What will become of the Lannister siblings

[Black Amethyst]

Oh wow, so many ideas...where to begin? I begin by thanking Alexia for the post and sharing them!

Lemme get something straight here in all of this. You obviously think Dany will make it to Westeros, but you think Sansa will be queen and Dany more of a warrior and even a tool of Tyrion to achieve his end? Basically you think the story will end with Dany harrying Westeros but not winning the throne?

But anyway, onto individuals:

Cersei- I totally see her going to Casterly Rock. I completely agree with that as that is where her power base has shifted. Do you think Tommen will make it to the Rock or die at the hand of someone in KL? (eg. Varys is that bad-ass?) It's going to be really hard to prise him from the clutches of whoever will hold KL. I think. For me, I keep seeing the valonquar as different people, so it's hard for me to have conviction about how that will go down. One day I see it as Jaime, and another as Sandor and just recently even Loras made some sense. But I agree it will go down. Her exit in the story is a lot closer. I don't know if she would ever feel guilt or shame about Sansa. She's a pretty cold-hearted bitch about that stuff. I'll reserve judgement on that showdown.

Tyrion- I can get behind a lot of what you said. I too agree that he's become a lot less enjoyable for me, especially in the latest book. Penny is quite a pitiable character, this is true, but I think the dynamic between her and Tyrion might just be him pushing some kind of "just because they are dwarfs they don't have to get along" message. I don't like the way it's going down between the two of them though. It's ugly. What really scares me is that I can totally see him meeting up with Dany and Tywin-izing her. And that horrifies me. She doesn't have any background in Westeros, so he can tell her whatever he wants. She doesn't seem to have been too interested in listening to anything Barristan has had to say on the subject. I'm kinda not understanding Dany more and more as the story goes on too, though. I'm kinda through with all the Mereenese confusion and crap. If she gains control of the dragons, I think it will be a bad scene though and she will just terrify everyone into submission. Like some kind of freaky barbarian. Speaking of freaky barbarians, what about Victarion? Won't he be quite the chink in Tyrion's plans?

Jaime- But.....I don't want him to be dead! LOL I like his chapters...and what about poor Brienne? Where does she fit into that scene? You do raise some compelling points that make sense for him exiting the story though. That would be a bold move......And wouldn't that also mean that Lady Stoneheart and the fucking BWB win again? I sooo hate them. I'm so tired of all these zombies. So I guess you don't subscribe to any sort of theory surrounding the "Scooby gang".

One other question. How do you think Aegon will fit into all of this?

[Sunni]

ADWD SPOILERS

He Everyone,

I'm a newbie and had to delete my first few posts because they weren't in the right folder.

[Sunni]

this is a test. [\spoiler]

[hotweaselsoup]

Jaime and Cersei will die at each other's hands, together, the way they came into the world. There really is no other way their stories can end. Tyrion I'm not so sure about, but I think he'll be alive at the end. Maybe a king.

[merchantkingpriest]

Tyrion is Dr. Evil? More like Mini-me. ba-dum-cha.

Jaime is alive..for now, probably run off with Brienne to try and find Sansa before the BWB find them again. Tyrion is gonna end up being someone's hand a la Tywin and then dying somehow. Cersei is gonna get killed inadvertantly by Jaime.

[Raksha the Demon]

Very interesting theories:

1. Cersei - agree with yourassessment that she suddenly became a different character - stupid, short-sighted and highly-annoying - after the first book. I suspect that her complexity in the AGOT stemmed from being in unhappy marriage, while being in power made her simple and not that interesting. I am looking forward to her development in TWOW where I think she has a chance of going through a transformation and even remorse driven by some loss. It is not clear if her naked march taught her any lessons, but rumors of Jamie's death and potential death of her other children can drive her to that place. I do not think it would be as dramatic as "Reek", but enough to make her POV intertesting again

2. Jamie - I can't perceive him that evil after the last two books, and I do not think it is a coinsedence that Brienne, one of the purest soles in the book, starts liking him that much (I doubt for his looks). I do hope there is a role for him in TWOW, his POVs became one of the most interesting to read, but this is one line that GRRM can afford to finish...

3. Tyrion - I do not see him as evil at all. I see him as one of the most tragic characters who is hardened by life and pushed into the side of evil, but has a lot of goodness inside. When he tried to be just, he got no recognition or gratitude, lost his nose and almost lost his life. He is pretty gentle and surprisingly selfless with many characters in the book - Sansa, griff, penny, jorah... He makes outrageous claims, but this is what is expected from him. When it comes to actions, his choices tend to be noble. I hope GRRM does not kill him off before he gets recognition he deserves

Tyrion and Jaime seem to have had a strain of empathy that Cersei lacked. Jaime's empathy was seen as he was growing up by his kindness to and friendship with the younger brother that his father and sister despised. Later, Jaime responds to Brienne's plight and does the most unselfish thing in his life; he goes back and saves her life when it was inconvenient, out of his way, and not advantageous to him. I think Jaime's mingled admiration for and empathy for Brienne stems from his own youthful dreams of becoming a knight of the Kingsguard and being chaste and chivalrous; he admires the late Ser Arthur Dayne and he admires Brienne. Brienne is chaste and honorable and chivalrous. I do not think that Jaime has been redeemed by suffering; he still seems unconcerned by what he did to Bran. But his saving Brienne was a milestone for him and shows that Jaime is capable of doing better.

Tyrion seemed to have the largest streak of compassion and empathy, mingled with the arrogance and viciousness of Tywin Lannister. He designs the saddle for Bran; although no one expected it of him and he had no obligation to the boy; and he offers kindness and good advice to Jon Snow, another person to whom he owes nothing. And Tyrion did stop the Kingsguard from further abuse of Sansa; and was kind to her long before he assumed a husband's responsibility over her. I think that Tyrion's protection of the naive and often annoying Penny comes partly from empathy and partly because he thinks he does owe her protection, since her prior protector, her brother, was killed because he was mistaken for Tyrion and for the reward Cersei offered for Tyrion's head. Dragging Jorah along out of slavery was one part compassion and two parts Tyrion needing an introduction to Dany from someone she knew. Tyrion did display compassion in risking his life to defend Young Griff, which might backfire on the kid in the end, if he catches the Greyscale that Jon Connington caught in fishing Tyrion out of the river.

Tyrion offered Sansa some kindness on their wedding night; but he was not totally selfless. He did not stop her, even though he knew she was very young and scared, from stripping naked, he only granted her a temporary reprieve from consummation and became very annoyed when she asked what would happen if she never wanted to consummate their vows. If Tyrion had been completely selfless, he would have helped Sansa escape. We know he later became infuriated enough to murder his father, so I can't use Tyrion's fear of and obedience to Tywin as a valid reason to selfishly keep a miserable thirteen-year-old girl as his bride.

Tyrion did have a bard murdered for endangering Shae (actually endangering Tyrion's ability to have frequent access to Shae in King's Landing); and his threat of whipping his nine-year-old nephew and possibly raping him is ghastly, especially since it is not an empty one. He does seem to have sent Myrcella off to Dorne knowing that it could cost the little girl her life, mostly to infuriate Cersei.

Tyrion is getting darker and more savage in ADWD. I think he has crossed some pretty significant lines; and if he continues to fall, morally speaking, and does end up setting up wars between his innocent niece and nephew or causing their death, I will mourn the loss of what could have been a man who was strong and compassionate enough to do great good.

[Kadence]

Very nice post Raksha the Demon, I agree with your thoughts on Tyrion.

Jaime Oathbreaker – defenestrating children and hurling infants with trebuchets.

I laughed at defenestrating :D But I think the Jaime who did that is gone, he's a different man now. And of course I highly doubt he would have carried out the threat to Edmure's child.

I assume the prophecy originally referred to Daenerys casting Cersei down and Tyrion murdering her, but we’ve seen prophecies not come true in the way that was expected. Cersei will undoubtedly see Tommen die, although I think Myrcella’s prophecy referred to the thwarted crowning and assassination attempt. So I think Myrcella may survive, at least she has a shot.

Like you I'm guessing Sansa, not sure why you think this was changed though? Why would it have shifted from Dany to Sansa and not always been Sansa from the start? I don't see any reason to believe it has or will change, whoever ends up the Younger Queen will always have been meant as such.

Like most I'm guessing the valonqar is Jaime though it could be someone else. No chance Jaime's dead at all - or if he is, UnJaime will continue to be a POV character; his arc is for sure not over and he won't become a non-POV like Stoneheart. I agree with you on Myrcella, I think she lives. I think being maimed is somewhat a get-out-of-death card for Martin's characters - probably his soft spot for cripples, bastards and broken things. Myrcella is "broken" and thus survives with a golden veil/shroud IMO. I don't think Penny is dying, she might just have a normal diarrhea.

And Cersei now feels guilt and shame about her horrible treatment of Sansa – which nicely sets the stage for some of that, I think.

Really? When was this? Was this during her walk?

I highly doubt that Sansa will have much to do with the Iron Throne from this point forward, because the Vale is pretty secluded.

You are certainly mistaken :) Regardless of whether Sansa becomes Maggy's Younger Queen, she is pivotal to Littlefinger's plots and will be a central figure in his rebellion against the Lannisters. She's the key to all his alliances, especially his hold on the Riverlands as Lord Paramount.

You obviously think Dany will make it to Westeros, but you think Sansa will be queen and Dany more of a warrior and even a tool of Tyrion to achieve his end? Basically you think the story will end with Dany harrying Westeros but not winning the throne?

Sansa being the Younger Queen of Maggy's prpohecy does not mean she will remain Queen at the end. I have trouble seeing how Littlefinger chooses any course of action other than Sansa+Aegon (see here). It's way too obvious and sensible a move for him for me to think he's likely to pass it up. Plus I think it's pretty likely Aegon will sit the Iron Throne by the end of the next book, which means Cersei will be cast down and whoever Aegon's bride is will be the Younger Queen. Nobody makes much sense in that role but Sansa.

I have a tough time seeing how Cersei stays in power until Dany shows up. Dany isn't showing up for a good while and the Lannister hold on the throne will probably be undone by the time she finally decides to show up.

Jaime and Cersei will die at each other's hands, together, the way they came into the world. There really is no other way their stories can end. Tyrion I'm not so sure about, but I think he'll be alive at the end. Maybe a king.

Sure there is - Jaime could end up the 1000th LC :) Joining the NW is probably one of only two ways he can survive Dany - the other being Jaime as dragonrider. Don't think he's actually likely to be the third head of course, but it would be delicious to see Dany's reaction to the guy who killed dear old daddy being one of her dragonriders... :devil:

[Daemrion]

I think that 'Aegon' has to die in TWOW to make way for Dany. We don't want the guy who comes out of nowhere in Book 5 of 7 to end up on the throne that all the main characters have been bickering for for all 7 books. The real protagonists in the story were all introduced in Book 1 not Book 5. I loathe the whole 'Aegon' story more than I ever hate Dany (and I've hated her since AGOT) and that's saying a lot.

[Kadence]

I think that 'Aegon' has to die in TWOW to make way for Dany. We don't want the guy who comes out of nowhere in Book 5 of 7 to end up on the throne that all the main characters have been bickering for for all 7 books. The real protagonists in the story were all introduced in Book 1 not Book 5. I loathe the whole 'Aegon' story more than I ever hate Dany (and I've hated her since AGOT) and that's saying a lot.

Dany has to slay some lies regarding the mummer's dragon (has to be his parentage) so Aegon can't die before Dany does this. And I think he's got too much in is favor to lose to the Lannisters and Tyrells. I'm pretty confident that if he doesn't win the Iron Throne by the end of Winds of Winter, he'll do it early in the book after that. But most likely Aegon sitting the Iron Throne is what the end of Winds will be about. I see the Aegon plotline moving at

! :)

if Dany wanted the throne so bad she should have moved quicker. Some Blackfyre blooded punk is gonna beat her to the Iron Throne without any dragons at all, how embarassing :) Of course I actually liked Dany's decision to try and rule rather than just conquer, I thought it showed maturity - unfortunately she botched things pretty badly. But her allies will probably bail her out and beat her enemies for her while she's not even around.

Many dislike the Aegon reveal, but I suspect most of those readers will end up loving Aegon's rise to power because of how fast it will move and the twists it takes. I think LF will arrange Sansa+Aegon, but I think this will come as a shocking swerve to most readers - and I think Queen Sansa if it happens will be a very satisfying swerve for the great majority of readers. Compared to the slow pace of books 4 and 5 Aegon's meteoric rise will be pretty thrilling and be remiscent of the pace of Storm.

Plus Connington is a real interesting character. I'm also eagerly anticipating his reaction when he finds out the truth about Aegon, though that probably won't be until book 7. This is a guy whose greatest regret is not burning a town to the ground, so when he finds out about Aegon I expect things to get ugly. I also hope he lives long enough to find out about Jon, just imagine how bittersweet that would be for him - he finds out he wasted all those years on the wrong kid, but at least Rhaeghar really did have a son. Not sure he'll live long enough to learn about Jon though.

[3CityApache]

Very nice post Raksha the Demon, I agree with your thoughts on Tyrion.

I laughed at defenestrating :D But I think the Jaime who did that is gone, he's a different man now. And of course I highly doubt he would have carried out the threat to Edmure's child.

Exactly, I'm positive he wouldn't. It was even hard for him to make it said. It was his last chance to persuade Edmure to give in, and he just kind of took advantage of his own dark reputation, with no means of really carrying out the threat whatsoever.

But generally I agree Jaime must die somewhere along the way, possibly in a stupid and unnecessary way. I'm not sure about Cersei though, as it's just becoming too obvious (her being on a brink of selfdestruction for so long). And Tyrion's fate is a mystery for me (takin' into account that GRRM has a definite soft spot for him).

[Tupper of the Golden Vale]

I've seen a lot of interesting points here and there.

As for the Lannister siblings knack for evil I think Cersei would be everyone's first choice. She has in my opinion committed or been involved with most of the atrocities in the books that Lannisters are famous for. Examples include having Robert's bastard (the baby that he had by the prostitute) killed, her manipulation of Sansa etc. When your driven by a sort of bitter penis envy and intense narcissism there ain't no room for goodness in your heart.

I do not think that she feels any remorse for her treatment of Sansa primarily because I believe that she thought everything she did was right since her biggest motivation was reservation of her family. Any hints that she might have felt guilty about Sansa is probably her seeing a bit of herself in Sansa.

Jaime- At the start of the series (AGOT) Jaime was definitely not a nice guy. Throwing kids out of windows and such. as the series progresses though I think his character changed for the better. I don't think it was a complete change but I think he's getting there. It seems to me that he's developing a distaste for his family (throwing Cersei's letter away and whatever his opinion on Tyrion may now be now that he thinks that Tyrion is responsible for Jofferey and taking into consideration that Tyrion killed their pops)

Tyrion- I agree that Tyrion is much less likable in DWD. His constant moping while understandable can make one wary and his witticisms seem now much cruder without his trademark charm. I do think that he will get his audience with Dany and what happens after that is anyone's guess. Is he evil? Nah. is he a complete A-hole? Yessir. Can he be better? He's had plenty of chances to be good and not just reasonable.

As for Tommen and Mrycella (did I get that spelling right?), i think they are done for. Mrycella is in a den of snakes (Get it? Get it?) and Tommen is basically an outlet for whoever sits on the council. With the death of Kevan at the end of DWD the Tyrells are pretty much up there (though there is still Varys) while Mrycella is in the hands of the Martells.

(first post btw, did i do good?)

[BrosBeforeSnows]

1. As much as I dislike Jaime - I don't think he's dead and I don't think his part in the narrative is complete either - We still have that dream vision of Bran's where he sees Sansa and Arya surrounded by the looming giant and the Hound and a golden man - I'm assuming that the Golden man is Jaime and maybe he will be the one to take down unGregor, which would be kinda sweet given that Gregor is Cersei's champion and will probably become her personal bodyguard next.

I'm guessing Brienne will probably save Jaime before she leads him all the way to Stoneheart, just as he saved her from Vargo Hoat.

And, I like this idea that he'll destroy the unGregor monster Qyburn has created. However, I've always thought the stone giant in Bran's dream could be Tyrion. Shae always called him her "Giant of Lannister", and the stone armor could be an analogy for Casterly Rock. The face of black blood could be a reference to his missing nose and hideous facial scars. If that's the case, I read that as meaning Tyrion may eventually inherit Casterly Rock before its all over, and he could play an even bigger role in Sansa's life by the end of the series than he already has. Jaime will probably kill Cersei, and be the valonqar, but Tyrion might kill Jaime (for the whole Tysha thing; a wound that seems to be festering the more he thinks about it).

[the Scorpion Knight]

here's my guesses (just for the start of TWoW)

-cersei will stay in KL but maybe she'll arrange that tommen, marg, her cousins and the hostages are out of there(may be the vale

- jaime will be the next leader of the BWB (and will hold hostage the freys of riverrun to release the northern hosteges)

- tyrion will tell dany that aegon is alive and kicking in westeros and help her tame the other dragon(why am I seeing him with Vic being good friends)

[1234567]

Really hope Tommen and Myrcella survive. Especially Tommen and his kittens. Sure not even GRRM would kill the kittens...

There was a little Princess who owned a black kitten.....she didn't fair very well.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Just some thoughts:

1. I agree that Dany is not necessarily the "younger, more beautiful queen" from the prophecy. I think that whole thing is a double bluff: one on Cersei, who thinks it's Margaery, and one on the readers, who are led to think it's Dany. As to whom it REALLY is, I don't know.

2. I still think both Tommen and Myrcella are goners, as much as I like them. They're good kids, miraculously. However, Myrcella doesn't need to be monarch-crowned in order to fit the prophecy. "Golden will be their crowns" could refer to monarchal crowns, or to their golden hair. If you look at it as having a dual meaning, Myrcella's golden hair could also fit the prophecy.

3. I still think Jamie is the valonqar, which leads me to ...

4. I don't think Jamie is dead. Will he end up that way? Yes I really think so. Is he now? No.

5. I don't think Tyrion has turned evil; I think he's fed up, tired of being taken advantage of, and thinks he has nothing to lose.

[brashcandy]

I'm guessing Brienne will probably save Jaime before she leads him all the way to Stoneheart, just as he saved her from Vargo Hoat.

And, I like this idea that he'll destroy the unGregor monster Qyburn has created. However, I've always thought the stone giant in Bran's dream could be Tyrion. Shae always called him her "Giant of Lannister", and the stone armor could be an analogy for Casterly Rock. The face of black blood could be a reference to his missing nose and hideous facial scars. If that's the case, I read that as meaning Tyrion may eventually inherit Casterly Rock before its all over, and he could play an even bigger role in Sansa's life by the end of the series than he already has. Jaime will probably kill Cersei, and be the valonqar, but Tyrion might kill Jaime (for the whole Tysha thing; a wound that seems to be festering the more he thinks about it).

Hmm, it's an interesting theory on Tyrion, but those would be some be some real twists to make him be the giant :) and i don't think he would necessarily be threatening to both Sansa and Arya unless he really takes a dark, dark turn.

He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was as dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

Ok so this is Bran's dream vision and what is interesting here to me is that Ned is mentioned as well. Now, we could argue that his part in the tale is over so Bran is kinda seeing past/present/future all together, which would make sense as to the first images of everyone in distress at Kings Landing. But then we have the description of the two shadows that surround them. One is obviously a reference to Sandor, unless this is where we see the Hound's lost helm coming into play, and it isn't Sandor at all, but rather a definitely more dangerous force in his helm.

i've always thought that the reference to the shadow armored like the sun and golden and beautiful was Jaime and i'm hardpressed to think of another character who this could refer to. Now, we know that when last we saw Jaime he was following Brienne after she told him the Hound had Sansa... so is he going to fight the Hound imposter, who isn't Sandor?... will the fight be one in the future at the Vale or will the shadow of ash (as really Sandor) and the golden shadow be working together to fight the Giant armored in stone?

We know of the theory that the Stone giant might not be Gregor, and as you said it could be Tyrion and i've seen the theories that it could be someone stricken by greyscale or it could be Littlefinger as the Titan of Braavos. i'm kinda feeling the latter option as something that might be the best surprise, and Littlefinger has been a "giant" in terms of his impact on all the events in the series and it would fit into why Bran sees Ned in the dream since we know LF betrayed Ned. And where LF is originally from, the Fingers, is very rocky and stony. The only problem is why LF would be wearing a visor and why it would be filled wth blood. Again this part strongly suggests Gregorstein and no one else.

[Faint]

I think Cersei's continued story the most predictable of the three, with continued blunders, tragic mistakes of judgment, and so on, culminating with Daenerys arriving and Jaime ending her life. The particulars, in this respect, mean very little with the general outlines so discernible. Still, I'm expecting first Tommen, then Myrcella to meet grisly ends, the Lannisters to cling to power, and Cersei's continued misreading of the prophecy (i.e., Tyrion instead of Jaime, and Margaery, Sansa, and possibly even Arianne (if she marries "Aegon") instead of Daenerys).

With Jaime, I have only speculation as to what he will do between now and when he'll kill Cersei. That means, though, that he will be surviving his current predicament. My best guess is that Catelyn will task him with finding and retrieving Sansa and hold Brienne hostage (having now learned just how much Brienne means to him). Brienne, meanwhile, will assume POV status for the doings of the Brotherhood Without Banners. As for Jaime, my idle speculation has him being successful in his quest, tracking Sansa to the Vale and having to combat Robert Strong once there, the latter being sent to assassinate Sansa on the orders of Cersei (who will have found out about Sansa's location as well and mistakenly identified her as the latest candidate for who the "younger queen" is -- Margaery being possibly dead at this point). In any case, this will eventually lead to Jaime being free to return to King's Landing at which point he can finish off Maggy the Frog's prophecy. There are a lot of possibilities here but I don't know what to make of Jaime's future subsequent to him strangling Cersei, if he even has a future. I think a lot depends on how influential Tyrion is at that point and whether Daenerys and Jon have met yet.

Now Tyrion, he's the interesting one, because on the subject of him I have no clue. He's also very hard to predict because he is clearly the author's favorite character so that my inclinations on him are probably wrong (I imagine he'll find a lot softer landing than seems reasonable under the circumstances). If I had to take a wild stab at it, I'd think he'd join up with Daenerys, serve as her advisor in some capacity, help with the dragons and with the conquest, then play a vital role against the Others somehow. I don't know about him being a Targaryen and/or the third head of the dragon, but it wouldn't shock me at this point (the possibility is hinted at, after all). He'll probably be instrumental in exposing "Aegon," having several key pieces of information in hand already. As for his end? How about this: He becomes the 1000th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, with Jorah Mormont as the First Ranger.

[Tagganaro]

Great topic.

1. I don't think Cersei necessarily changed much from pre-POV to POV over the course of the books. We just don't really get much of a look at her mental composition beforehand, but we still see she's a vindictive, petty stonecold character capable of extreme acts of cruelty. Add to that the events of ASOS- Her beloved son getting killed right before her eyes and her father who she always relied on getting killed as well, both getting killed from her POV by the twisted monster who also killed her mother. It's enough to make anyone extremely paranoid, add to that the inherent cruel streak and general arrogance of Cersei and you have a bad combination.

2. I don't see Tyrion as evil at all, though he certainly strayed very close to that line at points in ADWD. He's just someone who's had a lot of awful stuff happen to him throughout his life, and for him to be framed for killing his nephew and then on top of that to find out that the love of his life who he thought was a whore wasn't a whore, while simultaneously finding out that the girl he was in love with was just a whore puts him in a serious state of shock and denial in ADWD. I also don't really understand how the threat to rape Tommen can be used to say Tyrion is evil. It's because Tyrion has excessive compassion for Alalaya that he even makes the threat, and we know that he has absolutely no intention of ever following through on it. As for Myrcella, the Lannisters thought they needed Dorne. Even Tywin was more than understanding of it and admitted he probably would have done the same thing to try and secure Dorne to the Lannister cause.

3. While the info does seem to indicate that Jaime is dead and he has fulfilled his narrative purpose, 2 things really necessitate against him being dead imo. First, I think it would just be cheap and somewhat offensive to have Jaime killed offscreen. We've spent a lot of time witnessing the developing relationship between Jaime and Brienne. It would kind of go against that and make it a little pointless to just have Brienne kill Jaime suddenly offscreen. Secondly, and more importantly, there's 2 or 3 prophecies indicating Jaime will be alive for a while longer. One, while not a legitimate prophecy, is Cersei's contention that Jaime wouldn't leave the world without her and she would know if he did. It just seems like something that Cersei would be right about based on what we know. Second, we have Bran's dream about the Golden man, and we have Jaime's pretty sincere commitment to actually follow through on his oath to Catelyn to bring Sansa to safety. Third, we have Jaime's Azor Azai type dream. I guess he could die even if we are to take that dream as true, and then be reborn as Unjaime. But still, I don't think Jaime is dead yet.

[Alexia]

Not only did he threaten to rape them, its heavily implied he would have had tommen scourged, had he been able to.:

""I promised my sister I would treat Tommen as she treated Alayaya," he remembered aloud. He felt as though he might retch. "How can I scourge an eight-year-old boy?" But if I don’t, Cersei wins. ...

Another blow; yet a relief as well, he must admit it. He was fond of Tommen."

I also don't really understand how the threat to rape Tommen can be used to say Tyrion is evil. It's because Tyrion has excessive compassion for Alalaya that he even makes the threat, and we know that he has absolutely no intention of ever following through on it.

I have much and more to respond to, much and more to do, and probably won't be able to respond at length in the thread until later this evening. But Tagganaro... does he have no intention following through on it? I don't think we know that, at all. In fact, I think the text (so graciously quoted above by Average Cheese) supports the notion that Tyrion would have had Tommen scourged, had Tywin not (thankfully) removed Tommen from Tyrion's custody.

At the very least, Tyrion himself was strongly considering it. But if I don't, Cersei wins. :stillsick: Given that Tommen is a prince, and that Tywin would explode, it would have been stupid in the extreme to do it. But Tyrion was not feeling sick over Alayaya's treatment in that scene, he is feeling sick because he is considering scourging a child in a game of cat and mouse with the mother.

Black Amethyst, I see your post and I promise you a response later today!

[Tagganaro]

I have much and more to respond to, much and more to do, and probably won't be able to respond at length in the thread until later this evening. But Tagganaro... does he have no intention following through on it? I don't think we know that, at all. In fact, I think the text (so graciously quoted above by Average Cheese) supports the notion that Tyrion would have had Tommen scourged, had Tywin not (thankfully) removed Tommen from Tyrion's custody.

At the very least, Tyrion himself was strongly considering it. But if I don't, Cersei wins. :stillsick: Given that Tommen is a prince, and that Tywin would explode, it would have been stupid in the extreme to do it. But Tyrion was not feeling sick over Alayaya's treatment in that scene, he is feeling sick because he is considering scourging a child in a game of cat and mouse with the mother.

Black Amethyst, I see your post and I promise you a response later today!

I have to disagree with this, although I see your point. Tyrion also thinks something along the lines of "Cersei thinks I'm a monster. I might as well play the role" (I'm paraphrasing, I don't have the exact text on me). This suggests that Tyrion is in fact acting and would never follow through on his threat.

In addition, Tyrion is clearly disturbed by Alalaya's treatment. He does think back on it several times, including a time where he thinks something along the lines of "She did nothing wrong, just an innocent bystander, who was smart and courageous" (again, paraphrasing lol).

We also know that out of all his family members, Tyrion is rather fond of Tommen and says so several times. I will look through the text now and edit this post with the actual text which I think clearly shows that Tyrion never intended to actually follow through with this.