Defending Cat, again

[brashcandy]

Ned would never, ever, have allowed his wife to bring her supposedly bastard child to be raised in his household. Ever.

Of course he wouldn't, but I wasn't thinking that Cat would necessarily declare the baby was hers, she just wouldn't be able to tell him that it was Lysa's. I imagine Ned might still be pissed, but he might have to allow it, even though he would always have his suspicions.

Obviously with the society the way it is women do not the same liberties and allowances that men do, but Cat could have esaily ended up with a bastard nephew, and I wonder then if she may have been more inclined to be sympathetic to the Jon Snows of the world.

[Lemon Cake]

Ned would never, ever, have allowed his wife to bring her supposedly bastard child to be raised in his household. Ever.

No he probably wouldn't have. And I would have been just as hard on him as I am on Cat for the way she acted toward Jon. A hell of a lot harder, actually.

[brashcandy]

No he probably wouldn't have. And I would have been just as hard on him as I am on Cat for the way she acted toward Jon. A hell of a lot harder, actually.

Yup. What is interesting though is that Cat is there to hear Hoster Tully's regret over his treatment of Lysa, and how much it haunts him. She even wonders if he could have had another woman other than her mother. I think he may have died a much more peaceful man if he had allowed Lysa to have that "bastard", and I wonder if Cat had been able to figure it out what she would have thought.

[-jelena-]

I don't think there's any evidence that Rhaegar would've needed the permission of the High Septon.

And they wouldn't have needed any septon to officiate, if they opted for a northern gods ceremony.

It doesn’t matter for what ceremony they would have opted. I’m curious to know what would make that second marriage legal?

Oh for the love. No one is saying that Catelyn didn't have a right to be furious. It has been acknowledged several times, by several of her critics, that she was put in a horrible, unfair position and that her resentment was very understandable.

What we are saying is that her hostility was very unfairly directed at the wrong person. That her anger should have been directed at Ned, not Jon. And that yes, we think it was shitty of her to persist for fourteen freaking years in being cold and distant to a child for something that was never his fault in the first place, instead of redirecting that coldness toward the person who actually deserved it.

I honestly do not get why some apparently find this simple distinction so hard to understand.

I don’t think that you understand a human nature. It’s not that unusual to shift your resentment and anger to another person. Jon’s presence was a threat to her children and an evidence of Ned’s infidelity. Ned was her husband and her lord, it was her duty to be his obedient wife.

And yeah, only a "paragon of virtue" could possibly find it in themselves to, you know, be nice every now & then to a kid who isn't theirs, amirite? Really, the expectations some readers put on poor widdle Catelyn are just so hard.

Why did she have to be nice to him? She wasn’t abusive to him; she simply ignored him. Is Jon her son, grandchild, nephew, cousin, friend, what? She wasn’t obliged to be nice to him and Jon won’t have some life traumas for not being loved by one person.

Just a few posts above yours, I stated outright that I'm fairly meh about Jon myself, and that overall I think I even prefer Catelyn to him. But thanks for proving my point that apparently some think that only rabid Jon fanboyism could possibly explain why anyone would object to the way poor, put-upon Catelyn acted toward him.

OK, let us not pretend to be idiots here. I have been reading about Cat bashing for years and it is easy to notice that some fans hate Cat simply because she hates Jon. That is enough for them to exaggerate on Cat’s other mistakes and to portray her as an evil person. And, I don’t want even to start on that whole “it should’ve been you” thing. One of the first things some people mention when they explain their hatred: she was mean to Jon. What a nice criteria to dislike one character, really.

Of course, that doesn’t mean that all Cat haters are Jon fanboys by default. But, the latter surely love to warp facts in order to portray Cat in the worst light possible and make an abused victim of Jon. Not every Cat hater is like that; that wouldn’t be fair to presume.

And, I don’t get your sarcastic tone with that “a poor Cat” thing. I don’t see Cat as a poor woman (quite the contrary) nor I think that she needs some special treatment from the readers.

I mean, wanting her to show some small measure of kindness to a kid?! That isn't even hers?! That's OUTRAGEOUS.

You are overreacting. I’ll repeat: why did she have to be nice to him?

And what’s that with the bolded part? You mentioned it twice already. Do you take it for granted that she is supposed to be nice to every kid who isn’t hers? Seriously, I don’t get it. Why does Cat have to be nice to some kid who isn’t hers? If Jon was her child then it would be logical to presume that she should be nice to him. But Jon isn’t her child and I don’t see why it should be expected from her to show kindness to some kid other than her own.

[Dragonfish]

It doesn’t matter for what ceremony they would have opted. I’m curious to know what would make that second marriage legal?

The polygamy precedent.

[lyvyathan]

And once Tyrion recognized her, from her perspective, the original plan went out the window. If she just lets Tyrion go, he's obviously going to reach King's Landing before she makes it North. Also, from her perspective, he'll have plenty of time to inform Cersei and Jaime that he's just encountered Catelyn at this particular inn instead of at Winterfell.

Catelyn thinks Tyrion's in on the overall Lannister plot, and I don't think it's far-fetched for her to assume that, left to his own devices, Tyrion's going to go to King's Landing and report that he just saw Catelyn Tully Stark at an inn when she's supposed to be in Winterfell. This is something she knows Ned doesn't want to happen. She has a split-second to make a decision. This decision (obviously) didn't end up working out well, but I don't think it was a bone-headed move. As readers, we know that Tyrion didn't have anything to do with Bran's fall, Jon Arryn's murder, or anything else. Catelyn doesn't know this, though. She's been deliberately mislead with respect to Tyrion's involvement and then the two of them happen to encounter each other at Masha Heddle's inn, pretty much a worst case scenario.

OK you want to see it from Catelyn's perspective - fine. But at the same time we could still that same kind of logic to justify Sansa going to Cersei to tell her of her father's plans, Robb's decision

to marry the girl he just had sex with

, and Jamie's decision to push Bran out of window etc.. Just because they sincerely think its the right thing - does not make it a justifiable thing to do aka a good well thought out logical plan, aka not emotional driven.

Again so what if Tyrion reaches King's Landing with the knowledge that Cat has been at the Crossroads inn. There could have been a vast number of reasons why she had gone there, mayhaps to see her husband and her daughters whom she suddenly had those tender womanly desires to see, mayhaps to tell them about Bran's condition - and quickly likely she was on her way to see her old father in the Riverlands - any numbers of plausible conclusions.

(Does Catelyn know that) Tyrion (at the inn) she and Littlefinger had met up and that LF had ID Tyrion as the owner of the dagger? No.

(Does Catelyn know that) Tyrion has information that she is on her way back to the North to mobilize the troops. NO.

(Neither can she know that) Tyrion has any knowledge that Cat has BEEN to King's Landing. No.

So because her cover is blown - she decides to take a rash bold actions that jeopardizes the safety of her two beautiful daughters and beloved husband in KL in return for kidnapping the freak son one of the most richest and powerful house in the 7 Kingdoms.

She might as well have kidnapped Moonboy.

The problem with Cat is that she doesn't think - well she's doesn't think very carefully - she's trapped in this narrow prism.

Heck, I think she was so gullible if LF had whispered to her that Jingle Bell, Jon Snow, and Moonboy had a hand in Bran's attempted murder, she'd also swallow that too.

At this stage, the Starks don't have any concrete proof other than the word of Littlefinger, who seems a very dubious sort of character- ie I wonder why the fact that he owns Brothels doesn't raise a stink in Cat's nose. He's not a person like Hoster Tully or Benjen, someone they've known all their lives.

And we know that the proof is about as thin as ice in Dorne when Tyrion takes about one minute to cause Cat to doubt the case.

You don't go around kidnapping a rival member of one of the most powerful houses in the Seven Kingdoms based on the word of a man you kissed you as a child and you've hardly met in over a decade. Do you think that's logical? Justifiable? That's just plain stupid.

The problem with Catelyn's character is the way George Martin wrote her out. It's not about women in authority. Its not about mothers. Its not about a woman's prerogative to do whatever she damn well pleases. Its about how a grown woman of a noble background, someone who is educated and who should know better commits a litany of foolish mistakes that lead to absolute disastrous outcomes that are so bleeding obvious that a humble recruiter of the Night's Watch could see it coming.

[David Selig]

You know what's funny to think about is that Cat could have easily ended up in Ned's situation. Imagine if Lysa had been allowed to keep her baby by Littlefinger, a bastard. And in sheer desperation she had asked Cat to take the baby North and have it be raised there. Now maybe Cat may have told Ned the truth, or she may have had to keep it a secret because she knows that Lysa is now married to Jon Arryn the guy Ned loves like a father. Would she have liked for Ned to ignore the child, never call him/her by name and basically act like a dick for 14 yrs? Don't think so. This is why Cat's prolonged attitude strikes people as excessively malicious and vindictive. Children are not responsible for the mess their parents bring them into. Never.

The wife of a Great Lord would probably be executed for adultery. It's high treason punishable by death if the Queen is caught doing it, and the Lords of the great Houses are pretty close to kings in their domains.

Also, I consider her to be a hypocrite. Lady's armour my ass. If she knew how to use "lady's armour" she would have been courteous. But she wasn't.

Wasn't it only Sansa who thinks that "A lady’s armor is courtesy", it was Septa Mordaine who taold her this? I don't recall Catelyn ever thinking that.

[Geddus]

Only if? Through years I have heard of many theories (one including Dany legitimatizing Jon) so I wouldn't really say "only if". When it comes to Jon people like to turn the whole world upside-down in order to put him on the throne.

Yes, but almost all those theories include Jon not being a bastard, one way or the other, in order to be able to sit the iron throne.

So, you wouldn’t have any problems if your wife came one day with a child of another man? No personal issues with that? Good for you, then, you must be a paragon of virtue.

Of course I would have issues, very serious issues. With my wife.

I called Cat rational for being feared that Jon will take over her children’s rights. And Robb did exactly that; he wanted to give Jon Winterfell. So, how is Cat irrational here?

Again, there were no rights to take over at that point.

A Lannister or not, Sansa still has more rights on Winterfell than Jon.

Yeah, the northerners would be elated to recognize Tyrion as their lord.

[lyvyathan]

I can't see why you would not consider the direct accusations of two of the most influential nobles of the realms as enough to warrant an arrest. Even nowadays with the current law system, I can't think of a country where you would not be detained if accused by the minister of finances and the wife of the late vice president.

I'm re-reading the thread... I find this most amusing. Yeah, so you mean if Margaretta Happy Rockefeller the wife of the late vice president, and Timothy Geithner - both of whom are giving the accusations in private, behind closed doors are going to cause the arrest of an important citizen like Warren Buffett's son? Very droll.

[arrowfan]

Here is my defense of Catelyn: the story would be missing without her. She's a controversial character and I like her that way.

[oba]

OK you want to see it from Catelyn's perspective - fine. But at the same time we could still that same kind of logic to justify Sansa going to Cersei to tell her of her father's plans, Robb's decision

to marry the girl he just had sex with

, and Jamie's decision to push Bran out of window etc.. Just because they sincerely think its the right thing - does not make it a justifiable thing to do aka a good well thought out logical plan, aka not emotional driven.

Catelyn's decision to kidnap Tyrion wasn't a well thought-out plan, it was a spur-of-the-moment decision prompted by a chance encounter.

Did she dare take the risk? There was no time to think it through, only the moment and the sound of her own voice ringing in her ears.

Again so what if Tyrion reaches King's Landing with the knowledge that Cat has been at the Crossroads inn. There could have been a vast number of reasons why she had gone there, mayhaps to see her husband and her daughters whom she suddenly had those tender womanly desires to see, mayhaps to tell them about Bran's condition - and quickly likely she was on her way to see her old father in the Riverlands - any numbers of plausible conclusions.

Well, Catelyn had actually already tried using a variation of this excuse on Littlefinger in King's Landing, and he didn't buy it.

"Lord Varys knows everything . . . except why you are here." He lifted an eyebrow. "Why are you here?"

"A wife is allowed to yearn for her husband, and if a mother needs her daughters close, who can tell her no?"

Littlefinger laughed. "Oh, very good, my lady, but please don't expect me to believe that. I know you too well. What were the Tully words again?"

Her throat was dry. "Family, Duty, Honor, " she recited stiffly. He did know her too well.

"Family, Duty, Honor," he echoed. "All of which required you to remain in Winterfell, where our Hand left you. No, my lady, something has happened. This sudden trip of yours bespeaks a certain urgency. I beg of you, let me help. Old sweet friends should never hesitate to rely upon each other."

Again, from Catelyn's perspective, I don't think it's that unreasonable to think that the Lannisters wouldn't buy it either.

Did Tyrion (at the inn) know that Catelyn and Littlefinger had met up and that LF had ID Tyrion as the owner of the dagger? No.

Did Tyrion know that Cat was on her way back to the North to mobilize the troops. NO.

Does Tyrion even know that Cat and LF and she had shown him the 3rd rate assasin's expensive dagger? No.

Does Tyrion even have any knowledge that Cat has BEEN to King's Landing. No.

Again, as readers, we know a lot more about the situation and what Tyrion does and doesn't know than Catelyn does.

So because her cover is blown - she decides to take a rash bold actions that jeopardizes the safety of her two beautiful daughters and beloved husband in KL in return for kidnapping the freak son one of the most richest and powerful house in the 7 Kingdoms.

She decides to take an action based upon imperfect information. Actually, imperfect information is an understatement. Littlefinger's trying to set the Starks and Lannisters at each other's throats. The chance encounter at the inn is, basically, a perfect storm. Catelyn takes an action that she knows is risky because she thinks it's the best alternative available. We, as readers, know that Tyrion's innocent.

The problem with Cat is that she doesn't think - well she's doesn't think very carefully - she's trapped in this narrow prism.

Heck, I think she was so gullible if LF had whispered to her that Jingle Bell, Jon Snow, and Moonboy had a hand in Bran's attempted murder, she'd also swallow that too.

I don't really agree with you here. LF's very good at manipulating people. In this instance (the dagger) LF takes a bold action that ends up working out for him due to circumstances completely beyond his control. His lie about the dagger could very easily have backfired on him. It didn't.

On the surface, Catelyn doesn't have any reason to think that LF's lying about the dagger or any reason to think that, behind the scenes, he's trying to provoke/promote conflict between the Lannisters and Starks.

At this stage, the Starks don't have any concrete proof other than the word of Littlefinger, who seems a very dubious sort of character- ie I wonder why the fact that he owns Brothels doesn't raise a stink in Cat's nose. He's not the High Septon or a person like Hoster Tully or Benjen, someone they've known all their lives.

1. They also don't really think LF has a motive to lie about the dagger.

2. Why would his owning brothels necessarily make Catelyn think he's going to lie to her about the dagger.

3. Catelyn did grow up with Littlefinger, and I don't think it would be all that reasonable for her to think that he's gotten over what she considers a teenage crush after 15+ years.

Now, I think Catelyn's decision to free Jaime definitely falls into the category of emotion-over-common sense. Jaime was a prisoner. He wasn't going anywhere. Catelyn could (and should) have taken the time to weigh the pros and cons of her actions. She'd just gotten word of her sons' "deaths".

I just think her response to the chance encounter with Tyrion falls into a different category.

[lyvyathan]

Lemoncake - I am not saying only Jon fanboys dislike Cat because she treated him coldly - my point is that Jon being the cliched Hero makes the negative reaction way stronger. If Jon was a minor character who played the same role in the plot until he left Winterfell, but after that never appeared again, I am 100% sure the criticisms against Cat for the way she treated him would've been way less in quantity and intensity.

And of course it's normal that the funnier characters are more popular in general, I have no problem with that, only wish people would be a bit more objective whne discussing their personal flaws.

Lyvyathan - the Queen of Thorns has a large number of witty lines, and doesn't treat any of Our Heroes badly, so of course she's well liked. ;)

Hey, you've written by far the most posts in this thread, a lot of them pretty long too. You've easily beaten the Cat defenders in terms of enthusiasm, only yours is for the opposite cause. ;)

I'd probably be able to forgive Catelyn for her coldness and outburst at Jon - if she didn't run off and do a whole bunch of emotionally driven idiotic actions that got a whole bunch of people killed.

I actually liked Catelyn in the book and show... but she really jumped the shark for me when in Clash of Kings

she let Jamie escape with Brienne on a plan that probably even Jingle Bell would have found wanting.

.

You see, its the pattern of her behavior that was so disappointing - it reveals the sort of character she is.

I hope you enjoyed reading my posts as I do yours. I always find them educational.

[lyvyathan]

Catelyn's decision to kidnap Tyrion wasn't a well thought-out plan, it was a spur-of-the-moment decision prompted by a chance encounter.

Well there you have it. So she kidnapped the son of Tywin Lannister based on a spur-of the moment decision. What does that show about her character?

Let me say that I believe that Catelyn is not and evil person. Even the coolness that she shows toward Ned's bastard is understandable to me, dumb but understandable.

But it is the pattern of her behavior that speaks very badly for her. She commits a series of dreadful foolish mistakes - I mean, it just goes on - one after the other. Its not just a once off. She doesn't stop til she's dead and even then :) .

Anyway. what does that spur of the moment show about her character? Kidnapping the son of the richest and most powerful and dangerous House should not have been any of her choices. Not while her husband and two daughters were in KL.

That's my problem with Catelyn. She doesn't think. She just acts based upon emotion and poor logic. Does that make her a wicked person. No. Mayhaps a tragic character - totally out of her depth and an utter failure as the Head Lady of a major House. And it bemuses me why so many people want to justify her decisions.

Well, Catelyn had actually already tried using a variation of this excuse on Littlefinger in King's Landing, and he didn't buy it.

Again, from Catelyn's perspective, I don't think it's that unreasonable to think that the Lannisters wouldn't buy it either.

Again, as readers, we know a lot more about the situation and what Tyrion does and doesn't know than Catelyn does.

1. They are not in KL - they are at the Crossroad Inn, which is close to House Tully lands but a distance from KL.

2. Please stop trying to use the perspective of Catelyn - using the thinking of a naive emotional character doesn't make your arguments any better.

(At the same time, we can also say that Ned Stark was a real moron for attempting that palace coup with such inferior forces at his disposal. As Lord Stark he should have realized that the Gold Cloaks' loyalty was suspect. The fact that Renly had fled should have already sent off a couple of red flags. In short, he should have known better. He might as well twaddle on about honor all he wanted but what mattered were the forces at his disposal.)

It should have been obvious to her that the apparent conflict between House Stark and House Lannister is very new but at the moment - covert. Kidnapping the son of Tywin escalates the hostilities into open conflict - and does nothing except exacerbate the vulnerability of her precious daughters and husband in KL. Even Yoren, the recruiter from the Night Watch realized this, ie. it doesn't take the intelligence of LF to figure how dangerous her spur of the moment plan is.

Tyrion's innocence is actually a moot point. In fact, even if we knew he's guility Catelyn should have thought twenty times over before risking that risky capture ie the poor evidence. Great drama for sure but justifiable surely not. Its even worse than Jamie's attempt on Ned's life because it stood the greatest chance of failure and the highest possible risk.

She decides to take an action based upon imperfect information. Actually, imperfect information is an understatement. Littlefinger's trying to set the Starks and Lannisters at each other's throats. The chance encounter at the inn is, basically, a perfect storm. Catelyn takes an action that she knows is risky because she thinks it's the best alternative available. We, as readers, know that Tyrion's innocent.

As I mentioned before, its immaterial whether Tyrion is innocent or not. He's from the most powerful and dangerous House in the 7 Kingdoms - but he's also expendable because he's a dwarf, not beloved by his Father. And as you already mentioned - Cat possess imperfect information. She's risking what to capture what? Was she so blind and dumb as to not see the power of the Lannisters on the throne? How does capturing Tyrion going to make Ned and her 2 daughters any safer? If she had managed to seize Tywin's Golden Boy, Jamie however things would have been different.

I don't really agree with you here. LF's very good at manipulating people. In this instance (the dagger) LF takes a bold action that ends up working out for him due to circumstances completely beyond his control. His lie about the dagger could very easily have backfired on him. It didn't.

And why couldn't the easily "backfirable" lie bounce back at LF? - (It worked) because Catelyn was an easily manipulated - the sort of leader who escalates hostilities into open conflict based upon "imperfect information".

Now of course we can blame House Lannister for overreacting. But that's like a fool complaining about getting bitten when he goes into the Lion enclosure and jabs at the beasts with a twig. Everyone in the 7 Kingdoms knew how treacherous and dangerous the Lannisters were. Catelyn should have known better. And so her actions were stupid, not justifiable and is part of a series of patterns which paints a very sad, disappointing, tragic and foolish character.

[lyvyathan]

Here is my defense of Catelyn: the story would be missing without her. She's a controversial character and I like her that way.

Oh for sure. If we didn't have Catelyn, Cersei, even Gregor, Vargo, Jingle Bell etc.. the world of ASOIAF would be a lesser place.

[birdsong66]

You don't go around kidnapping a rival member of one of the most powerful houses in the Seven Kingdoms based on the word of a man you kissed you as a child and you've hardly met in over a decade. Do you think that's logical? Justifiable? That's just plain stupid.

It is only because we have the benefit of all the POVs that we know Littlefinger likely should not be trusted. We also know that Robert has become, while on the Iron Throne, a shadow of the man he once was, but that doesn't stop Ned from trusting him, childhood friends and all.

So, given that Littlefinger risked his life for Catelyn as a young man, why, as an adult, should she wonder whether to trust him, or not? Both Robert and Ned risked their lives for one another during the rebellion...is this so very different?

Moreover, if her main role was to provide a 'good role model' for her children, as some have suggested, then I would call her quite successful as it is obvious that despite how she may or may not have made her resentments regarding Jon obvious, she managed to raise children who loved him regardless--strong, independent, honorable children.

[Nausicaä]

Robb did the same thing though.

Robb is a lord choosing his heir. Jon is a bastard. One has a right to dismiss Sansa's claim, the other does not.

I never wanted any harm to come to any of them, but it did.

Harm does not mean dead, the last time that I checked. Sansa has been harmed since being in the hands of the Lannisters. Jon may not be privy to all of the details, however, these are the same people who killed his family.

But he is talking about inheritance, on which Sansa's harm has no bearing. She's still alive, she's still mentally capable of ruling. And didn't they know by that point that she was no longer in hands of the Lannisters too? Her hindrance is only a husband that can perfectly well be shortened by a head. If she had a Lannister child, the situation would be different, but she doesn't.

[lyvyathan]

It is only because we have the benefit of all the POVs that we know Littlefinger likely should not be trusted. We also know that Robert has become, while on the Iron Throne, a shadow of the man he once was, but that doesn't stop Ned from trusting him, childhood friends and all.

So, given that Littlefinger risked his life for Catelyn as a young man, why, as an adult, should she wonder whether to trust him, or not? Both Robert and Ned risked their lives for one another during the rebellion...is this so very different?

Moreover, if her main role was to provide a 'good role model' for her children, as some have suggested, then I would call her quite successful as it is obvious that despite how she may or may not have made her resentments regarding Jon obvious, she managed to raise children who loved him regardless--strong, independent, honorable children.

You don't need the POVs to come to that conclusion. Its one thing to listen to a childhood friend whom you have not spoken to in 15 years, its quite another to embark on an extremely dangerous venture based upon his say so.

I'm not questioning her role as a mother - she seems to have done a pretty good job of that mayhaps? Even Jon turned out to be a decent honorable chap. But the books don't spend a great deal of time talking about her mothering skills. But it does mention Rickon's situation, and her sad inability to shake off her resentment against the bastard.

[lyvyathan]

2. Why would his owning brothels necessarily make Catelyn think he's going to lie to her about the dagger.

Because Pimps, brothel keepers, whores and yes, even bastards are not regarded very highly in Westeros.

[lyvyathan]

But, no, Jon’s rampaging fanboys must know better about the characters’ past experiences than GRRM himself.

How do you know what I think of the bastard? Wait, you're thinking just like Catelyn Tully - I understand now.

[Net-Viper X]

I always liked Cat, to put it blunty in her chapters "shit happens". She is the exact opposite of Dany who has been drudging along in the same plot for two books. Cat has moved the plot forward more than just about anyone with all the chaos that happends around or is caused by her. I don't really hold most of what she did against her, she was in way over her head and so desperate with fear over her childrens safety and all the quickly unfolding events that she clearly wasn't in her best frame of mind. Cat wasn't someone like the Sand Snakes or Asha Greyjoy, she was essentially a sheltered medieval house wife and was in no way prepared for what was to come.

As for how she treated Jon before the war began, I do feel she was wrong to be that way. A person shouldn't neglect a child because of his fathers mistakes, but I do understand why she was angry. The only fault I see is that her anger should have been directed at Ned for betraying his vows and her trust, not at the innocent child who didn't want to be a bastard any more than she did. Neglecting Jon while sparing Ned any wrath seemed kind of petty to me but not so much as to make me dislike her, like others have said, she didn't abuse him, she just neglected him and showed no effection.

Overall I think her chapters are generally eventful and entertaining to read, and I tend to find myself feeling sorry for her despite any mistakes she may have made and just can't bring myself to hate her for any of it. What she did to Brienne and Pod was rather cruel and distasteful, but considering she just watched her oldest son and his retinue murdered in front of her, then had her throat cut and lay dead in a river for three days before coming back as a face ripped zombie, one can understand her being a bit short on courtesy.