the Iron Throne, possibly even becoming one of the dragonriders, at least for a while. But I think he's going to come to a tragic end. (And I might cheer a bit; let's face it, even Tyrion himself realizes that he's irredeemable.)

Cersei, who became annoyingly incompetent and suddenly and inexplicably stupid in AFFC and ADWD, has hit rock bottom and will somehow manage to get herself out of trouble and wreak more delightful havoc. I hope. I like to believe that the valonqar prophecy means Jaime will kill Cersei, but what would drive Jaime to strangle Cersei in a rage? I think the most likely scenario is that Cersei kills Tyrion, and does it in front of Jaime.

As for the Lannister children, as much as I would love to see Myrcella become one of the heads of the dragon, I fear that they're all doomed.

[Raksha the Demon]

Actually, Tyrion becoming a boring POV is a bigger sin in my eyes than his actual crimes. He has some high points, but Penny and the endless travelogue annoys the hell out of me.

Jaime will be fine. I never believe in cliffhangers, and he's still my top candidate for the valonquar.

Really hope Tommen and Myrcella survive. Especially Tommen and his kittens. Sure not even GRRM would kill the kittens...

GRRM did kill off a child who had a pet kitten - Rhaenys, younger than Tommen, just a toddler with a black kitten she called Balerion. It's implied that Balerion the kitten survived and grew up to be the phantom black cat of the Keep who scares Tommen in ADWD. I don't see much hope for Tommen, which is a shame; he's a nice little kid whose only crime was having the wrong parents. As for Ser Pounce and the other kittens, maybe they'll be spared. On the other hand, GRRM has had dogs and Stark direwolves killed...

I think GRRM is a cat person; so perhaps he won't kill Tommen's kitties. Personally, I'd rather that both Tommen and his pets live and Cersei dies, but I fear the kid is doomed.

[mcb]

Really hope Tommen and Myrcella survive. Especially Tommen and his kittens. Sure not even GRRM would kill the kittens...

He killed Mushroom. Sure, Mushroom was not a kitten, but an adult cat, but still.

[Lady of Long Lake]

1. Love your ideas about Cercei and Sansa.

2. I can't see Jaime dying. His POV is pivotal for the war and political schemes......from the dark side:)

3. Wow! I never found Tyrion evil. He seemed to cross over more into asshole-land in Book 5 but I gave him some leeway because of what he learned from Jaime about Tysha.

I never recall him threatening to rape Cercei's kids! I remember him egging Cercei on by saying she should sleep with all her brothers to be more fair. It seemed to me he was trying to provoke her and it wasn't a sincere wish. He was insulting her and it worked well because she slapped him. As to him raping Dany's handmaids- he would never do that. He's not like that at all. He's so kind to women that he made sure Bronn told the prostitutes he was a dwarf before they met him, in case they wanted to refuse the job. He's only rude and crude to Cercei...but she brings that out in people LOL!

[R & R]

Jaime as valonquar: I had to Wiki that, and sure enough he is the 2nd born of the Lannister twins. Though "little" is a stretch, as opposed to say, "younger", I suppose there's a claim to be made in terms of the notorious vagueness of prophecies. And should he be killed off, I hope it's in a valiant manner, because let's face facts people, just about all of us love Jaime, even if some (suggesting large) percentage love to hate him. GRRM didn't spend all that word-count on Jaime training with Ilyn Payne to renew his swordsmanship as a lefty simply to have Jaime be hung by unCat's BwBs just like that. Jaime's death will have to serve a purpose. Such that it's as likely as not Jaime's gonna die, it's gonna be to some valiant purpose, because I don't think GRRM is as given to existential character endings as all that. And because "littler" doesn't necessarily refer to "younger", which in each case is Tyrion.

And now that I think on it, a quick and purposeless (existential) ending to a, um, major secondary (ie, non-POV) character brings out the giggle and squee in this reader. Thus negating anything I might have been trying to argue with this post.

*Hearts GRRM, just for this*

[Alexia]

I never recall him threatening to rape Cercei's kids!

In ACOK, he tells Cersei that everything that is done to Alayaya will be done to Tommen, including the beatings and the rapes and that he'll do it himself.

About Dany's handmaids -- I raise you Ilyrio's slave girl and a certain dead-eyed redheaded whore.

He's so kind to women that he made sure Bronn told the prostitutes he was a dwarf before they met him, in case they wanted to refuse the job.

:lmao:

*wipes tears*

It was actually so they wouldn't give him the initial shocked look that he disliked, but I'll let that slide.

I will respond further to posts in this thread tomorrow, but couldn't resist answering this one. 'Nite, board.

[GoodGuyA]

Cersei, I just honestly want to see gone. Even Kevan thought she was a disgusting wreck at the end of the book, and we've been looking inside her head to her completely twisted sense of reason. I highly doubt that Sansa will have much to do with the Iron Throne from this point forward, because the Vale is pretty secluded. She will become a driving force for those loyal to the Starks, yes, but she's not going to be the ultimate force that brings Cersei down. She'll be a victim of her own haughtiness... Or the last killer in the book.

Jamie will die. He will. He did not die off screen (that would be unbelievably insulting), I highly doubt it will be Lady Stoneheart doing him in, and he will die by some sort of irony. He still stands as a powerful force in the stories (as well as a perspective in the Riverlands) and gives the readers some hope that there was something worth following. His death will be powerful.

I can't believe so many people subscribe to the "Dany's Hand" theory. After all the torment Tyrion's been put through, do you honestly expect a happy ending? Seriously? I never expect him to reach Lannisport, and if he does, he will never leave. I think the Lannister family is completely done for. We've expected it since we learned of the debt they were putting the Iron Throne in.

[violet storm]

Very interesting theories:

1. Cersei - agree with yourassessment that she suddenly became a different character - stupid, short-sighted and highly-annoying - after the first book. I suspect that her complexity in the AGOT stemmed from being in unhappy marriage, while being in power made her simple and not that interesting. I am looking forward to her development in TWOW where I think she has a chance of going through a transformation and even remorse driven by some loss. It is not clear if her naked march taught her any lessons, but rumors of Jamie's death and potential death of her other children can drive her to that place. I do not think it would be as dramatic as "Reek", but enough to make her POV intertesting again

2. Jamie - I can't perceive him that evil after the last two books, and I do not think it is a coinsedence that Brienne, one of the purest soles in the book, starts liking him that much (I doubt for his looks). I do hope there is a role for him in TWOW, his POVs became one of the most interesting to read, but this is one line that GRRM can afford to finish...

3. Tyrion - I do not see him as evil at all. I see him as one of the most tragic characters who is hardened by life and pushed into the side of evil, but has a lot of goodness inside. When he tried to be just, he got no recognition or gratitude, lost his nose and almost lost his life. He is pretty gentle and surprisingly selfless with many characters in the book - Sansa, griff, penny, jorah... He makes outrageous claims, but this is what is expected from him. When it comes to actions, his choices tend to be noble. I hope GRRM does not kill him off before he gets recognition he deserves

[Daenerys Faithful Servant]

I promised Black Amethyst I’d start this thread when it came up in an unrelated thread. So here are my theories – I’ll start by saying that I consider all three Lannisters villains, if tremendously well written and interesting villains. Cersei – nuff said. Jaime Oathbreaker – defenestrating children and hurling infants with trebuchets. Tyrion the Imp – based on Shakespeare’s Richard III, he is a kinslaying twisted little monkey demon.

:bowdown:

I'll offer a better response later on, but seriously I am glad I am not the only one that has such dislike for all three of Tywin's twisted children.

[mediocre cheese]

Wow! I never found Tyrion evil. He seemed to cross over more into asshole-land in Book 5 but I gave him some leeway because of what he learned from Jaime about Tysha. I never recall him threatening to rape Cercei's kids!!

Not only did he threaten to rape them, its heavily implied he would have had tommen scourged, had he been able to.:

""I promised my sister I would treat Tommen as she treated Alayaya," he remembered aloud. He felt as though he might retch. "How can I scourge an eight-year-old boy?" But if I don’t, Cersei wins. ...

Another blow; yet a relief as well, he must admit it. He was fond of Tommen."

Those lines crossed the line for me personally. Anyone who would seriously consider having an 8 year old whipped (I imagine he wouldn't actuatly have done it, not for any moral reason, but because he knew his father would kill him for doing so) for the crimes of his mother is evil.

[The Faceless Bard]

Cersei is wicked, Jaime has been a function of what he believed to be a unredeemable reputation, which he has realized he can change with the right choices, and Tyrion deserves his return to glory... as Danys hand as he does what Ser badass Barristan couldnt, bring her back to Westeros