Theon Greyjoy; Azor Ahai Reborn?

[The Great Cornholio!]

Somebody with a significant ammount of the blood of dragons is AA reborn imo. So that leaves Dany, Aegon, and Jon Snow if you beilieve Jon is the daughter of Ned's Sister and Rhaegar. I'd be shocked if it wasnt one of them.

I dont think blood of the dragon has anything to do with it. Was the original a Targaryen? Probably not. I think people get wrapped up with all the blood lines and less the clues the author gave us.

[Eyron]

The original AA was of the First men right? The last time "darkness gathered" was the start of age of Heroes IIRC.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

To paraphrase the prophecy (or at least that version of the prophecy), in a time of trouble and strife a warrior shall draw the sword from the flame and the sword will be called Lightbringer and by this he'll be known as AA.

Indeed, I forgot that Mel explicitely included that part in her account of the Asshaii prophecy. Thanks!

[Pliskin]

The original AA was of the First men right? The last time "darkness gathered" was the start of age of Heroes IIRC.

There are three stories/prophecies that got melted up :

- The legend of Azor Ahai from the red priests and the prophecy of his return.

- The legend of the Last Hero that vanquished the Others with dragonsteel or something like that.

- The prophecy of The Prince that was Promised.

So, if Azor Ahai and the Last Hero are the same perso, then yes, AA is from the First Men. But we can't be sure.

[Eyron]

There are three stories/prophecies that got melted up :

- The legend of Azor Ahai from the red priests and the prophecy of his return.

- The legend of the Last Hero that vanquished the Others with dragonsteel or something like that.

- The prophecy of The Prince that was Promised.

So, if Azor Ahai and the Last Hero are the same perso, then yes, AA is from the First Men. But we can't be sure.

Absolutely, we can't be sure. I think the prophecies have been mixed up and that they are probably flawed.

I am biased in my hopes for AA/PTWP/NEW HERO... I'm kind of tired of the dragons "awesomeness" and don't think they will save the realm one bit, so I'm hoping for a more grim version of the fulfilling of the prophecies, and not so clean cut... Jon will rise again, with his mind on vengeance and destruction. Bran will be sucked in by the Children of the forest, and they have big plans for the Wall and the Realm of men... Bran for Nights King!

This time the AA (or whatever, it will be Jon I think) will be fighting for the other side. The long summer lasted to long and balance needs to be restored IMHO.

In any case I don't think it will be Theon. I like him, sort of, but he is not hero-material, he can't grasp a sword properly any more.

[lordthade]

Yep.

We're desperately trying to rationalize our hopes, or just enjoying trying to connect dots, but the reality is AA may not even be recognized by most people as such. It's just as likely people will be far more impressed by the dragons than the guy with the sparkly sword.

[Pliskin]

Maybe Lightbringer was a dragon.

And maybe dragonsteel refers to a dragon too, instead of Valyrian steel. Sort of dragon's fangs.

[tearloch]

Maybe Victarion is AA.

He was reborn (his sudden change in perspective) amid salt (on his ship) and fire (the flames the red priest used to save his arm).

Maybe Lightbringer is actually Victarion's arm? Didn't he kill his wife with that arm????

[Eyron]

Maybe Victarion is AA.

He was reborn (his sudden change in perspective) amid salt (on his ship) and fire (the flames the red priest used to save his arm).

Maybe Lightbringer is actually Victarion's arm? Didn't he kill his wife with that arm????

Noooo, that would be just awful :bawl:

He would make a horrible hero... He sacrificed all those innocent girls and boys to please R'hllor, that was bloody cold. I would rather have Brienne, Jamie, Davos or Theon any day.

Second after Jon is little Edric Dayne on my list. The lord of Starfall, wielding Dawn! I know he's just twelve or thirteen but he has hero-potential if anyone.

[Black Crow]

There are three stories/prophecies that got melted up :

- The legend of Azor Ahai from the red priests and the prophecy of his return.

- The legend of the Last Hero that vanquished the Others with dragonsteel or something like that.

- The prophecy of The Prince that was Promised.

So, if Azor Ahai and the Last Hero are the same person, then yes, AA is from the First Men. But we can't be sure.

I'm not at all convinced Azor Ahai and the Last Hero are one and the same. As told AA sounds like an all-conquering warlord while the Last Hero was all alone and being pursued through the snow when Old Nan was interrupted, so GRRM was hiding something from us there.

As to the Prince that was promised, in the House of the Undying vision Rhaegar says that the Prince that was Promised has the Song of Ice and Fire, whereas AA is the champion of the Lord of Light (and Fire).

The key, I suspect, is what we're not yet told about the Last Hero and what happened to him. Did he find the Children and did he enter their service in return for easing off on the Long Winter or because some truth was revealed to him? I know at first sight it might be unlikely, but the Undying prophesies stressed the threes, so could it mean the Last Hero representing Ice and AA representing Fire, with the Prince that was promised representing the balance between Ice and Fire which needs to be restored after getting upset in the War for the Dawn?

[Eyron]

Good point on the last hero Black Crow. That would be a piece to my puzzle that would fit just right in. I'm not sure what I think the outcome will be on the prophecies, but something along those lines. I am pretty sure that one of our protagonists (Jon and/or Bran) will learn something about the Others and Children of the Forest that will make us think again.

I think it is much to simple to look at this as a war on darkness/winter, and the AA swinging lightbringer to victory. There is as you say a story that GRRM has kept from us, probably because it would be to revealing. And because there is a twist coming up that he don't want to be foreshadowed at all. Well, I guess that maybe rules out Bran as Nights King (foreshadowed in Old Nans story) but there will be something in that direction.

He knows us too well.

[sarah.jenice]

I have also noticed how that story of the Last Hero was cut off and really want to know the rest, but you are probably right that the outcome may be more than we can know at this point in the story. I do still think that the Last Hero and AA are the same person and I've transcribed the text to help everyone with the speculation.

To me, the characters have mostly all gone through some type of transformation through the course of the series and that is why we can link so many of them to a prophesy about rebirth (Theon, Bran, Jamie, Dany, Brienne, Arya). With the growth of each character and bad/good things that have happened to them, pretty much all of them have changed in some way, and whether they have changed for the good is not always certain. Theon for instance was first on the side of the Starks (I feel like the Starks are good guys), then he switched to his father's side and helped take over the North and even went to Winterfell and did many bad things there (hated him for that) and then we find out after much suffering and abuse that he is kind of reborn with a new perspective on life and may (possibly) be back on the Stark's side. I do not think that makes him AA reborn, but he has gone through a lot of character growth.

The only book I have with me is A Clash of Kings so here's what I have to help.

A Clash of Kings (paperback; Page 148)

Davos

Melisandre was robed all in scarlet satin and blood velvet, her eyes as red as the great ruby that glistened at her throat as if it too were afire. "In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him." She lifted her voice, so it carried out over the gathered host. "Azor Ahai, beloved of R'hollor! The Warrior of Light, the Son of Fire! Come forth, your sword awaits you! Come forth and take it into your hand!"

[The there are a few lines about Stannis stepping forward to go grab the sword. I also would like to note that Mel chose to bring forth Lightbringer from a fire that burnt the Seven and specifically stuck the sword through the heart of the Mother.]

He went straight to the Mother, grasped the sword with his gloved hand, and wrenched it free of the burning wood with a single hard jerk. Then he was retreating, the sword held high, jade green flames swirling around cherry-red steel.

"A sword of fire!" shouted Queen Selyse. Ser Axell Florent and the other queen's men took up the cry. "A sword of fire! It burns! It burns! A sword of fire!" Melisandre lifted her hands above her head. "Behold! A sign was promised, and now a sign is seen! Behold Lightbringer! Azor Ahai has come again! All hail the Warrior of Light! All hail the Son of Fire!"

[Then everyone shouts some more and Mel sings, but I really think there are a few more sentences that are really important and really show how fake Stannis’s Lightbringer is]

Thrust in the ground, Lightbringer still glowed ruddy hot, but the flames that clung to the sword were dwindling and dying. He [stannis] took the queen by the elbow and escorted her back into Dragonstone, leaving Lightbringer where it stood. The red woman remained a moment to watch as Devan knelt with Byren Farring and rolled up the burnt and blackened sword in the king’s leather cloak. The Red Sword of Heroes looks a proper mess, though Davos.

Now I didn’t notice this until rereading the book, but if the Lightbringer that we see here at the beginning of Clash, the Lightbringer that Mel proclaims is the real deal and makes Stannis AA, ends up “burnt and blackened,” what is the Lightbringer that Stannis has the next time we see it?

The next description of the sword is A Clash of Kings, Page 478, Catelyn – He [stannis] yanked his longsword from its scabbard. The steel gleamed strangely bright in the wan sunlight, now red, now yellow, now blazing white. The air around it seemed to shimmer, as if from heat.

We know that Mel must have used a glamor to try to make it look like Stannis has Lightbringer (still can't figure out her end game), but she must have used a different sword later after the first one burnt up. I think that is an important detail along with what Maester Aemon says when he sees the sword and helps prove that Mel is trying to force Stannis into fitting into a prophesy that really doesn't apply to him naturally.

This is going to be a super long post, but I think it really helps clarify the speculation when you can see the actual text.

A Clash of Kings (paperback; Page 154)

Davos

“That was not Lightbringer, my friend.” (Salladhor Saan)

The sudden shift in subject left Davos uneasy. “Sword?”

“A sword plucked from fire, yes. Men tell me things, it is my pleasant smile. How shall a burnt sword serve Stannis?” (Saan)

“A burning sword,” corrected Davos.

“Burnt,” said Salladhor Saan, “and be glad of that, my friend. Do you know the tale of the forging of Lightbringer? I shall tell it to you. It was a time when darkness lay heavy on the world. To oppose it, the hero must have a hero’s blade, oh like none that had ever been. And so for thirty days and thirty nights Azor Ahai labored sleepless in the temple, forging a blade in the sacred fires. Heat and hammer and fold, heat and hammer and fold, oh, yes until the sword was done. Yet when he plunged it into water to temper the steel it burst asunder. Being a hero, it was not for him to shrug and go in search of excellent grapes such as these, so again he began. The second time it took him fifty days and fifty nights, and this sword seemed even finer than the first. Azor Ahai captured a lion, to temper the blade by plunging it through the beast’s heart, but once more the steel shattered and split. Great was his woe and great was his sorrow then, for he knew what he must do. A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. ‘Nissa Nissa,’ he said to her, for that was her name, ‘bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.’ She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes. Now do you see my meaning? Be glad that it is just a burnt sword that His Grace pulled from that fire. Too much light can hurt the eyes, my friend, and fire burns.”

I really notice a few key things in Salla’s story:

1. The sword is made from steel (I’ve seen other posts that talk about metals used in the series)

2. It is the Red Sword of Heroes so it must be in the Age of Heroes so it is possible that Azor Ahai is the Last Hero, but I don’t understand why the people of Asshai would know this story and not the people of Westeros

3. The sword required long labor and giving up something that is dearly loved and the sword would not burn up from the fire. It seems it would burn like fire so I can see the dragons maybe being the sword in a metaphor because they are fire made into flesh.

I know Dany has done some controversial things, but in my humble opinion, she is the only character who comes close to anything like the story of Azor Ahai. She is impervious to fire so she could reach into a fire and get out a sword. She gave up her husband, her son and, like Nissa Nissa, her own blood, sould, strength and courage when she walked into the fire to bring the dragons into this world.

[Black Crow]

Amidst the general expectation that AA will be the great hero who saves the day against the wicked Others, its interesting to note Salladhor Saan's warning:

"Be glad that it is just a burnt sword that His Grace pulled from that fire. Too much light can hurt the eyes, my friend, and fire burns.”

Which sounds not unlike Maester Aemon's comment that cold preserves while fire consumes

[Black Crow]

I know Dany has done some controversial things, but in my humble opinion, she is the only character who comes close to anything like the story of Azor Ahai. She is impervious to fire so she could reach into a fire and get out a sword. She gave up her husband, her son and, like Nissa Nissa, her own blood, sould, strength and courage when she walked into the fire to bring the dragons into this world.

I agree. There is a respectable body of opinion that Dany is a touch too obvious to be AA, but I reckon myself that its a double bluff and that while Dany is obviously AA, it will turn out as I've suggested above that AA is not the saviour of the world at all, but will need to be defeated in order to restore the balance

[Eyron]

Just a thought...

About maester Aemon, he wanted Sam to tell the archmaester of the Citadel they must send a maester to Dany, to help and teach her. That had me confused.

He must know that the Citadel (except Marwyn and his henchmen) does not want the powers of magic to grow, it's their mantra and anyone dabbling with magic is cast out, like Qyburn. They teach the way of science as the means to better the world, which is in direct opposition to unreliable magic. Dany and her dragons are living examples of the magic they oppose. I wonder what he wanted the maester to teach her.

Could it be something about the dangers of dragons and fire (how it consumes life/magic/something that disturbs the balance in the world)?

[Eyron]

A Clash of Kings (paperback; Page 148)

Davos

Melisandre was robed all in scarlet satin and blood velvet, her eyes as red as the great ruby that glistened at her throat as if it too were afire. "In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him." She lifted her voice, so it carried out over the gathered host. "Azor Ahai, beloved of R'hollor! The Warrior of Light, the Son of Fire! Come forth, your sword awaits you! Come forth and take it into your hand!"

One thing that comes to mind when I read this is something that's been nagging me since Melisandre made her shadowbabies. It is that she says the shadows are not of evil because light is what creates shadows. So in the name of light she creates the shadows that murder Renly and Cortnay Penrose (allegedly). To fuel her magic she needs to burn people to death.

Now, the AA is suppose to create light in darkness. That's quite the opposite. And I wonder what will fuel that magic.

This is one of the things that has me confused about the red priests, Melisandre, R'hllor and the AA.

I know Dany has done some controversial things, but in my humble opinion, she is the only character who comes close to anything like the story of Azor Ahai. She is impervious to fire so she could reach into a fire and get out a sword. She gave up her husband, her son and, like Nissa Nissa, her own blood, sould, strength and courage when she walked into the fire to bring the dragons into this world.

Ah but have you not read the convincing theory that Jon will rise as AA in the storage room under the wall? He will rise amidst salty sausages and smoked meat! :D I would so love it if this happens...

BTW Where ever did you read about metal theories? Could it have anything to do with iron and bronze? :dunno:

I am convinced there is something to be revealed about the metals...

[Black Crow]

One thing that comes to mind when I read this is something that's been nagging me since Melisandre made her shadowbabies. It is that she says the shadows are not of evil because light is what creates shadows. So in the name of light she creates the shadows that murder Renly and Cortnay Penrose (allegedly). To fuel her magic she needs to burn people to death.

Now, the AA is suppose to create light in darkness. That's quite the opposite. And I wonder what will fuel that magic.

This is one of the things that has me confused about the red priests, Melisandre, R'hllor and the AA.

To understand this you need to embrace the Darkness - literally - just as Bloodraven tells Bran.

Darkness hides and protects you and as you embrace it your eyes adapt and you can see in it.

Fire, however, destroys that. First and obviously by illuminating things which might prefer to stay concealed, but also on the other hand by casting black shadows can hide things that you would otherwise be able to see in the dark but can't because the light and the flickering plays hell with your night vision.

In metaphysical terms shadows are therefore a false darkness created by fire and light to blind and deceive, rather than the true sheltering darkness of the Children and Bloodraven

[Black Crow]

BTW Where ever did you read about metal theories? Could it have anything to do with iron and bronze? :dunno:

I am convinced there is something to be revealed about the metals...

I've not come across anything in the context of the books, but in traditional mythology Faeries/Elves cannot stand the touch of cold iron - just as here the White Walkers dissolve on contact with obsidian

[ghost the direwolf]

To paraphrase the prophecy (or at least that version of the prophecy), in a time of trouble and strife a warrior shall draw the sword from the flame and the sword will be called Lightbringer and by this he'll be known as AA.

Basically, I think all the business of smoke and salt and red stars etc. comes under the heading of signs and portents. As discussed all over the place there are any number of possible candidates who fit the smoke, salt etc. bits, but its only the drawing of the sword which will turn the "true" warrior into AA - complicated of course by the likelihood its a metaphorical rather than actual sword

i agree to that.Ibeleive it will be either jon or jaimie as they both had dreams about swords on fire.

[ARYa_Nym]

Jaime's dream:

"As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered...the fire took on the color of steel itself so it burned with a silvery-light, and the gloom pulled back...Brienne's sword took flame as well, burning silvery blue."