399 replies to this topic

[Shaggydog Stark]

First of all, I really enjoy reading this thread, though I don't post much here. It ties together a lot of the information we now have and gives an in-depth view of Danny's arc.I also enjoy reading all the posters different theories. I can't wait for the next installment and I really hope you guys do the same with other character arcs in the future. Anyway, I am posting this because first I want the thread to go back to the top and secondly I have a question.

We know that Varys and Illyrio have their own scheme going, by using Aegon. My question is, how do they expect to control Aegon now that he is in Westeros? Jon Connington seems to find it difficult. Aegon decides to lead the attack on Storm's End against Connington's advice and I think Connington mentions somewhere that it was easier to advise "his son" instead of the prince. My apologies, I can't remember the exact wording, I read ADwD once and really fast. The point is Aegon seems to have a mind of his own, so if Varys and Illyrio have no way of controlling Aegon, all their careful planning to make him the new king are put at a risk. This plan could very well blow up in their faces and plunge Westeros in even further chaos.

[Alexia]

MyDogIsNamedDanerys, on 06 October 2011 - 01:47 PM, said:

It would be cool if we could get an oughtright Dany-disliker to have all three perspectives.  Maybe some of them will join the reread.  

Awesome!  Then we get a three-way cat fight.  

MyDogIsNamedDanerys, on 06 October 2011 - 01:47 PM, said:

Yeah I have no sympathy for Viserys even on rereads, no matter how old he was.  Sorry...  

I think Harry Lloyd made me more sympathetic to the character and made him more human.  I can’t help but feel bad for him now.

BTW, Stark forces would have arrived within hours of Lannister.

MyDogIsNamedDanerys, on 06 October 2011 - 01:47 PM, said:

One hypothesis: Similar to killing Kevan Lannister, part of what Varys and Ilyrio want is general mayhem in Westeros.  Dothraki are good at mayhem.

Can I just say that I hate them even more, now?

MyDogIsNamedDanerys, on 06 October 2011 - 01:47 PM, said:

Your mom is over 40 and balding.

I’ll just leave this picture of Jorah the hairy bearright here for your viewing pleasure…

MyDogIsNamedDanerys, on 06 October 2011 - 01:47 PM, said:

This is borne out by Daenerys' mentioning reading military and political strategies and such in various books.  

Do you remember where that is mentioned?  I don’t know how she would have read military and political strategies, without being educated about the history of Westeros.

MyDogIsNamedDanerys, on 06 October 2011 - 01:47 PM, said:

Varys and Illyrio may have felt that Daenerys would actually benefit more from this than from a more stable existence.

Sorry, but that doesn’t make sense.  Here’s what I think, because I had almost forgotten about the marriage to Arianne.  Daenerys was meant to get them the Dothraki through her marriage.  Viserys would marry Arianne and invade the kingdoms at the head of a Dothraki force.  Then, at the end, when the true Targaryens have conquered the kingdom, they would have been forced to acknowledge Aegon as their lost relative and been made to step aside.  But their role in the plans was only to be used to get Aegon on the throne, nothing more.
When Viserys headed off, they gave him up for dead since they couldn’t imprison him in Illyrio’s manse.

[brashcandy]

Shaggydog Stark, on 07 October 2011 - 04:12 AM, said:

We know that Varys and Illyrio have their own scheme going, by using Aegon. My question is, how do they expect to control Aegon now that he is in Westeros? Jon Connington seems to find it difficult. Aegon decides to lead the attack on Storm's End against Connington's advice and I think Connington mentions somewhere that it was easier to advise "his son" instead of the prince. My apologies, I can't remember the exact wording, I read ADwD once and really fast. The point is Aegon seems to have a mind of his own, so if Varys and Illyrio have no way of controlling Aegon, all their careful planning to make him the new king are put at a risk. This plan could very well blow up in their faces and plunge Westeros in even further chaos.

This is my thinking as well, although some posters believe that Aegon will listen to Connington, and that really the whole situation is out of V+I hands.

Personally, I think its going to be a problem (just like Sansa will be for LF) to control Aegon, especially with Connington having greyscale, and having to worry about hiding that. Any number of things could develop, the worst being if Aegon becomes fixated on the wrong girl like Robb did.



.

[Dyanna]

I really wonder if Varys and Illyrio had any plans for Dany at all, after marrying her off. In the same conversation in which Illyrio tells Tyrion he'd been temted to "claim" Dany for himself he also says the following:

"If truth be told, I did not think Daenerys would survive for long among the horse lords."

And shortly afterwards:

"The frightened child who sheltered in my manse died on the Dothraki sea, and was reborn in blood and fire." (both p. 73 of the Bantam hardcover)

He describes her as a "frightened child" that he expected to die. And from all the information he has about her both assumptions seem valid. What did he know about Dany at this point?
- She is a Targaryen (who shows no outward signs of madness, which might make her useful)
- She is a 13 year old girl which has been on the run all her life while being mistreated by her older brother
- She does not outwardly seem to be very confident or bold

So which reason would he have had to put any confidence into her surviving the harsh and very different life among the Dothraki?
I assume Khaleesi usually isn't in a very risky position as long as her Khal is in power, but there should still be plenty of dangers for her. There is, ofc, suicide by stupidity à la Viserys, though this one hasn't been too likely with Dany. There is the exhausting, tiring life she leads there. I assume there are plenty of insects which might infect you with deadly illnesses. Death in childbirth. And even if she wouldn't have died - the meek girl Illyrio thought he knew might just have suffered the situation without ever becoming queen material.

So I remain doubtful of them having had any real plans for Dany. Rather something along the lines of "If she survives and gets us the Dothraki, that's cool. If not, no big loss."

[Shaggydog Stark]

brashcandy, on 07 October 2011 - 07:32 AM, said:

This is my thinking as well, although some posters believe that Aegon will listen to Connington, and that really the whole situation is out of V+I hands.

Personally, I think its going to be a problem (just like Sansa will be for LF) to control Aegon, especially with Connington having greyscale, and having to worry about hiding that. Any number of things could develop, the worst being if Aegon becomes fixated on the wrong girl like Robb did.

Maybe he will listen to Connington, IIRC, I believe Connington resents V+I. Anyway, like you pointed out, his influence can't possibly last for much longer with the greyscale. The idea that Aegon might make the same mistake as Robb is intriguing.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Dyanna, on 07 October 2011 - 07:43 AM, said:

I really wonder if Varys and Illyrio had any plans for Dany at all, after marrying her off. In the same conversation in which Illyrio tells Tyrion he'd been temted to "claim" Dany for himself he also says the following:

"If truth be told, I did not think Daenerys would survive for long among the horse lords."

And shortly afterwards:

"The frightened child who sheltered in my manse died on the Dothraki sea, and was reborn in blood and fire." (both p. 73 of the Bantam hardcover)
...
So I remain doubtful of them having had any real plans for Dany. Rather something along the lines of "If she survives and gets us the Dothraki, that's cool. If not, no big loss."

I find this fairly convincing, in that V&I weren't relying on Daenerys' survival.  And I agree V&I are doing everything with the intent of Aegon being the king.  The main thing I object to is the idea that V&I explicitly wanted Daenerys dead and that they sent her to the Dothraki in the hope she would be killed to clear the way for Aegon.  This is needlessly elaborate and doesn't explain certain things, such as gifting the dragon eggs.  To be perfectly honest, the theory (held by many before adwd came out) that Varys' master plan was for a Targaryen restoration via Daenerys/Viserys never really quite sat right with me.  There were too many things that could go wrong for that to be their primary plan (e.g. the assassination attempt).

...but then again the same could be said for Doran, and we know that Doran Martell's "master plan" really was for Viserys and Arianne to marry (and his "backup" was to send his son on a suicide mission)!  So, yeah sometimes people in these books rely heavily on very, very bad/likely to fail plans.  Speaking of Doran, I don't think that Varys and Illyrio were involved in Doran's plan to marry Viserys to Arianne, were they?

However I still think they'd like to marry her to Aegon if she did succeed in the mission they set her on (that is bringing the Dothraki to Westeros).  And even better if she succeeded in mission B, hatching dragons.  It's clear that post-dragons they want Aegon and Daenerys to marry, of course.

Shaggydog Stark, on 07 October 2011 - 04:12 AM, said:

First of all, I really enjoy reading this thread, though I don't post much here. It ties together a lot of the information we now have and gives an in-depth view of Danny's arc.I also enjoy reading all the posters different theories. I can't wait for the next installment and I really hope you guys do the same with other character arcs in the future.

We'll see about others, at 2-3 chapters per week it'll still take a couple months to get through Dany's arc (she has 31 chapters across all 5 books).

I'll post my chapter 2 recap tomorrow afternoon, by the way, so watch for it then.  

Quote

We know that Varys and Illyrio have their own scheme going, by using Aegon. My question is, how do they expect to control Aegon now that he is in Westeros? Jon Connington seems to find it difficult.
...
This plan could very well blow up in their faces and plunge Westeros in even further chaos.

I think Varys will have a very difficult time controlling Aegon, just as Littlefinger will have little success controlling Sansa Stark.  I predict by the end (hopefully by the end of twow), both Varys and Littlefinger will fall, their plans shattered.

That's my hope anyway.  I really hate Varys after the epilogue of adwd.  We now know he doesn't care a whit for the smallfolk, whatever he may have said to Ned in aGoT.  He's willing to beggar and starve the realm, killing thousands of innocents, so that his buddy's untested 17 year old son can sit the Iron Throne?  Give me a break.

ETA:
I forgot to respond to this extremely important point by Alexia!

Alexia, on 07 October 2011 - 06:34 AM, said:

I’ll just leave this picture of Jorah the hairy bearright here for your viewing pleasure…

LOLNO. [img]../../../public/style_emoticons/default/lmao.gif[/img]
...It's a book, and therefore at the mercy of my imagination. I don't have to take descriptions too literally if I don't want to!  And besides, in this case I can always revert to TV canon if necessary.

Edited by MyDogIsNamedDanerys, 07 October 2011 - 10:21 AM.

[Alexia]

MyDogIsNamedDanerys, on 07 October 2011 - 09:27 AM, said:

I find this fairly convincing, in that V&I weren't relying on Daenerys' survival.

I do, too.  I think the pieces are starting to click together now -- which is why I'm glad that we did this.

MyDogIsNamedDanerys, on 07 October 2011 - 09:27 AM, said:

Speaking of Doran, I don't think that Varys and Illyrio were involved in Doran's plan to marry Viserys to Arianne, were they?

Someone will have to check ADWD (I could do it tonight) but I am pretty sure Illyrio signed the marriage agreement.

MyDogIsNamedDanerys, on 07 October 2011 - 09:27 AM, said:

I'll post my chapter 2 recap tomorrow afternoon, by the way, so watch for it then.  

Will do!  And as a warning, I'm going out of town for a few days for work, and leaving Sunday morning.  So I won't post the chapter 3 recap until next Wednesday.

It is indeed several months off, but I would be up for a Jon or a Catelyn reread once we get through -- but I'll have to see how I feel once we get there.

[Shaggydog Stark]

MyDogIsNamedDanerys, on 07 October 2011 - 09:27 AM, said:

We'll see about others, at 2-3 chapters per week it'll still take a couple months to get through Dany's arc (she has 31 chapters across all 5 books).

I'll post my chapter 2 recap tomorrow afternoon, by the way, so watch for it then.  

Alexia, on 07 October 2011 - 09:39 AM, said:

Will do!  And as a warning, I'm going out of town for a few days for work, and leaving Sunday morning.  So I won't post the chapter 3 recap until next Wednesday.

I am looking forward to it. This was the sort of discussion I was hoping for when I joined this forum, you guys are doing a great job. We have time, an estimated three to five years till WoW is out so take as long as you need .

MyDogIsNamedDanerys, on 07 October 2011 - 09:27 AM, said:

I think Varys will have a very difficult time controlling Aegon, just as Littlefinger will have little success controlling Sansa Stark.  I predict by the end (hopefully by the end of twow), both Varys and Littlefinger will fall, their plans shattered.

That's my hope anyway.  I really hate Varys after the epilogue of adwd.  We now know he doesn't care a whit for the smallfolk, whatever he may have said to Ned in aGoT.  He's willing to beggar and starve the realm, killing thousands of innocents, so that his buddy's untested 17 year old son can sit the Iron Throne?  Give me a break.

I really hope you are right, I am tired of these schemers getting their way all the time and using everyone as pawns for their petty schemes and stupid ambitions.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Daenerys, chapter 2:

Recap:
It is Daenerys wedding day.  Thousands of Dothraki have gathered, filling the fields outside of Pentos.  Dany, Viserys, and Ser Jorah have been living in Drogo's manse for the past weeks while he joined his men in the camps.  Ser Jorah swore his sword to Viserys the night of her betrothal, and has since been their constant companion.  Illyrio and Jorah have explained to Viserys that he will have to wait to get his prize from selling Dany, he doesn't like that very much.

Dany has her first dragon dream, and comes away from it more afraid than she has ever been.  But not as afraid as she would be the day of her wedding.

She is married outdoors in the center of the Dothraki horde.  Viserys sits beneath her for the first time ever, and his anger grows.  Dany witnesses sex, fighting, and killing for the first time in her life.  She grows more terrified by the minute.

Quote

As the hours passed, the terror grew in her until it was all she could do not to scream.  ...she was afraid of the Dothraki, who seemed like beasts in men's skin and not true men at all... she was afraid of her brother...  most of all she was afraid of what would happen tonight, under the stars.

Quote

There was no one to talk to.  So she sat in her wedding silks afraid to eat talking silently to herself.  I am blood of the dragon, Daenerys Stormborn, Princess of Dragonstone, of the Seed and Blood of Aegon the Conquerer

Daenerys receives gifts from the entire khalasaar including her handmaids from Viserys - Irri is to instruct her in riding, Jhiqui in Dothraki language, and Doreah in the art of love (both Viserys and Illyrio have "sampled" her).  She receives a pile of stories of the seven kingdoms from Ser Jorah, and the dragon eggs from Illyrio.  She receives weapons from Drogo's bloodriders which she gifts to her husband.

Finally, Drogo gifts her with a beautiful filly, grey as the sea, and the prize of the khalasaar.  Drogo puts her on the filly, but she is uncertain what to do.  Ser Jorah encourages her to ride on, and she rides, at first hesitant and then boldly, forgetting her fear.  She leaps a firepit, and tells Drogo she has given her the wind.  She feels bold and confident.

Quote

...for the first time in hours she forgot to be afraid.  Or, perhaps, it was the first time ever.

Viserys wakens her fear again by reminding her that if she does not please the Khal, she will "wake the dragon as it has never been woken before."  She goes off with Drogo, abashed and afraid.

Dany is fearful as they dismount, and cries.  He wipes away her tears, and she discovers he knows one word of the common tongue, "no".  She helps drogo unbraid his hair, and they undress.  Drogo murmers to her in dothraki and slowly begins to touch her softly, combing her hair, touching her hands and face, massaging her, speaking gently and warmly to her for what seems like hours to Dany.  He eventually touches her breasts and nipples softly for a long time, then places her in her lap, and asks her "no?"  She replies "yes." and moves his hand between her legs.

Analysis:
When I agreed to Alexia's reread, I had forgotten that I might be forced to summarize this chapter!  

I feel like whatever I say about this I will be walking into a landmine of some kind!  So...  I think I'll stick to some observations that are not about the final scene, for starters.

Dany is continually afraid this chapter.  She is almost never afraid, or at least does not admit it to herself again.  It's interesting because one of the things I noticed last chapter was how unafraid she was.  Here she fears.  She fears Viserys, she fears the Dothraki, she fears Drogo.  And we hear her litany for the first time, which we will hear again and again "I am the blood of the dragon."  It's her version of "fear is the mindkiller" in this chapter, and she repeats it three times.

I also find it significant that Dany is afraid even of the dragon in her dream, the first time she dreams of him.  Then again, the dragon did chase off Viserys, who was beating her in her dreams.

Clearly Jorah Mormont already sees what a fool Viserys is having just sworn an oath to protect him.  Maybe Illyrio and Varys told him as much.

Quote

"Dothraki are true to their word but they do things in their own time. A lesser man may beg a favor from the Khal but must never presume to berate him."
"Hold your tongue Mormont, or I'll have it out.  I am no lesser man."

Pretty much obvious already that Ser Jorah has no intention of serving Viserys.

The bridegifts are cool, I'd forgotten the details about Irri and Jhiqui teaching Dany riding and language respectively (we never really see that).  The dragon's eggs are huge, heavy, and beautiful.  Dany thinks:

Quote

It was a truly magnificent gift, but she knew illyrio could afford to be lavish as he had collected a fortune in horses and slaves for his part in selling her to Khal Drogo.

So...  Illyrio became rich from selling Dany to Drogo.  This is interesting.  I wonder if Drogo really intended to give Viserys his Iron Throne too - it really seems not.  Perhaps Drogo really believed that Illyrio gave Dany as a gift, not Viserys.  

Further this implies that the Dragon eggs are wroth a lot but probably not as much as "a fortune in horses and slaves".  Also he says they are from beyond Asshai - I believe I've heard some speculate that the eggs are from Westeros (that they might be the last unhatched Targaryen eggs).  Obviously Illyrio could be wrong, or lying of course.

Ok so the scene.

I know a lot of people have problems with this scene.  I feel rather conflicted about it.  For one thing any arranged marriage first night borders on sexual assault because of the coersive element.  Secondly, is it realistic to believe that A.) Drogo would be as gentle as he is or that B.) Dany would be as receptive as she is?

I actually come down with a weird angle on this, because honestly I believe that B.) is more likely than A.).  Daenerys has been afraid today, but she has also felt unafraid for the first time in her life.  And that freedom is connected to Drogo (the horse he gave her).  Instead of being met with cruelty and rape, which is what she fears, she is met with tenderness and for the first time she is aware of, a man treating her like a woman.  And, she is 13.  Guys, remember how horny you were at 13?  Drogo was scary because of what Dany was (justly) afraid he would do, but he's become significantly less scary, and now sexy, in the last several hours.  I don't find it that incredible that she would respond to his manipulations here.

OTOH, Is it pushing the suspension of disbelief that Drogo would happen to be the only Dothraki ever who appears to think sex involves more than just mounting?  Yeah probably, especially given what happens in the next chapter.

Last note - Oh GRRM, you do love your ridiculous descriptions of generic Barbarism, don't you? As always it's vaguely uncomfortable-making as it smacks of orientalism.  Buuuut I'm willing now to look at this as "Dany's perspective sees it at super barbarous, so those elements stick out to her."  We know that Dany is often an unreliable narrator, as are Tyrion, Jon, Ned, etc.

[Shaggydog Stark]

A very nice summary.

MyDogIsNamedDanerys, on 08 October 2011 - 03:50 PM, said:

So... Illyrio became rich from selling Dany to Drogo. This is interesting. I wonder if Drogo really intended to give Viserys his Iron Throne too - it really seems not. Perhaps Drogo really believed that Illyrio gave Dany as a gift, not Viserys.

Further this implies that the Dragon eggs are wroth a lot but probably not as much as "a fortune in horses and slaves". Also he says they are from beyond Asshai - I believe I've heard some speculate that the eggs are from Westeros (that they might be the last unhatched Targaryen eggs). Obviously Illyrio could be wrong, or lying of course.

I had forgotten about Illyrio getting paid for Danny. I think you are right. I don't think Drogo ever intended to give Viserys an army. Not that I mind because this chapter just reminded me what a jerk he truly was. There was a post on Sansa and Dany becoming possible best friends, there should be another for Joffrey and Viserys .

Okay about the sex scene. Out of all of Martin's sex scenes that is my favorite. I don't care if it is controversial or unrealistic. I think Dany deserved a bit of happiness and pleasure after spending her life in Viserys's company.

I loved Dany in AGOT, she was one of my favorite characters. I was actually a bit mad with GRRM for changing her so much into someone unrecognizable.

[brashcandy]

Good recap MDIND,

The sex scene and the dragon eggs are the two most important features of this chapter, and I do agree with you that it's a little unrealistic to think of Drogo being so gentle, but I do appreciate how gentle he was nevertheless, and I think that Dany's sexual 'awakening' and desire is very real.

I've always felt that this is one of the reasons why people see Daenerys as overtly sexual (read sluttish) The fact that she actually enjoys sex seems to strike people as bizarre for a girl her age, and leads them to the erroneous belief that she's had copious amounts of sex with lots of men.

In thinking about Dany and Drogo's relationship, it's nice to see that she gets her first taste of freedom from him, which is ironic given that she's basically been sold which implies captivity. The fear that Dany feels however can't be underestimated and we tend to forget (now that we're at the ADWD Dragon Queen stage) just how much of a young, bewildered and frightened girl she was.

For me though, I think one of Dany's main strengths is her ability to adapt and to fit into her circumstances. She may be afraid, but she's not a cry baby like Viserys. Instead of reassuring her, he's threatening and berating her. Definitely not a model big brother, but it simply underscores that Dany was always the star.

As for the dragon eggs, I think Illyrio probably was telling the truth when he said he got them from beyond Asshai. I can't think of any reason he might lie unless he wants to them to sound more mysterious and alluring, but hey they're dragon eggs! they really don't need talking up any more.
So you know my feelings on this already. I feel Illyrio definitely underscores Dany's legitimacy here by giving her the eggs but also I think this is his first real act of undermining Viserys. After all, why doesn't he get the eggs? So I feel that Illyrio uses the wedding ceremony as a cover to give Dany the eggs - as she is the one he has plans for -  and in order to not outrightly offend Viserys.

Edited by brashcandy, 08 October 2011 - 05:01 PM.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

brashcandy, on 08 October 2011 - 04:57 PM, said:

I've always felt that this is one of the reasons why people see Daenerys as overtly sexual (read sluttish) The fact that she actually enjoys sex seems to strike people as bizarre for a girl her age, and leads them to the erroneous belief that she's had copious amounts of sex with lots of men.

Very good point.

Daenerys has a strikingly healthy/open/modern attitude towards sex, which is absolutely not the norm in Westeros for either men or women (most people it seems feels a ton of shame around sex, or if they don't, they have other... issues).  I suppose it has to do with the religious upbringing in Westeros emphasizing that sex is sinful, and Dany, living in Essos, avoided that.

I find it a little sad that so many modern readers would find it odd that a 13-15 year old girl should have sexual feelings and/or find sex enjoyable...  weren't we all horny-as-hell at that age?  Then again it is creepy as an adult to actually think about 13 year olds we know having active sex lives, and we want to keep it out of our minds as much as possible (likewise we really don't want to think about our 60 year old parents/aunts/uncles).  It does twinge a bit, especially as her husband is 30...  The point of statuatory rape laws are that young people aren't mentally prepared to give consent to adults, not that they are incapable of sexual desire and sex.

Quote

For me though, I think one of Dany's main strengths is her ability to adapt and to fit into her circumstances.

I agree, and I think this might be her greatest strength of all.

The first time she has failed to adapt has been in Meereen, strikingly.  There's just something about being there that destroys her greatest attributes and strengths.  : /

Edited by MyDogIsNamedDanerys, 08 October 2011 - 05:25 PM.

[Shaggydog Stark]

MyDogIsNamedDanerys, on 08 October 2011 - 05:22 PM, said:

Very good point.

Daenerys has a strikingly healthy/open/modern attitude towards sex, which is absolutely not the norm in Westeros for either men or women (most people it seems feels a ton of shame around sex, or if they don't, they have other... issues).  I suppose it has to do with the religious upbringing in Westeros emphasizing that sex is sinful, and Dany, living in Essos, avoided that.

I find it a little sad that so many modern readers would find it odd that a 13-15 year old girl should have sexual feelings and/or find sex enjoyable...  weren't we all horny-as-hell at that age?  Then again it is creepy as an adult to actually think about 13 year olds we know having active sex lives, and we want to keep it out of our minds as much as possible (likewise we really don't want to think about our 60 year old parents/aunts/uncles).  It does twinge a bit, especially as her husband is 30...  The point of statuatory rape laws are that young people aren't mentally prepared to give consent to adults, not that they are incapable of sexual desire and sex.

I think it is a little silly to apply our modern standards to those of the time frame in the books. In real life this is supposed to be the middle ages. People married at this age in the middle ages, basically because people did not live as long as we do today. The average life expectancy I read somewhere was I think 30-35 years. Mainly due to illness. Do people really think she is slutty? I am surprised.

What I didn't like about her in ADwD, was this feeling that she was not the same person. Her character didn't feel real to me anymore. I feel like she has lost some of her earthiness. I don't know, something was missing, she didn't grab me like she used to. Anyway, I only read the book once, maybe I read too fast. I did not think she was slutty though lol.

[Angalin]

MyDogIsNamedDanerys, on 07 October 2011 - 09:27 AM, said:

I find this fairly convincing, in that V&I weren't relying on Daenerys' survival.  And I agree V&I are doing everything with the intent of Aegon being the king.  

Agreed.  I think Daenerys and Viserys, by being so visible, were deemed to be expendable.  If Robert was watching them, he wasn't going to be looking for a not-exactly dead Aegon.

[Parwan]

brashcandy, on 08 October 2011 - 04:57 PM, said:

For me though, I think one of Dany's main strengths is her ability to adapt and to fit into her circumstances. She may be afraid, but she's not a cry baby like Viserys. Instead of reassuring her, he's threatening and berating her. Definitely not a model big brother, but it simply underscores that Dany was always the star.

As for the dragon eggs, I think Illyrio probably was telling the truth when he said he got them from beyond Asshai. I can't think of any reason he might lie unless he wants to them to sound more mysterious and alluring, but hey they're dragon eggs! they really don't need talking up any more.
So you know my feelings on this already. I feel Illyrio definitely underscores Dany's legitimacy here by giving her the eggs but also I think this is his first real act of undermining Viserys. After all, why doesn't he get the eggs? So I feel that Illyrio uses the wedding ceremony as a cover to give Dany the eggs - as she is the one he has plans for -  and in order to not outrightly offend Viserys.

Fossils--It's important to remember that Illyrio gave Dany fossils. They were beautiful, of course, but no one thought of them as actual eggs. Essentially everyone in the world (or at least everyone west of Ashai) said that the dragons were all dead. Illyrio himself says of the eggs, "the eons have turned them to stone..." This doesn't undermine your point about Ilyrio's opinion of Viserys. It does point out something important about Dany--magic. The woman is magical; she is some kind of font or pivot point for the magic that is re-entering the world. The dragons are dead, the dragons are gone, but somehow she brings them back. It's interesting that so many people either attack or defend the Targaryen queen without ever mentioning the magic factor.

Yes to the point about adaptability. At times it's more than this. Daenerys has an extremely strong, almost preternatural, ability to figure out what's going on in situations initially quite foreign to her. This goes along with the magic.

[Early Earl]

MyDogIsNamedDanerys, on 08 October 2011 - 05:22 PM, said:

The first time she has failed to adapt has been in Meereen, strikingly.  There's just something about being there that destroys her greatest attributes and strengths.  : /

Shaggydog Stark, on 08 October 2011 - 05:40 PM, said:

What I didn't like about her in ADwD, was this feeling that she was not the same person. Her character didn't feel real to me anymore. I feel like she has lost some of her earthiness. I don't know, something was missing, she didn't grab me like she used to. Anyway, I only read the book once, maybe I read too fast. I did not think she was slutty though lol.

ADwD

Spoiler

Puberty? That was my take on it. I think the problem with underage sex today is the fact that the person has not become "theirself" yet. That's what's happening during puberty, you take control of your life for the first time, you make your won decisions and become much of the individual you will be throughout your life. Until then, you might not be able to grasp what influence intimacy with another person could have on you. You maybe not be stable enough in your self-esteem to handle a turn down... things like that, you know. So that's where underage sex feels weird to us but since back then noone was really able to become a "free" person anyways, it didn't matter as much.

So that's what her amorous adventures are caused by, I think. Also her stubborness in many matters she's concerned with in Mereen. She's distancing herself from her past somewhat and she needs the break she's now taking in the grass sea to decide who she wants to be.

Edited by Early Earl, 11 October 2011 - 03:39 PM.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Early Earl, on 11 October 2011 - 03:38 PM, said:

ADwD

Spoiler

Puberty? That was my take on it. I think the problem with underage sex today is the fact that the person has not become "theirself" yet. That's what's happening during puberty, you take control of your life for the first time, you make your won decisions and become much of the individual you will be throughout your life. Until then, you might not be able to grasp what influence intimacy with another person could have on you. You maybe not be stable enough in your self-esteem to handle a turn down... things like that, you know. So that's where underage sex feels weird to us but since back then noone was really able to become a "free" person anyways, it didn't matter as much.

So that's what her amorous adventures are caused by, I think. Also her stubborness in many matters she's concerned with in Mereen. She's distancing herself from her past somewhat and she needs the break she's now taking in the grass sea to decide who she wants to be.

That's very true, and I don't hold the sex against her. What really bothered me though and your answer sort of covers it too, is how she seems to be sidetracked from what is important. It bothered me that she locked up her dragons. I know why she did it but it still bothered me, because it was wrong and she lost herself by distancing herself from her "real children". I mean Drogon didn't even recognize her!

I admire her for wanting to save the slaves, it is very admirable but she needs to understand that she is not responsible for them and that they are not her children. She has already freed them and done what she can for them, now she needs to get herself to Westeros. If she continues like this, she will burn herself out. Nobody can bear such burdens of responsibility. If you believe you are everyone's mother, you are becoming personally involved in the lives of thousands of people and it is not do-able for any human being.

As for her sexuality, I was happy for her when she started having an affair with Daario, that I understood and thought she needed it because at least she was focusing a little on herself instead of everyone else for a change.

What I did not understand was her marriage to "What's his name" (I keep forgetting that guys name). She is doing it for Mereen, but Mereen is not her concern, it should be Westeros she should be thinking about.

I want her to remember who she is and start focusing on her important goals. She needs to understand that she can't save the world and even though I hate to say this, but at the end of the day Mereen is not important from a geo-political point of view and getting embroiled in its politics/wars, etc. is meaningless. Her marriage just entrenches her further in Mereen.

By the end of the book, I was relieved when Drogon took her away and isolated her from all the craziness of war and politics for some time. It gave her time to think and to put things into perspective. I am hoping in the next book she will have grown and start prioritizing. She was one of my favorite characters, right up there with the Starks because I could relate to her and found her brave and able to face life with a courage that is rare in someone her age and not lose herself, despite what life threw at her. There are only two female characters I really like in these books, one is Dany and the other is Arya and it was for their integrity that I liked them so much. None of the other female characters imho have/had any integrity. These two are also fierce, each in her own way. Now I find them both on paths that are not to my liking.

[Early Earl]

Shaggydog Stark, on 11 October 2011 - 04:34 PM, said:

What I did not understand was her marriage to "What's his name" (I keep forgetting that guys name). She is doing it for Mereen, but Mereen is not her concern, it should be Westeros she should be thinking about.

NO! If I may say so, you talk like her male/female parental entity (read: mother) . Now, she's a free person, believed to have the strongest military force in the world under control, conqueror of 3 cities, queen of 1, khalesi and born a princess. She has done her best and really good with any challenge she was confronted with. I think it's the right thing, and it IS actually being/becoming herself, to give a crap about Westeros. She escaped Viserys and "escaped" Drogo (in sense of him being her ruler) - now she needs to do "her" thing, not what her family's done in the past or her brother wanted to do -or Illyrio or the reader.

When she hears about the threat of the others: Then she'll have to make a descision we can judge her by. But untill then, I wouldn't know why she should care more for the peasants of Westeros than of the slaves of slaver's bay. Westeros had been doing fine w/o Targs for a long time after all.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Early Earl, on 11 October 2011 - 04:48 PM, said:

NO! If I may say so, you talk like her male/female parental entity (read: mother) . Now, she's a free person, believed to have the strongest military force in the world under control, conqueror of 3 cities, queen of 1, khalesi and born a princess. She has done her best and really good with any challenge she was confronted with. I think it's the right thing, and it IS actually being/becoming herself, to give a crap about Westeros. She escaped Viserys and "escaped" Drogo (in sense of him being her ruler) - now she needs to do "her" thing, not what her family's done in the past or her brother wanted to do -or Illyrio or the reader.

When she hears about the threat of the others: Then she'll have to make a descision we can judge her by. But untill then, I wouldn't know why she should care more for the peasants of Westeros than of the slaves of slaver's bay. Westeros had been doing fine w/o Targs for a long time after all.

lol Yes you may! Mereen is what is suffocating her. She has boxed herself into a situation that is becoming worse. A war in all the Ghis area. People trying to kill her. The Grey plague and "what's his name" conspiring against her. She needs to get out and cut her losses! I have a whole bunch of other things to say as well, unfortunately I have work tomorrow so hopefully we can pick this up later

[Alexia]

Okay, I'm sorry I've not posted my thoughts yet but here I am, all jetlagged and feeling vaguely ill (getting drunk in an airport bar with a bunch of fellow travelers while watching the Mexico-Brasil soccer game was not very smart, especially right before a red eye) so I'd argue that shows high devotion to duty and this thread!  First, I'll post my thoughts on chapter 2 and then I'll do a separate post for chapter 3.

Chapter II Thoughts

Ser Jorah is now in Viserys' employ.  The chapter starts out with Viserys being delightfully Viserys (and btw, it is so much fun to read him now while imaging Harry Lloyd as Viserys) with pissing on Dothraki omens and all.  He's paying the Dothraki price and he wants his army right now, damnit!  Does anyone think that Drogo really meant to give him men?  I'm not so sure, to be honest.

Dany has a dragon dream.  I'm not sure what the significance of these dreams are -- they aren't like the wolf dreams of the Stark children, that show them as wargs.  Is it a magical thing that only potential dragonlord Valyrians get?  Is it just a dream?  And we've seen that Tyrion has dreamt of dragons -- while Tyrion Targaryen is one of the worst theories around, maybe along with his dwarf mutation he got a mutated dragonrider gene?

Frankly, Dany's fear of the Dothraki resonates.  I don't think they come across as human beings either.  The Eastern continent and the characterizations therein are a clear weak link in a book of excellent characterizations, IMO.  I'm not quite sure why that is -- is it a lack of familiarity with non-Anglo Saxon cultures that makes it difficult to write one convincingly?  Sorry but unfortunately, the wedding chapter is probably my least favorite Dany chapter in AGOT.

Presents!  I like presents.  Dany gets slaves, books (I actually think Jorah gives her the best present), dragon eggs, and weapons (that she regifts to the khal, bad girl!).  She also gets a gown made from the skin of a thousand mice (skin crawls) so apparently the Dothraki have a Lady Gaga sense of fashion.  And she gets a horse.

Then, we get sex.  You know, as slightly uncomfortable/unrealistic sex scenes go this is probably the best of the bunch but I'll explain why it doesn't resonate with me.  Sex is, especially for an inexperienced girl, partially a thing of mood.  You simply don't go from cold to hot like that, it isn't how women generally work.  As terrified as Dany was beforehand... I just don't find the scene convincing.  Khal Drogo was very nice about things, and gentle with her, but this particular scene is IMO reminiscent of bodice-ripper romance and there is a sense of "male gaze" on it.  But you know what, I don't bitch too much about this particular sex scene because it is a novel and I would way rather read this sort of virginity loss sex scene than I would read the Ramsay/Jeyne scene.

And now, I shall start composing my recap of Chapter 3.