476 replies to this topic

[Nausicaä]

BrosBeforeSnows, on 02 October 2011 - 08:05 PM, said:

As for Margaery, she's definitely younger, but I don't recall anyone ever calling her more beautiful than Cersei. Sansa, however, might be prettier (if you consider the fact that Rhaegar snubbed Cersei for a Stark girl), but Dany is described as stunningly beautiful by everyone who sees her. Tales of her beauty have spread across the world, from the Iron Islands to Astapor. But, it seems a little too obvious for GRRM, so I wouldn't doubt your Sansa theory. It would be the perfect revenge.

Spoiler

We've never seen Dany described as stunningly beautiful by another POV, though, have we? I don't recall Quentyn thinking a lot about her looks, even though it would be natural for him to do so. Dany is beautiful, no doubt, but we don't have enough information to say just how much and how she compares to Cersei and Sansa, IMO. When Tyrion and Victarion finally see her we might get that.

[ARYa_Nym]

Wentwarth, I can't quote for some reason but I've seen the argument you've made before.

If you read this SSM:http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C91/

Under Naerys Targaryen it says that she and Dany resemble each other. Naerys is described as otherworldly. Rhaegar was described in a similar way. I got ethereal beauty from his descriptions. Cersei said that Rhaegar made Jaime look like a stable-boy.

[Jenny of Oldstones]

BrosBeforeSnows, on 02 October 2011 - 08:05 PM, said:

As for Margaery, she's definitely younger, but I don't recall anyone ever calling her more beautiful than Cersei.

The only person who assures us that Margaery is less attractive than Cersei is Cersei herself--hardly an unbiased source.  Given the slew of followers Marg has inspired I'm inclined to grant her more beauty than Cersei deems appropriate.

[Daenerys Faithful Servant]

Jenny of Oldstones, on 02 October 2011 - 10:31 PM, said:

The only person who assures us that Margaery is less attractive than Cersei is Cersei herself--hardly an unbiased source.  Given the slew of followers Marg has inspired I'm inclined to grant her more beauty than Cersei deems appropriate.

Which is terrible evidence as Cersei thought she was the Seven's gift to mankind in terms of beauty goes. Or at least

Spoiler

she did right up until she had to be naked, which I assume in a context thing as seems to me she would have been naked in the recent past enough to know how she actually looked before the walk of shame.

What we have with any of the younger Queens though (except for Myrcella and Shireen) is that they qualify has being more attractive, which isn't all that surprising given that amongst the other "Queens" Asha Greyjoy is the oldest, but still ten years younger than Cersei, has no children and kills men with her axes when needing to stay in shape.

[Lord_Debaka]

Cool. This idea just kinda came to me, so it's cool to see other people agree with me, and that people have thought it before I ever thought about it... Man I love these freaking books.

[ARYa_Nym]

Faithful Servant

I think Cersei started to let herself go when Joffrey and Tywin died. She didn't really take care of herself so she didn't age gracefully. In AGOT she still looked good. Ned was even distracted by it when he spoke to her in the godswood but he said that he hadn't seen her beauty in a long time. Her beauty is truly gone now.

[Été]

I actually think Dany is less likely than Margaery or Sansa. All three of them could qualify as "younger and more beautiful'; while beauty is subjective, Cersei's seems to be fading just as the three girls are coming into their prime.The queen in the prophecy takes away all that Cersei holds dear, i.e. her kids and Jaime. The only one that's been entirely taken from her at this point is Joffrey. Sansa supplied the information, and the plot was devised to protect Margaery. Dany had absolutely no role in the loss of Cersei's favourite child, which makes me think she's less likely to be the prophesied queen.

Spoiler

Meanwhile, Margaery has taken some of Tommen's loyalty. Cersei believes she's lost Jaime; the last she heard, he'd vanished, and we know that he's gone looking for Sansa.

Sansa's not a queen but she is head of House Stark (ostensibly), wife of the attainted lord of Casterly Rock and betrothed to the heir to the Vale, not to mention second in line to Riverrun for the time being. There's no way she'll realise all those titles, but she can claim quite a bit of nominal power: she could be used as a figurehead by bannermen in favour of restoring the old lords and bringing down the Frey-Bolton-Lannister axis. Or she could make a political marriage to a pretender and become a queen consort - or she could acquire some sort of sobriquet like the Queen of Thorns. The series isn't over.

Margaery is younger, more beautiful, a queen, and helped take Joff - but from a storytelling point of view, Sansa makes sense too. Cersei's one of the original villains and it would be very unsatisfying if her undoing is at the hands of a relatively minor character, or one who has little connection to her. Dany and Cersei haven't featured in each other's lives at all and their beef would be purely political. Margaery has plenty of reason to hate Cersei, and Sansa's destiny has been caught up with Cersei's from the start - right from the death of her wolf.

So... I vote Sansa, with Margaery as runner-up.

Edited by Été, 03 October 2011 - 07:56 AM.

[brashcandy]

Well since everything seems to happen in 3's perhaps Cersei will be cast down by three queens:
1. Margaery - already has taken some of Tommen's loyality and

Spoiler

probably somewhat responsible for Cersei's being imprisoned leading to the walk of shame

2. Sansa - indirectly responsible for Joff's death

Spoiler

may end up marrying Aegon and casting Cersei and Tommen out of KL

3. Daenerys  - she puts the final nail in the coffin as Rhaegar's sister. The ultimate beauty- the one with dragons, and real power that Cersei could never attain.
So lots of possibilities. In terms of beauty though, I think LF has noted that Sansa is only just coming into her looks. As she gets older I think we can expect her to completely outshine just about everyone (excluding Dany).

Edited by brashcandy, 03 October 2011 - 08:37 AM.

[Alexia]

brashcandy, on 03 October 2011 - 08:36 AM, said:

Well since everything seems to happen in 3's perhaps Cersei will be cast down by three queens:
1. Margaery - already has taken some of Tommen's loyality and

Spoiler

probably somewhat responsible for Cersei's being imprisoned leading to the walk of shame

Actually, Cersei tied all that directly to Ned and Sansa in her thoughts when it happened.  

Spoiler

She said that if only Joff had done as he was told (with respect to sending Ned to take the black) none of it would ever have happened.  Then she saw Sansa's accusing face in the crowds, beside Lady, and thought that she only ever meant to make her a good Lannister marriage to Lancel or one of his brothers.

I think it is growing more and more clear that Sansa is going to be the queen to cast Cersei down.  She'll either become Queen in the North through a marriage to Harrold (my personal guess... I think the kingdoms are going to divide again by the end), or Queen on the Iron Throne through marriage to a contender.

Sansa took Jaime, Joffrey, and Tywin from her... indirectly, but she still took them.  She also could be said to have turned Kevan against Cersei, because Kevan was very upset about Joffrey's treatment of her.  It'll be interesting in TWOW to see if she plays any sort of direct or indirect role in Cersei losing Tommen and/or Myrcella -- although I think Myrcella is going to survive the series.

But, I did feel that Myrcella's mutilation at the hands of her Martell in-laws was meant to parallel Sansa's abuse at the hands of her Lannister in-laws.  So there is a tie there -- a loose one, but it is there.

[Été]

Alexia, on 03 October 2011 - 08:46 AM, said:

Sansa took Jaime, Joffrey, and Tywin from her... indirectly, but she still took them.  She also could be said to have turned Kevan against Cersei, because Kevan was very upset about Joffrey's treatment of her.  It'll be interesting in TWOW to see if she plays any sort of direct or indirect role in Cersei losing Tommen and/or Myrcella -- although I think Myrcella is going to survive the series.

Tywin? How so?

[Alexia]

Été, on 03 October 2011 - 08:53 AM, said:

Tywin? How so?

Tywin was planning to force Cersei into marriage to get her away from Tommen, because he saw what a disaster she'd done with Joffrey.  He wasn't very happy about Joffrey's desire to make Sansa kiss her brother's severed head, and it is plain that he was in some agreement with Tyrion's estimation of "Aerys III."

Moreover, had Sansa not carried the poison into the wedding feast, which resulted in Joffrey's death and Tyrion's imprisonment and eventual release by Jaime (who thought Tyrion was innocent and Sansa guilty, at the time) with unfortunate information, Tywin would not have died.

[brashcandy]

Alexia, on 03 October 2011 - 08:46 AM, said:

Actually, Cersei tied all that directly to Ned and Sansa in her thoughts when it happened.  

Spoiler

She said that if only Joff had done as he was told (with respect to sending Ned to take the black) none of it would ever have happened.  Then she saw Sansa's accusing face in the crowds, beside Lady, and thought that she only ever meant to make her a good Lannister marriage to Lancel or one of his brothers.

I think it is growing more and more clear that Sansa is going to be the queen to cast Cersei down.  She'll either become Queen in the North through a marriage to Harrold (my personal guess... I think the kingdoms are going to divide again by the end), or Queen on the Iron Throne through marriage to a contender.

Sansa took Jaime, Joffrey, and Tywin from her... indirectly, but she still took them.  She also could be said to have turned Kevan against Cersei, because Kevan was very upset about Joffrey's treatment of her.  It'll be interesting in TWOW to see if she plays any sort of direct or indirect role in Cersei losing Tommen and/or Myrcella -- although I think Myrcella is going to survive the series.

But, I did feel that Myrcella's mutilation at the hands of her Martell in-laws was meant to parallel Sansa's abuse at the hands of her Lannister in-laws.  So there is a tie there -- a loose one, but it is there.

Hmmm, that's an interesting tie in there, Alexia, but a very relevant one I think. And I do agree that Sansa is going to be the younger, more beautiful Queen. Perhaps Sansa will arrange a match between Bran and Myrcella? Or are people still holding out hope for Bran and Meera?

[Raksha the Demon]

I am not sure that a match between Bran and Myrcella would work out well.  I can't see the Stark bannermen welcoming as Lady of Winterfell a daughter of the family who attainted and killed Ned Stark.  The two kids themselves might like each other, though.  If Bran is going to marry anyone, that is; which might depend on if he will be able to sire children.  

[Rapsie]

Raksha the Demon, on 03 October 2011 - 10:20 AM, said:

I am not sure that a match between Bran and Myrcella would work out well.  I can't see the Stark bannermen welcoming as Lady of Winterfell a daughter of the family who attainted and killed Ned Stark.  The two kids themselves might like each other, though.  If Bran is going to marry anyone, that is; which might depend on if he will be able to sire children.  

Married to Bran it would also stop Myrcella from having any children either, unless the were someone elses. It is a shame that Myrcella and Tommen seem to be doomed because of their Mother.

[brashcandy]

Rapsie, on 03 October 2011 - 01:43 PM, said:

Married to Bran it would also stop Myrcella from having any children either, unless the were someone elses. It is a shame that Myrcella and Tommen seem to be doomed because of their Mother.

Bran is paralysed but we don't know if he's impotent... Ok I'll stop cause we're now discussing Bran's future sex life which makes me feel a bit icky

[Tagganaro]

The quoting isn't working for some reason.

1. Bran getting with anybody but Meera would be extremely disappointing to me.  They are really cute together (outside of the incredibly creepy and ill-conceived thought of warging Hodor to make love to Meera).  They've been through too much together to not end up together.  Bran will either end up with her or end up with no one imo.

2.  As the OP said and Alexia explained, I have to agree that Sansa is the younger queen.  She's already indirectly responsible for Joffrey and Tywin, that just leaves Myrcella, Tommen, and Jaime.  In a way she's kind of taken Jaime from Cersei as well by symbolizing his oath and the importance of it to him to Catelyn.  

Plus, it just makes too much narrative sense for Sansa to turn the tables on Cersei.  We know that Sansa is beautiful as every single person seems to remark on it and Cersei herself does the same in Sansa's wedding dress scene.  In a manner of speaking, Cersei is also the most responsible for Sansa's awful treatment by Joffrey- Cersei seems to ignore how Joffrey treats Sansa, and even disgustingly convinces herself that Sansa should be grateful to her for treating her well and taking her into her family at one point.  

It's gotta be Sansa imo.

[Daenerys Faithful Servant]

ARYa_Nym, on 03 October 2011 - 07:37 AM, said:

Faithful Servant

I think Cersei started to let herself go when Joffrey and Tywin died. She didn't really take care of herself so she didn't age gracefully. In AGOT she still looked good. Ned was even distracted by it when he spoke to her in the godswood but he said that he hadn't seen her beauty in a long time. Her beauty is truly gone now.

Why that is possible that her physical appearance could have suffered to such an extensive degree, we certainly see the mental cracks deepen into a rather extreme fracture after Joffery and Tywin, Ned's reaction can be explain by Cersei's own thoughts.

Spoiler

If she had remained fully dressed she believes no one would question her beauty as the trimmings of power completely hide her diminishing physical attractiveness.

It could be that she is just that delusional, but I just felt like the sudden revelation seemed like Martin was confirming that the "more beautiful" aspect of the younger Queen prophecy in the most obvious way possible. It seem as if he looked back on the previous books and thought he made Cersei sound too attractive for the prophecy to be true and suddenly the 'mistake' was over corrected to remove all doubt.

[ARYa_Nym]

-Faithful Servant


If I remember correctly Cersei appeared to be having the Robert syndrome in AFFC. She was drinking a lot and gaining weight.

[ARYa_Nym]

"It seem as if he looked back on the previous books and thought he made Cersei sound too attractive for the prophecy to be true and suddenly the 'mistake' was over corrected to remove all doubt. "

Oh and on this point this might be true. I think he solved it with aging and the drinking though.

In her prime, the way he wrote her made it seem like Ashara, Lyanna, Catelyn, Sansa, and Margaery could never look better than her.

Only someone who was the female equivalent of Rhaegar could. However, I don't believe her when she said that Rhaegar would have never looked at Lyanna twice if she was his wife. She's delusional there.

Now since she is losing her looks anyone is fair game to be the younger queen except if you're ugly and disfigured like Shireen.

[ZacharyB]

ARYa_Nym, on 02 October 2011 - 09:47 PM, said:

Zachary B.

Spoiler

  No it's not. Manderly and Glover said that they would declare for Stannis if they found Rickon. Plus the Northern lords knew of Robb's will but never bothered to go to the wall to try and make Jon the King in the North. The Northern clans only sent men to the wall to try and find Bran.

ADWD spoilers:

Spoiler

The North remembers. I'm just speculating, but I don't think Manderly is going to declare for Stannis once he gets his hands on Rickon. It's clear that the North still hates the Southron lords for the Red Wedding and that they don't want to belong to the Iron Throne.

@Robb's will: We don't even know who knows about it. It's never really brought up again after he writes it and heads off to the wedding. Also, remember that Robb's host was basically crushed at the wedding. The North was in no state to go and declare for Jon.