145 replies to this topic

[The Shy Wolf]

Perhaps she said 'Oath'. A lot of Brienne's storyline is involved with oaths: the Rainbow Guard, her oath to Lady Catelyn and her oath to Jaime.

[Daughter of Dragons]

Wentwarth, on 29 September 2011 - 12:34 PM, said:

I'm sure it was "sword". ADWD spoilers:

Spoiler

She was given only two options:



Sword = Brienne is an oathkeeper = she will go and get Jaime. Which is what we know she did. And those three words weren't featured heavily in the first version of her last AFFC chapter, but were repeated again and again in the final version:

The Brotherhood knows as much about what happened to her as Brienne does. Sandor kidnapped her from them and the two of them had the fight with Polliver, the Tickler and the squire at their inn. What can Brienne tell them on top of that? "After they left, the Hound's wound got infected, Arya left in unknown direction and he died"? I really don't see how that would save anyone's neck.

What you suggest is possible, however, I just don't think that she would have taken that sword and swore an oath to Cat that she knew to be in the wrong. For me, my reservations about it stem from the fact that it would go against everything we know about Brienne. I don't think that she would kill Jaime just to save her own life. I also am not so sure that she would even lie to Cat in an effort to save her life. If it turns out that she did, however, it would most likely be because she wished to save Podrick and she found it to be the lesser of two evils.
We actually see Brienne repeat over and over again how much she is disturbed by the fact that Jaime broke his oaths. She was always badgering him over his oathbreaking. She couldn't understand breaking your words in any situation. We see that when Jaime tries to justify killing the king. Jaime picked up on the importance she felt toward the giving of her word and how much it meant to her. He gave her the sword that is called Oath Keeper. The Brotherhood may know or think they know as much as Brienne does about Arya. However, it doesn't mean that if Brienne claimed to know where either of Cat's daughters were she would kill her anyway. It just makes more sense to me that she said something that would have stirred Cat to release her and "sword", wouldn't or couldn't do that.
Also, I don't think that Brienne knew that they had seen Arya. If that was the case and she claimed to have info on them then it's possible that Cat would have listened for hopes sake.    

Edited by Daughter of Dragons, 29 September 2011 - 01:14 PM.

[Shaggydog Stark]

She could have said "Ice", afterall they tell her to make a choice noose or sword. Instead of saying sword or Oathkeeper she calls it by its real name. Oathkeeper means nothing to Catelyn but Ice means Ned and Winterfell.

[Gray Ghost]

Shaggydog Stark, on 29 September 2011 - 01:19 PM, said:

She could have said "Ice", afterall they tell her to make a choice noose or sword. Instead of saying sword or Oathkeeper she calls it by its real name. Oathkeeper means nothing to Catelyn but Ice means Ned and Winterfell.

I like this idea especially because even though this word (Ice) may not be the correct guess, I think everyone knows that the word will be related to something that everyone is expecting, but will have more of a character-specific origin.  For instance, like you mentioned, she may yell "Ice" in place of the often referenced "sword."  However, I still think that her word will be related to one or both of Cat's daughters, and not the sword.

[Eggplant Wizard]

Sword or Arya makes the most sense to me. Although, another poster made a good point. The Brotherhood thinks Sandor is dead and it isn't like Brienne really knows where Arya is any more than they do.

[Daughter of Dragons]

Shaggydog Stark, on 29 September 2011 - 01:19 PM, said:

She could have said "Ice", afterall they tell her to make a choice noose or sword. Instead of saying sword or Oathkeeper she calls it by its real name. Oathkeeper means nothing to Catelyn but Ice means Ned and Winterfell.

I had thought of this as well, but hesitated to post it. I wanted to see if someone else thought it was possible. It could be the truth. Brienne knows that the sword was made from Ned's. Catelyn did express to Brienne one time about how upset she was because she hadn't been returned Ned's body and his sword "Ice". Thats very possible. If Cat had to turn her thoughts toward Ned, then she might have felt some guilt over her actions as well. You made an excellent point!  

[Nausicaä]

Daughter of Dragons, on 29 September 2011 - 01:07 PM, said:

What you suggest is possible, however, I just don't think that she would have taken that sword and swore an oath to Cat that she knew to be in the wrong.

It's not about swearing a new oath, it's about keeping an old one.

Daughter of Dragons, on 29 September 2011 - 01:07 PM, said:

For me, my reservations about it stem from the fact that it would go against everything we know about Brienne. I don't think that she would kill Jaime just to save her own life. I also am not so sure that she would even lie to Cat in an effort to save her life. If it turns out that she did, however, it would most likely be because she wished to save Podrick and she found it to be the lesser of two evils.

Well, it's quite obvious that getting Pod out of the noose was her motivation for screaming... Brienne was resigned to her own death and even tried to save him by asking that he delivers her bones to her father. Then she saw him dying and couldn't not try to save him.

Daughter of Dragons, on 29 September 2011 - 01:07 PM, said:

We actually see Brienne repeat over and over again how much she is disturbed by the fact that Jaime broke his oaths. She was always badgering him over his oathbreaking. She couldn't understand breaking your words in any situation. We see that when Jaime tries to justify killing the king. Jaime picked up on the importance she felt toward the giving of her word and how much it meant to her. He gave her the sword that is called Oath Keeper.

I'm not sure I understand you. She wouldn't be breaking any oaths by killing Jaime, she would be doing her duty as Catelyn's sworn sword and proving herself an oathkeeper.

Daughter of Dragons, on 29 September 2011 - 01:07 PM, said:

The Brotherhood may know or think they know as much as Brienne does about Arya. However, it doesn't mean that if Brienne claimed to know where either of Cat's daughters were she would kill her anyway. It just makes more sense to me that she said something that would have stirred Cat to release her and "sword", wouldn't or couldn't do that.
Also, I don't think that Brienne knew that they had seen Arya. If that was the case and she claimed to have info on them then it's possible that Cat would have listened for hopes sake.

But they already talked about her search in the cave and she said nothing about having that information. While they were walking to the trees she said everything she could to save Podrick (please, send him to the Evenfall Hall, they will pay you with gold, sapphires, etc.), but not that she knows where Lady Catelyn's daughters are. If she suddenly starts singing that song, to them it will be clear as day why she started doing it. And we don't even know that UnCat is there to stop the hanging. Whatever she said needs to be something that all outlaws present would cut her loose for. And she was explicitly told that choosing "sword" (= being an oathkeeper = getting Jaime on her lady's orders) is such a thing.

Edited by Wentwarth, 29 September 2011 - 01:48 PM.

[H.T. Lannister]

headtrip_honey, on 29 September 2011 - 11:19 AM, said:

If the word wasn't important, GRRM prolly would have printed it. If it was just "Wait," why not print it?

There'd still be cliffhanger tension over WHY she said "wait."

It may not be as dramatic as some suggestions, but I'll wager it's more than "wait."

He wouldn't have included the actual word "wait" because he wants readers to speculate...which you guys are doing. I'm not saying you're not right, you very well may be    but  I expect this to prove to be much ado about nothing.

measter Marto, on 29 September 2011 - 11:29 AM, said:

I actually agree – the word wasn’t that important imo. Maybe GRRM didn’t print it, because he didn’t want us to have any idea about the outcome of that situation. Even an insignificant word, such as “wait”, would suggest that Brienne is ready to make a deal with Uncat. And GRRM didn’t want us to know that.

Bullseye.

[Errant Bard]

Daughter of Dragons (or others): Question (ADWD spoilers):

Spoiler

What's your explanation for Brienne doing exactly what "sword" means: getting Jaime Lannister alone if she doesn't yell "sword"?

She says "yabadabadoo", they let her down, then she says: "no, seriously, I was fucking with you, I'll do exactly what you asked when you told me to choose between sword and noose, I'll go get Jaime Lannister"?

[Shaggydog Stark]

Gray Ghost, on 29 September 2011 - 01:24 PM, said:

I like this idea especially because even though this word (Ice) may not be the correct guess, I think everyone knows that the word will be related to something that everyone is expecting, but will have more of a character-specific origin.  For instance, like you mentioned, she may yell "Ice" in place of the often referenced "sword."  However, I still think that her word will be related to one or both of Cat's daughters, and not the sword.

You are probably right, but still she could have ....

Daughter of Dragons, on 29 September 2011 - 01:30 PM, said:

I had thought of this as well, but hesitated to post it. I wanted to see if someone else thought it was possible. It could be the truth. Brienne knows that the sword was made from Ned's. Catelyn did express to Brienne one time about how upset she was because she hadn't been returned Ned's body and his sword "Ice". Thats very possible. If Cat had to turn her thoughts toward Ned, then she might have felt some guilt over her actions as well. You made an excellent point!  

Well honestly I got the idea after reading your posts. You are so convinced that the word had to mean something to make Un-Cat basically snap back into Cat long enough for Brienne to live. You made a very persuasive argument. I am convinced you are right, the word had to mean something to her. Cat is still in the cave while Brienne/Pod/Hyle and the BWB are outside by the trees not a long distance away from the mouth of the cave. She screams her last basically to make sure Un-Cat hears her inside her cave. So obviously the word is something that has to affect Cat.

Someone said she screamed sapphires. I don't think so because she already made offers of gold and sapphires and it didn't work. Whether its "Ice" or something else, it had to mean something to Cat.

[H.T. Lannister]

Errant Bard, on 29 September 2011 - 02:05 PM, said:

Daughter of Dragons (or others): Question (ADWD spoilers):

Spoiler

What's your explanation for Brienne doing exactly what "sword" means: getting Jaime Lannister alone if she doesn't yell "sword"?

She says "yabadabadoo", they let her down, then she says: "no, seriously, I was fucking with you, I'll do exactly what you asked when you told me to choose between sword and noose, I'll go get Jaime Lannister"?

Doesn't she already know what "sword" means? Wasn't it spelled out for her before they hung her up? After all, how could she refuse Cat if she wasn't informed of the request/task itself? Think about it.

Edited by H.T. Lannister, 29 September 2011 - 02:24 PM.

[Errant Bard]

H.T. Lannister, on 29 September 2011 - 02:24 PM, said:

Doesn't she already know what "sword" means? Wasn't it spelled out for her before they hung her up? After all, how could she refuse Cat if she wasn't informed of the request/task itself? Think about it.

I don't understand what you mean or how it relates to my question, could you reformulate?

[George Snow]

Wentwarth, on 29 September 2011 - 01:45 PM, said:

It's not about swearing a new oath, it's about keeping an old one.


Well, it's quite obvious that getting Pod out of the noose was her motivation for screaming... Brienne was resigned to her own death and even tried to save him by asking that he delivers her bones to her father. Then she saw him dying and couldn't not try to save him.



I'm not sure I understand you. She wouldn't be breaking any oaths by killing Jaime, she would be doing her duty as Catelyn's sworn sword and proving herself an oathkeeper.


But they already talked about her search in the cave and she said nothing about having that information. While they were walking to the trees she said everything she could to save Podrick (please, send him to the Evenfall Hall, they will pay you with gold, sapphires, etc.), but not that she knows where Lady Catelyn's daughters are. If she suddenly starts singing that song, to them it will be clear as day why she started doing it. And we don't even know that UnCat is there to stop the hanging. Whatever she said needs to be something that all outlaws present would cut her loose for. And she was explicitly told that choosing "sword" (= being an oathkeeper = getting Jaime on her lady's orders) is such a thing.

While she knows what "Sword" means.  It is possible that she will say it, but not do it exactly like unCat wants her to do it.

I think she will get Jaime, and then make him go on the quest with her to find Arya/Sansa.  That way she will be fulfilling her oath of trading Jaime for the girls in a way that preserves her honor.

And, right now, Jaime doesn't have much choice, because he's not as good left-handed as Brienne is right-handed.

GH

[H.T. Lannister]

Errant Bard, on 29 September 2011 - 02:41 PM, said:

I don't understand what you mean or how it relates to my question, could you reformulate?

No problem   maybe it was I that misunderstood your question. It seemed to me that you implied that Brienne didn't already know what "sword" stood for. Cat (by way of proxy) told Brienne "we'll kill the Boltons and Freys; what I want from you is Jaime Lannister."  She knew exactly what they wanted. Agreeing to it went against her honor (and more realistically, her growing feelings for the Kingslayer), but she agreed so Pod would be spared. There's no specific word she would have had to say. Simply calling for them to halt the hanging would have sufficed.

[Daughter of Dragons]

George Snow, on 29 September 2011 - 02:48 PM, said:

While she knows what "Sword" means.  It is possible that she will say it, but not do it exactly like unCat wants her to do it.

I think she will get Jaime, and then make him go on the quest with her to find Arya/Sansa.  That way she will be fulfilling her oath of trading Jaime for the girls in a way that preserves her honor.

And, right now, Jaime doesn't have much choice, because he's not as good left-handed as Brienne is right-handed.

GH

I think that you could be right. If she agreed to go to Jaime on behalf of her oath to Cat, then she would do it in way so that she will not go against her honor. If she did agree and said "Sword" or "Ice" then she most likely did it on Podrick's behalf. However, I don't think that she would just kill Jaime to save herself. She doesn't have that in her character.

I also want to point out that I wasn't trying to say that she would be swearing a new oath. I meant that she knows, though Cat hasn't cared to find out, that Jaime had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that she didn't bring back her daughters. He had every intention of ensuring that she got them back. Upon Brienne's departure from KL Jaime gave her the sword that he had made from Ice and wished her luck on the search. She did make an oath with Cat to take Jaime Lannister safely back to KL and to bring her daughters to Cat. As fate would have it, they were no longer there and she also had not refrained from searching for them until then. She continued looking for them even after Cat's death, which would usually release her from it. Her oath was to take Jaime to KL and bring her daughters back once she had them. It never said that she had to kill him, even if she wasn't given the girls. Once she had them, she was to return to River Run with them. She had not returned to River Run because she was still in search of them. I don't see how that killing him would fulfill her oath, but I could always be wrong. This is just me personal interpretation.

Also, I just wanted to say forgive my unclarity about the oath. I was not saying that she swore Jaime an oath, but only that to her, killing him would have been something that she would not have wanted to do. They had become pretty close during their journey and she knew that he was not to blame for Cat's daughters not being in the city.
I was not trying to say that the word Brienne said aloud was a word that would awaken a part of Cat's former (living) self. I'm not so sure that would be possible. I just meant that if she wanted to convince Cat that she be released that ,because of the undead status, she had to say something that would get through to her. All Cat came back with was anger and revenge.  
  

Edited by Xray the Enforcer, 30 September 2011 - 05:05 AM.

[Nausicaä]

George Snow, on 29 September 2011 - 02:48 PM, said:

While she knows what "Sword" means.  It is possible that she will say it, but not do it exactly like unCat wants her to do it.

I think she will get Jaime, and then make him go on the quest with her to find Arya/Sansa.  That way she will be fulfilling her oath of trading Jaime for the girls in a way that preserves her honor.

And, right now, Jaime doesn't have much choice, because he's not as good left-handed as Brienne is right-handed.

GH

I'm just arguing the word, I don't think she will do exactly what UnCat wants her to do either. But Brienne is presented with a choice, she can either keep her oath and honor and do the right thing by saving the innocent boy or she can become an oathbreaker and die with Pod, letting the man that she loves and doesn't think deserves death live. Of course, there's also a third option — lie about her choice and try to save both Pod and Jaime  — but by choosing it, she also becomes an oathbreaker, just like Jaime did when he chose to do the right thing by killing Aerys. In any case, she must choose, it doesn't make much sense for her to be spared that choice by the author. If she says "Stannis" and UnCat lets her go, or says "Sandor"/"Blackfish" and is rescued, or says "Arya"/"Sansa"/"Ice"/something else and is allowed not to make the hard decision, it would be a little anticlimatic now. She must have chosen something and it obviously wasn't the noose.

I realize that we don't actually disagree completely, btw, I'm just explaining my point further.

Daughter of Dragons, on 29 September 2011 - 03:59 PM, said:

I don't see how that killing him would fulfill her oath, but I could always be wrong. This is just me personal interpretation.

Daughter of Dragons, on 29 September 2011 - 03:59 PM, said:

I think that you could be right. If she agreed to go to Jaime on behalf of her oath to Cat, then she would do it in way so that she will not go against her honor.

We are just misunderstanding each other, the oath I mean is the one that Brienne swore when Catelyn took her into her service.

Quote

I am yours, my lady. Your liege man, or… whatever you would have me be. I will shield your back and keep your counsel and give my life for yours, if need be. I swear it by the old gods and the new.

What UnCat would have her be is Jaime's killer and Brienne has to follow her orders. If she refuses, she becomes an oathbreaker. It would be hard, almost impossible for her to both keep her honor and do the right thing.

I mean, I'm all for Jaime and Brienne going Sansa searching like George Snow suggested, but they can't do it while UnCat has Pod... They just don't have time to go to the Vale, find Sansa, gain her trust, convince her to go with them, flee the Vale, find UnCat again and go "Here, we brought your daughter back!" at which point UnCat will realize that Jaime meant to return her daughters all along and take her orders back, allowing Brienne not to kill Jaime and keep her honor at the same time. If Brienne doesn't come back with Jaime as soon as possible, Pod will most likely be hanged. I do think that Jaime and Brienne will get to Sansa eventually, but it would have to be after the Pod situation is resolved. If that makes any sense.

Edited by Wentwarth, 29 September 2011 - 04:52 PM.

[Errant Bard]

H.T. Lannister, on 29 September 2011 - 02:50 PM, said:

No problem   maybe it was I that misunderstood your question. It seemed to me that you implied that Brienne didn't already know what "sword" stood for. Cat (by way of proxy) told Brienne "we'll kill the Boltons and Freys; what I want from you is Jaime Lannister."  She knew exactly what they wanted. Agreeing to it went against her honor (and more realistically, her growing feelings for the Kingslayer), but she agreed so Pod would be spared. There's no specific word she would have had to say. Simply calling for them to halt the hanging would have sufficed.

No, what I meant is that :

Spoiler

• Brienne knows what sword means: it means getting Jaime Lannister (as pointed to her "She says that you must choose. Take the sword and slay the Kingslayer, or be hanged for a betrayer. The sword or the noose, she says. Choose, she says. Choose.")
  
• Brienne shouts something.
  
• Brienne is not left hanging and does go get Jaime Lannister alone

So how does that last action mesh with shouting any other word? She shouts Arya, why isn't she on her way to Saltpans or something? She shouts Stannis, why not on her way to the North? Sansa/whatever other BS, why is she even lying to Jaime or talking to him instead of resuming her quest?

Maybe she shouted some random word, but in effect she's acting like if she screamed "sword". So why not just accept that she screamed sword? It avoids an hefty amount of non-sensical cruft.

And agreeing to take her sword actually does not go against honour: it's what honour dictates: to be loyal to your oaths. Brienne swore to be Catelyn's sword, to obey her and slay her enemies. She swore nothing to Jaime (and if she had, it would have made her a genuine oathbreaker with no honour, to start with.)

I remind you she despised Jaime for betraying Aerys, who she knows was raving mad, and for not fighting against his own father, that's what honour is. If you're not convinced, there's always Ned: he sees saving Sansa as dishonourable, because he ought to be supporting Stannis, but he loves Sansa... Same thing for Brienne: her love for Jaime never made supporting him honourable, or slaying him dishonourable.

Wentwarth, on 29 September 2011 - 04:51 PM, said:

I mean, I'm all for Jaime and Brienne going Sansa searching like George Snow suggested

It would actually raise the question of how she knows where Sansa is and why she needs Jaime Lannister. Also of how they manage to cross a country infested with BwB sympathizers without getting caught, all the while asking questions.

Edited by Errant Bard, 30 September 2011 - 12:49 AM.

[Cotter_Pyke]

I think it's some gurgling sound

[Daughter of Dragons]

My train of thought concerning the matter is this: We know that Brienne spoke a word. We also know the outcome of that situation. We have differing opinions, so it seems, as to what that word actually might have been. I did say from my first post on the topic that my mind was not set to one particular word, but rather, I had some ideas about the possibilities. I was looking for others thoughts on the matter, in actuality. I offered up the ideas that I had and I also began to consider other ideas, as well. In the following, I decided to share what ,if any, conclusions I have come to about the entire subject. This includes the word spoken, Brienne's intentions toward Jaime, and where the oath she swore fits in to this.

The One Word That Was Spoken
I think that there are several things mentioned that seem to fit here. She could have said "sword", "Ice", "honor", or  "the names of Cat's daughters". Not saying that these are right, just throwing some ideas out there. If I missed something that was also likely forgive me, please. I am just giving an overview.

Brienne's Oath To Cat
I think that I understand everyone who made a point about this topic. Hopefully, that is the fact of the matter and I do not misinterprete your meaning. If I have I am truly sorry.
I only have one question about this subject and I put it to you here, mainly because I know other people that have the same reservations.  
After reading these posts they had more questions than beforehand when it came to this particular detail.  
  
Some think that Brienne is bound by oath to Cat and because of that she will ,in the end, do what Cat asks of her. Now, I reread the oath and I am still coming up with a different opinion here.(Now this part is paraphrased) The oath says that she would protect her back, keep her counsel, and that Brienne would give her own life up in Cat's place if need be. When I saw this it basically says to me that Brienne promises to protect Cat from harm, be there for her to talk to in when needed, and that she would also die for Cat, in her place, if it was ever necessary. What is difficult with this is that it doesn't say that she asassinate a man based upon Cat's mere insistance. According to that oath she would be bound to kill Jaime if he had placed Cat in the way of harm or if he intended to do that. Since he never attempted to harm Catelyn, or as far as we know, intended to either how can this be put before Brienne as a part of her oath? Protecting her and being in her attendance to help her with tasks of her station/rank seem to be what Brienne swore to do. I'm certain that she never thought that she would have been put in such a precarious situation. I feel that had she thought this would happen she would never have swore her service to Catelyn. There had to be some code of honor in the certain situations where sworn swords were concerned. I, and others, have this same reservation about this. I just wanted to ask why this would be required by oath, given the situation.

Brienne's Intentions Toward Jamie
I considered everyone's theory here. I originally said that I think that she couldn't kill Jaime and if she did tell Cat that she would she would have been lying just to be released. I still believe part of that. While I still think that she couldn't/wouldn't kill Jaime, I do think that she possibly could have told them something they wanted to hear so that she could escape. I think it's also possible, like someone pointed out, that she could have just said whatever in an effort to save Podrick's life. Most of my reasoning in this matter is based on what I know of her character. She was much like the Starks when it came to her integrity and based on these things(integrity and personality) I can't say that she truly had intentions to kill Jaime just because Cat said that she had to. I think she would have hanged if she was the only person in that scenario, but she isn't. She may have told Cat that she would either kill Jaime or bring him to her, but even bringing him there and knowing the intent would have made her guilty in her own eyes. In that light I am leaning toward her letting Cat think that she would kill Jaime or bring him to her. Once she actually has him, who knows what they might do or where they will go? I won't guess that far ahead. I expect there to be some wrenches thrown in there somewhere when we actually read the rest of that story.
I just want to add that I've enjoyed everyone putting their two cents worth into this. It has definately been interesting. Also, thank everyone that offered explanations to me or anyone that posted.
  


  

Edited by Xray the Enforcer, 30 September 2011 - 05:06 AM.

[Daughter of Dragons]

Cotter_Pyke, on 30 September 2011 - 02:07 AM, said:

I think it's some gurgling sound

Based on the circumstances, thats very possible. Although, that would make for a strange word!!!




edited to add the forgotten smiley face!!!!

Edited by Xray the Enforcer, 30 September 2011 - 05:06 AM.