Will Roslin Frey die in childbirth?

[solidsnake]

I think Sansa is an empty headed vessel, like Daisy Fay in the Great Gatsby. She takes no responsibility for her fate. Why didn't she deck LF when he kissed her? Didn't she even have that 'instinct' to protect herself!

"No, daddy. My dead father never kissed me like that!" :cool4:

Sansa has probably the most boring POV of all the characters in the book, not to mention betraying her father and going to Cersei behind his back.. just a dim wit , who did the worst thing of all - betray her family. Lies about Nymeria , gets her direwolf killed, betrays Ned , gets her father killed - she is basically a disgrace to the wolf pack. Does not belong. A gutless wench through and through.

[Light a wight tonight]

However it turns out, I hope that Sansa never returns to Winterfell. She has too little of the north in her, and doesn't belong there.

Actually just kill Sansa please, I am sick to death of that useless mewly brat.

To everybody who replied to the above post, ol' Osric hasn't been active since January.

As to the actual topic, Lyanna Stark has it fight in her post #26. Small-framed women give natural birth as well as bigger ones.

[James Arryn]

...and I think she genuinely loves or is at least fond of Edmure.

"As many as three or as few as no shots fired."

[UnbentFury]

I think Sansa is an empty headed vessel, like Daisy Fay in the Great Gatsby. She takes no responsibility for her fate. Why didn't she deck LF when he kissed her? Didn't she even have that 'instinct' to protect herself!

"No, daddy. My dead father never kissed me like that!" :cool4:

However it turns out, I hope that Sansa never returns to Winterfell. She has too little of the north in her, and doesn't belong there.

Actually just kill Sansa please, I am sick to death of that useless mewly brat.

I'm not particularly fond of Sansa but what does this have to do with the actual topic? :rolleyes:

[evita mgfs]

Sansa has probably the most boring POV of all the characters in the book, not to mention betraying her father and going to Cersei behind his back.. just a dim wit , who did the worst thing of all - betray her family. Lies about Nymeria , gets her direwolf killed, betrays Ned , gets her father killed - she is basically a disgrace to the wolf pack. Does not belong. A gutless wench through and through.

:agree: I didn't think I would admit disliking a Stark, but Sansa doesn't seem to have the survivor instinct. Who can teach her? Her POV's are troublesome. When I reread, I even question her observations. Is she drunk at Joffrey's wedding, or what?

I really started to dislike her when she was with Tyrion. He was so tender and gentle with her, and she treats him like dirt. But she lets LF kiss her? Tyrion never kissed her! It is not fair! :bawl:

[The Storm Queen]

:agree: I didn't think I would admit disliking a Stark, but Sansa doesn't seem to have the survivor instinct. Who can teach her? Her POV's are troublesome. When I reread, I even question her observations. Is she drunk at Joffrey's wedding, or what?

I really started to dislike her when she was with Tyrion. He was so tender and gentle with her, and she treats him like dirt. But she lets LF kiss her? Tyrion never kissed her! It is not fair! :bawl:

Yes how could that ungrateful twelve year old girl possible not be into a man twice her age, who is a member of her family´s enemy family, who fought for said family, who played along with her forced marriage and how is known to regulary frequent brothels? What happened to her is not fair, being forced to marry into the family who tries to eradicate your family, being married without any protection, without any power base at court etc.

Concerning LF, which options did she have? Openly fighting back, and then? Fleeing from a mountain stronghold with only one guarded way out? Please...Even if she managed this where is she supposed to go? Remember she has no money and is accused of regicide. Where should she go in a war torn country? Unlike Arya she is too far along in her physical development thus having no chance to pose as a boy. She would be raped or killed after meeting the first mountain tribe people.

[Beets]

Yes how could that ungrateful twelve year old girl possible not be into a man twice her age, who is a member of her family´s enemy family, who fought for said family, who played along with her forced marriage and how is known to regulary frequent brothels? What happened to her is not fair, being forced to marry into the family who tries to eradicate your family, being married without any protection, without any power base at court etc.

Concerning LF, which options did she have? Openly fighting back, and then? Fleeing from a mountain stronghold with only one guarded way out? Please...Even if she managed this where is she supposed to go? Remember she has no money and is accused of regicide. Where should she go in a war torn country? Unlike Arya she is too far along in her physical development thus having no chance to pose as a boy. She would be raped or killed after meeting the first mountain tribe people.

:agree:

Also - "she has no survivor instinct"? SHE LIVED AT KL BEFORE, DURING, AND AFTER THE BBW. SHE SURVIVED JOFF. If Arya had been in her place, I guarantee you that she would have punched Joff in his fat stupid face and had her head mounted on a spike within a week. Sansa's done a great job surviving thus far, IMO.

[David Selig]

I really started to dislike her when she was with Tyrion. He was so tender and gentle with her, and she treats him like dirt. But she lets LF kiss her? Tyrion never kissed her! It is not fair! :bawl:

Sure, everyone knows any decent 12 year old girl forcibly married to a member of a family which slaughtered her own has to be deeply loving and thankful to her husband. Oh, wait...

Tyrion fans really amaze me sometimes with their warped perspective.

[Miryana]

Roslin and the baby dying in childbirth would certainly be the easy way out of the problem that a Frey stands to become the legal heir to Riverrun even if the Tullys recover it. The other likely alternative is the Lannisters/Freys killing them and Edmure to secure their own claim.

I really started to dislike her when she was with Tyrion. He was so tender and gentle with her, and she treats him like dirt. But she lets LF kiss her? Tyrion never kissed her! It is not fair! :bawl:

Tyrion married a 12-year-old abuse victim against her will and molested her before he realised that she didn't want him and that doing more would be rape. He participated in the destruction of her family and in her abuse; he kept her captive because it benefited his own family and didn't stop her physical abuse until the public incident that might have risked Jaime's safety if the Starks retaliated, and his agreement to marry her in a surprise wedding denied her the Tyrell marriage she herself had agreed to and which would have gotten her away from Joffrey. But it's treating him like dirt to be honest about the lack of sexual attraction and to show cold courtesy? It's unfair that he didn't kiss her (though he did grope her naked body), because the girl's consent and interest in the man are entirely irrelevant if he happens to want her? And if a girl is in a position where she can't say no without risking her safety, as Sansa is with Littlefinger, she's to be blamed for what is done to her?

I'll never stop pointing out the absurdity of the idea that Sansa treated Tyrion badly because it's unnervingly close to real life attitudes about how girls are obliged to give it up to Nice Guys and bitches if they think it has any meaning at all that they don't want the boy.

[Rhaegarsjoy]

After all that about the Freys being accursed for violating guess rights, it would be a reward to have riverun being inherited by a Frey.

[Lady Winter Rose]

A petite frame is not a hindrance to give birth in real life. A history of problems with childbirth could potentially be worse, but if Roslin's mother was built the same way and gave birth to five healthy children, there is no need to believe that Roslin has an inherent difficulty in giving birth, physically. Unless Westeros physiology is vastly different from real life physiology, that is.

In medieval times petite women were in danger if they try to give birth, today not. Also, it doesn't matter how many children her mother bear, her mother could be just lucky then.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Not really sure why people keep saying this. It's not apparent, but going by their family words, Arya is definitely more Tully than any of her siblings. ...

Yes, it is also fascinating that both girls mirror one of their parents, ironically the one they are not the closest to. Sansa shows Lancel the same mercy during Blackwater as Eddard showed towards Cersei in the Godswood scene. Arya on the other hand has the same thirst for revenge than her mother.

I have a somewhat different take on that: I think that the current Stark generation mirrors the previous one.

Robb was pretty much his father's son.

Arya is obviously a copy of her aunt, Lyanna.

Rickon is still little, but if we judge from what we've seen, he'll be just as wild as his uncle, Brandon.

Bran, IMO mirrors Benjen, because he goes North to serve a greater purpose like him.

And Sansa, I think takes after her mother - both in looks and in conduct.

[Selyxi]

In medieval times petite women were in danger if they try to give birth, today not. Also, it doesn't matter how many children her mother bear, her mother could be just lucky then.

Lyanna Stark is correct. "Childbearing hips" are a bit of a myth. Small hips don't necessarily reflect the size of the pelvic opening that the baby needs to pass through, and large hips can still come with a pelvic opening that is too oval, more triangular, or with certain bony landmarks that are too prominent or to too angled to allow a baby's head through. IRL, you can't determine these things without an imaging study. Women also have some pelvic changes during pregnancy. Things get looser or remodel themselves slightly to facilitate birth.

I'm also fairly certain maternal mortality in the past was due more to infection or hemorrhage (due to things like placenta previa, which is what I imagine killed Lyanna if R=L=J) than difficult labor (though that was still a common cause and can also increase you risk of the first two causes I mentioned) and your body frame has nothing to do with those first two things.

Now... whether George knows any of this and has taken it into consideration or whether he's using Catelyn's opinion of Roslyn's hips to suggest she may have complications during childbirth is a completely different story.

[Branston Snow]

I think having Roslin suffer for the actions of her family is just the sort of thing George Martin would do. Remember Doran Martell's speech? "The children always pay the price." Zombie!Catelyn will kill her horribly if she gets her hands on her, regardless of the fact that she was coerced or that Edmure loves her.

[Booknerd2]

It makes sense that the loveliest of Walder Frey's children die, especially that she does seem fond of Edmure. The innocents get caught in the crossfire.

And Edmure isn't safe either. He is so wishy-washy and milquetoast, I see him out of the series too eventually.

Those two hit it off to well at their wedding. It doesn't bode well.

[Mrs_Darcy]

Even if Roslyn and the child surivve, I honestly cannot see the Riverlords accepting her as their Paramount Lady or her child/children as their future liege lords.

IMO, Edmure should get an annulment of his marriage to Roslin as soon as it is safe for him to do so and declare his child a bastard. This does not mean, that he should not take care of it, but I really see now way for this child to inherit without causing widespread rebellion in the Riverlands.

If Edmure does not want to get an annulment he should abdicate in favor of his Stark nephews/nieces, so someone who is not related to Lord Frey can inherit.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Something that just occured to me: Why do so many fans confuse characters being sympathic with being innocent?

Roslin, Jaime, Tyrion, Lancel, there are other characters as well. They are all guilty of capital crimes warranting the death penalty, no doubt about it. But they are portrayed symphatic and the fanbase assembles to excuse their crimes, wishing to spare them punishment. I'm not excluding myself, I wish some favorites of mine to get off scot-free as well. But it wouldn't be justice, rather flat-out favoritism based on sympathy.

Maybe GRRM want to show that true justice is hard. Especially on the judge.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

If the baby is a boy, Edmure dies. And I could see Roslin being so devastated the she kills her child and herself. Or she allies with Brynden Tully to take out the Freys. Brynden would also be named Lord Protector for the Riverlands until the child came of age, and he'd be raised to hate the Freys.

If it's a girl, she won't inherit and there's a chance that the three of them will be able to stick around for a while.

[WeddinGuest]

Something that just occured to me: Why do so many fans confuse characters being sympathic with being innocent?

Roslin, Jaime, Tyrion, Lancel, there are other characters as well. They are all guilty of capital crimes warranting the death penalty, no doubt about it. But they are portrayed symphatic and the fanbase assembles to excuse their crimes, wishing to spare them punishment. I'm not excluding myself, I wish some favorites of mine to get off scot-free as well. But it wouldn't be justice, rather flat-out favoritism based on sympathy.

Maybe GRRM want to show that true justice is hard. Especially on the judge.

Actually, there is doubt, and I'm sure GRRM meant there to be doubt. Why have Roslin cry through the wedding, when he could have had her act just like Marg at the PW? Why make a point of Edmure forgiving her? I think that Roslin has far less culpability than Jaime or Tyrion. You could certainly argue that she was an accomplice to the Red Wedding, but she did not physically kill or hurt anyone the way Jaime or Tyrion did. Comparing her to Lancel is closer, as both were under the influence of very powerful older relatives who had a lot of control over them.

Now, though GRRM makes Westeros to be like the Wild West of lore, and gives the impression that there were no codified laws or punishments for anything and "justice" was just a free-for-all, however this is not true of the historical times he based Westeros on. In modern law courts, there are many, many gradations of "unlawful killing". (1st vs 2nd degree murder, degrees of manslaughter, etc.) Providing every killer with the exact same sentence (life imprisonment in most countries) would not be just at all, me thinks. Not that I'm a lawyer (though I've served on juries), and GRRM isn't either, but the idea that "anyone who could be linked to any crime deserves as much punishment as the actual active perpetrators or the masterminds" seems way too simplistic to me.

[the conquoring bastard25]

if she dies in child birth that saves Jon from having to hunt her down and kill her and her child. Win win if the brat does in the process as well