151 replies to this topic

[Lord Reek]

What I love most about ASoIaF is the "Game of thrones" that's constantly going on. The realpolitik and scheming really does it for me. I just started wondering: who would be considered real players in the game of thrones? With players I mean people who are consciously manipulating powerstructures to become king, getting others to become king or stay king (or hand of the king) or getting in really powerfull positions. For example: I do consider Cersei a player but not Joffry. So my list of players and who they are playing for:

Eddard (Stannis)
Jon Snow (Stannis)
Melissandre (Stannis)
Banker of Braavos (Stannis, even though he has not yet interfered in Westeros)
Catelyn ( Robb - even though she failed horribly, she tried to gain legitimacy through joining forces with Stannis and Renly)
Cersei (Herself, Joffry and Tommen)
Tywin (Himself, Joffry and Tommen)
Tyrion (Himself, Joffry, possibly Dany)
Arianne Martell (Myrcella)
Doran Martell (Dany, Viserys and possibly Aegon)
Oberyn Martell (Dany, Viserys)
Walder Frey as well as lots of other Freys (Robb, then Joffry and Tommen)
Roose Bolton (Joffry, I'm not counting Robb since he was just his bannermen and not really a player in the game of thrones then. Also: possibly himself if he wants to declare himself King in The North)
Varys (Dany, Viserys and Aegon)
Littlefinger (himself, even though it stays unclear)
Illyrio Mopatis (Dany, Viserys and Aegon)
Queen of Thorns (Margaery, through Robbert, Renly, Joffry or Tommen)
Mace Tyrell (Margaery, through Robbert, Renly, Joffry or Tommen)
Euron (Himself, through Dany and her dragons)

Quite a list. What's your take?

[Oni]

I have been looking at it from a chess stand point.  In my book there are four true players in the game of thrones...

Illyrio Mopatis (Aggressive strategist -  Turn your pawns into queens, and knights, and check mate your opponent before he knows whats happening)
Varys (Defensive Strategist -  Wait for your opponent to do something silly exposing his king, and then strike)
Littlefinger (Adaptive Strategist -  Keep your pieces constantly moving in ways that confuse your opponent into doing something stupid [like Castling])
Roose Bolton (Kill them all -  Often forgets that he could actually win by just checkmating the king, and instead opts for the destroy all pieces method [I often fall under this category unfortunately])

Edited by Oni, 11 October 2011 - 11:22 PM.

[Mark Antony]

Oni, on 11 October 2011 - 11:21 PM, said:

I have been looking at it from a chess stand point.  In my book there are four true players in the game of thrones...

Illyrio Mopatis (Aggressive strategist -  Turn your pawns into queens, and knights, and check mate your opponent before he knows whats happening)
Varys (Defensive Strategist -  Wait for your opponent to do something silly exposing his king, and then strike)
Littlefinger (Adaptive Strategist -  Keep your pieces constantly moving in ways that confuse your opponent into doing something stupid [like Castling])
Roose Bolton (Kill them all -  Often forgets that he could actually win by just checkmating the king, and instead opts for the destroy all pieces method [I often fall under this category unfortunately])

this is my list except Tywin would be on it when he was alive imo.

Edited by WuTangWesteros, 11 October 2011 - 11:38 PM.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Can someone be considered a major player and a pawn at the same time? Because Tywin for example, while mostly considered a good player of the Game of Thrones, was also Littlefinger's bitch and never even realized it.

[Gendry Waters]

Winterfell is Burning, on 12 October 2011 - 12:32 AM, said:

Can someone be considered a major player and a pawn at the same time? Because Tywin for example, while mostly considered a good player of the Game of Thrones, was also Littlefinger's bitch and never even realized it.

Disagree. Littlefinger is one my favourite characters but he stands no chance with Tywin. In fact I'd say the Vale was made more appealing when Tywin resumed the role of King's Hand.

As to the topic I think many of my favourite players will be mentioned but Roose Bolton and Euron Greyjoy definitely belong.

[Kadence]

Winterfell is Burning, on 12 October 2011 - 12:32 AM, said:

Can someone be considered a major player and a pawn at the same time? Because Tywin for example, while mostly considered a good player of the Game of Thrones, was also Littlefinger's bitch and never even realized it.

I think LF used Tywin very well - however that does not make Tywin his 'bitch' Tywin got good service from Littlefinger too. LF did kill Tywin's grandson...but while I'm sure Tywin would have killed LF if he knew, the death of Joffrey actually played to Tywin's long-term advantage, since Tywin was already having big problems dealing with Joffrey. So LF never truly damaged Tywin.

If anyone truly exploited Tywin it was Varys. First in Robert's Rebellion, it appears as if Varys is working against Aerys and while he didn't want Tywin to sack KL, he probably did want Aerys gone and Tywin helps in this. Then the current war works to Varys' advantage. And then Varys probably manipulates Tywin's own son into killing him, completely destabilizing Lannister power. Then he probably dooms them totally by killing Kevan himself. So not only did Varys use Tywin - once Tywin had served his purpose, he disposes of him and plots to destroy the Lannisters. That's well beyond anything LF or anybody ever did to Tywin. Varys is going to pretty much undo everything Tywin ever did, basically making all of Tywin's life and ambitions and scheming mean nothing.

Gendry Waters, on 12 October 2011 - 12:39 AM, said:

Disagree. Littlefinger is one my favourite characters but he stands no chance with Tywin. In fact I'd say the Vale was made more appealing when Tywin resumed the role of King's Hand.

LF would be at a large disadvantage vs. Tywin because Tywin had way more resources. Both are good players though LF seems better to me, he does more with less - lots of people could do a ton with Tywin's resources (albeit not everybody, as we see with Tytos). Although it's unclear also if LF would be as good from a position of public authority as Tywin is, and Tywin had skills as a general as well as his game of thrones skills.

[Lord Reek]

What about Cersei, Doran Martell and the Tyrells? Don't you consider them players? I'm not saying they are as good as let's say a Tywin or LF but they definitely play.

[Lord Reek]

Tyrion played a little game himself in ACoK, too.

[Tyrionthebest]

Lord Reek, on 12 October 2011 - 05:07 AM, said:

What about Cersei, Doran Martell and the Tyrells? Don't you consider them players? I'm not saying they are as good as let's say a Tywin or LF but they definitely play.

Cersei sucks at the game of thrones . Even LF said that she thinks she is better than she really is and we see this in AFFC .

[iNinja]

I think Bloodraven is a player who is playing on a different level than all of the people you mentioned. His pieces are Bran, Coldhands, The Reeds, Samwell, Arya and Jon Snow.

Edited by iNinja, 12 October 2011 - 07:23 AM.

[Oni]

Lord Reek, on 12 October 2011 - 05:07 AM, said:

What about Cersei, Doran Martell and the Tyrells? Don't you consider them players? I'm not saying they are as good as let's say a Tywin or LF but they definitely play.

I think they think they are players, but in the end however the Queen, knight, and Bishop while more useful then a Pawn are still just pieces being pushed around by others.

I think Martell might be a player, but to be honest he has yet to accomplish a whole lot.

Edited by Oni, 12 October 2011 - 07:57 AM.

[Luist311]

To me, the true players so far are Littlefinger and Varys. Varys has been playing since Aerys, LF was a nobody that played Lysa and Arryn to "give him" a job. HE also played Cat and Ned aggainst the Lannister, leading them to doom, played the Lannisters to give him Harrenhal and Lysa hand. He also played the Tyrells to kill Joff, and played Sansa. He also managed to play the Lords in the Vale in order to marry the heir (as far as he knows) of Winterfell to the possible heir of the Vale. He is a player or not?

The others so call "players", despite one or two excpetions, are no real players by merit. Basically they all inherited power, money, lands and men and rule and "play" by pure force. I am not saying that they are dumb or lack of skills, but i have serious doubts that so called "real players" as Tywin could have pulled the sort of stunt that Varys and LF have.

Edited by Luist311, 12 October 2011 - 08:21 AM.

[Gogossos]

Staying with the chess theme: I have three significant players still alive, those who can move the significant pieces (the lords and ladies) to their advantage. The nobles themselves aren't largely players themselves, they are pieces being moved around the board.

Jon (for himself) - he doesn't know it yet but he's playing a brilliant game putting himself into the vacant King in the North position, or something better, if he gets more strategic pieces.

Illyrio (for Aegon/Dany) - he's playing Varys (another player), he's got contacts with everyone of significance running away from Westeros and has money to put his plans into action. Watch out for this one.

Queen of Thorns (for Margaery) - I think she's played a brilliant, if not desperate, game in putting Marg on the Iron Throne but she faces a fight to keep her there and I think she used LF (another player) and is aware of what he's doing at the Vale, plus she almost pulled off a deal to unify the Reach with the North. However, due to the desperate nature of her moves she's bound to end up on the losing side, unless she reels in Tarly and starts again.

[Gonzagylot00]

Some really nice analysis in this thread.

One player that nobody has brought up yet is the new high Septon. I'd say getting the church remilitarized and putting the Queens up for trial constitutes a place in the Game of Thrones.

I'd also say that Stoneheart and The Brotherhood without Banners are kind of the anti-Game of Thrones.

[Domeric Bolton]

The faith militant is becoming a de facto kingmaker IMO. I think the sixth book will feature all the militant orders becoming alot more involved in the GoT, at least in King's Landing.

[Kadence]

iNinja, on 12 October 2011 - 07:06 AM, said:

I think Bloodraven is a player who is playing on a different level than all of the people you mentioned. His pieces are Bran, Coldhands, The Reeds, Samwell, Arya and Jon Snow.

Bloodraven is the uber-player. In his day he was a combination of Varys, Littlefinger and Tywin - plus magic. He set Jon to become LC with the raven stunt, and probably sent the direwolves. He's been manipulating the realm for 100 years. I think it's very clear that Bloodraven is the #1 player of all time, and no one else is a close second.

Oni, on 12 October 2011 - 07:57 AM, said:

I think Martell might be a player, but to be honest he has yet to accomplish a whole lot.

I think Doran is fairly useless. He set up Viserys+Arianne but then wouldn't do a single thing to help out the beggar king. He said he wanted to take away everything Tywin held dear yet did pretty much nothing to harm Tywin for 15 years. After Feast I thought Doran was a good player because I presumed he was who Varys was working for, but now I believe Doran is fairly crappy and ineffectual.

Gogossos, on 12 October 2011 - 09:40 AM, said:

The nobles themselves aren't largely players themselves, they are pieces being moved around the board.

Almost all the players are nobles. Even Littlefinger is a noble.

Quote

Illyrio (for Aegon/Dany) - he's playing Varys (another player), he's got contacts with everyone of significance running away from Westeros and has money to put his plans into action. Watch out for this one.

Varys is almost certainly the mastermind in this relationship. It was probably Varys who arranged Illyrio to marry Serra (his sister perhaps?) and I would be very surprised if the whole fake baby switch scheme didn't come from Varys. Find it hard to believe Illyrio came up with the notion to send away his own son. So Illyrio is not the one playing Varys, at all.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Kadence, on 12 October 2011 - 12:53 PM, said:

Varys is almost certainly the mastermind in this relationship. It was probably Varys who arranged Illyrio to marry Serra (his sister perhaps?) and I would be very surprised if the whole fake baby switch scheme didn't come from Varys. Find it hard to believe Illyrio came up with the notion to send away his own son. So Illyrio is not the one playing Varys, at all.

Indeed. Considering what Illyrio confides about his past, Varys seems to have always been the brains in that particular two-man-show - he was the one who came up with their business scheme, while Illyrio was more or less the hired muscle (well, blade). Of course that could all be part of an elaborate plan of great deception... but common sense points to Illyrio being either Vary's pawn, sidekick or at the most his ally - but not his superior in any way.

[blackseer]

We are forgetting the Stannis/Melisandre combo and Euron Crow's Eye. They may not be good players, but both are still in the game and have a few aces in their sleeves.

As for the best players, definitely LF and Varys/Illyrio so far. Tywin was a great player too, but he lost when he overlooked the best piece in the game so far (Tyrion).

[Davos' Middle Finger]

Doran is the most overrated player in the entire series.  He does practically nothing to ensure that any of his goals come to fruition.  He arranged the Arianne/Viserys pact, but nothing came of it, it was just a piece of paper.  He let his chosen contender for the Iron Throne become the Beggar King, a total joke who no one would follow, where he could have been getting him in contact with people who would be sympathetic to his cause, like Lords who had supported the Targaryens or sellswords like the Golden Company.

Edited by Davos' Middle Finger, 12 October 2011 - 03:53 PM.

[blackseer]

Davos, on 12 October 2011 - 03:52 PM, said:

Doran is the most overrated player in the entire series.  He does practically nothing to ensure that any of his goals come to fruition.  He arranged the Arianne/Viserys pact, but nothing came of it, it was just a piece of paper.  He let his chosen contender for the Iron Throne become the Beggar King, a total joke who no one would follow, where he could have been getting him in contact with people who would be sympathetic to his cause, like Lords who had supported the Targaryens or sellswords like the Golden Company.

I agree. I like the guy, but he is a bad player. He could've at least sent him to Norvos, where his wife family would take care of him.