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Eddard’s mother, aka ‘Lady Stark’


kissdbyfire

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I think you have this entirely backwards. He throws away meaningless details like nothing, he holds on to important details for a long time.

If something is not a secret and is going to be important later, it should be mentioned early. Springing something on the reader just before it becomes important is bad writing. If this particular gun was going to be fired, it would already be on the mantlepiece. GRRM has had plenty of opportunities to spell out the full heritage of Ned's mother, in the early chapters, in the appendices even, yet he has chosen not to. Why omit this, unless it's completely irrelevant to the plot?

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If something is not a secret and is going to be important later, it should be mentioned early. Springing something on the reader just before it becomes important is bad writing. If this particular gun was going to be fired, it would already be on the mantlepiece. GRRM has had plenty of opportunities to spell out the full heritage of Ned's mother, in the early chapters, in the appendices even, yet he has chosen not to. Why omit this, unless it's completely irrelevant to the plot?

A conspicuous gap could be considered a "gun" on its own. When dozens of insignificant characters have lineages described back 2-3 generations it easily draws the eye back to Ned's mother as if to say "what's going on here..."

If the important point is her lineage, how would you set it up in order to reveal it later? Or are you suggesting Jon's true parentage should be in the appendix as well? Just because you don't recognize the "gun" doesn't mean it's not there.

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A conspicuous gap could be considered a "gun" on its own. When dozens of insignificant characters have lineages described back 2-3 generations it easily draws the eye back to Ned's mother as if to say "what's going on here..."

If the important point is her lineage, how would you set it up in order to reveal it later? Just because you don't recognize the "gun" doesn't mean it's not there.

How would I reveal it? I'd mention it in passing in AGOT, because the beginning is the part where you reveal these kinds of expository details. Presumably everyone at Winterfell knows where Ned's mother came from, including all 7 non-Dany AGOT POVs. The conspicuousness of this particular omission is not evidence that it's important, it's evidence that it's irrelevant. It's not like R+L=J, which is a secret - it's common knowledge and would therefore be revealed if it were going to be important. How fucking lame would it be if suddenly in TWOW it's said that Ned's mother was from House X and all of a sudden House X enter the story in an important way when we never even heard of them before? No. GRRM is better than that.

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she could be the daughter of a wildling, someone before mentioned that they dont talk about her because is shamefull to the family, well marrying the daughter of a wildling rape would be shamefull. Because the flints live far north would make sense that some wildlings crossed the walls and took flint girls, perhaps the one who did that might even be a warg


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What if Ned's mother was a Reyne or. Tarbek? That would add some story zest.

Otherwise my guesses for Ned's mom are a Dayne, or a child of Duncan the Small and Jenny of Oldstones

All would make sense in terms of the revenge thing.

Reynes and Tarbeks revenge for what Tywin did.

Dayne well... Because they are Dornish and the Dornish seem quite revenge obsessed

Duncan the small child - revenge would be related to the tragedy at Summerhall

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I did some looking at families of the North. The only extinct ones are the Greystarks and Woodfoots. There's no time of when the Woodfoots went extinct so that's an option, but they haven't really come into the story so the only surprise would be because there is apparently no connection to the rest of the books. It has been mentioned that Night's King could have been a Woodfoot. Of course that only works if Old Nan is wrong.



I think a connection to Skagos would be good (that would make her father a Crowl, Magnar, or Stane) but I have another idea as well...



House Marsh. If Jon is dead that makes Bowen a kinslayer (albeit distant kin). Someone mentioned the connection of animal sigils; the Marsh coat of arms has ten frogs on it. House Marsh is located in the Neck, and the only member mentioned so far has been Bowen. Plenty of room for surprises.



As to whether GRRM would leave something out deliberately rather than plant early hints...there's a very good reason an author can leave that kind of thing up in the air. Martin didn't know himself the full identity of Ned's mother at the beginning. Why? Because he left it open in case he needed to forge a family connection somewhere down the line. This fits well with several of the theories in this thread, but rather argues against a Targ identity specifically for Ned's mother (still possible for another generation though).


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Precisely my point. No, we don't know her name, we don't know what house she comes from, we know nothing of this woman. And I definitely think there is something there, with GRRM being so thorough and then there's nothing about her? Not buying it.

She was a flint of the mountain clans
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The Princess and the Queen has examples of how quickly houses can die out during a war. I'm at work and don't have the book with me so I can only think of one specific house now (Deddings), whose members are specifically mentioned as dying during the chaos in King's Landing. A lot of other knightly or lordly houses are mentioned during the battle descriptions that seem important for the time period, but aren't mentioned in any other books or the Ice and Fire canon.



Ned's mother easily could have come from a family like this from the North, but had its members killed at the Trident or during other battles during Robert's Rebellion. It's a possibility. But I think she'll be from a house that will still have some importance within the last part of the story. Seems like Skagos is a safe bet, because why else would Osha take a toddler there? Even if he does have a direwolf protector, surely she'd have more chance at safety heading towards Greywater, the Last Hearth or White Harbor. We won't know until the next book comes out.


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  • 2 months later...

If you don't want spoilers then skip this post.. :devil:



Lord Eddard's mother is no other than Lady Lyarra of House Stark, daughter of Lord Rodrik of House Stark aka "The Wondering Wolf" and Lady Arya of House Flint.. She married her first cousin once removed, Lord Rickard of House Stark, son of Lord Edwyle of House Stark and Lady Marna of House Locke. Lord Edwyle on the other hand is the son of Lord William of House Stark and Lady Melantha of House Blackwood..


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Can I crackpot? I'm gonna go ahead.

The dark eyed youth with the 3weirwood arrows = Brandon Snow

Half brother to Torrhen Stark (The last King of Winter). Brandon wanted to assasinate Aegon's dragons.

If he was an archer like our bran (we are told he was a good archer in The first book are we not?) then his plan might have been shooting a weirwood arrow through a dragon eye.

But anyway after this vision the men he sees are different.. That is because they are not just Starks but Kings of Winter, he also remembers the faces from the crypt, The first to die has the best spot in the cript so he would pass them more often.

Then the white haired woman would be Stark/winterfell history ground zero this obviously due to the bronze, extremist old god worship..

So in short, in the last visions he just sees Stark/Winterfell history aka his own life line throughout the centuries. Me thinks.

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  • 11 months later...

First Vision: Young Ned wishing Jon and Robb can be as brothers. After Robert's Rebellion, best guess date, Late 283 AL or 284 AL.

Second Vision: Child Lyanna playing swords with child Benjen. Lyanna was born 267 AL so best guess date, 274 AL - 279 AL.

Third Vision: Naked chick emerging from pool. Must be "Lady Stark," pregnant with Brandon. Has to be Eddard/Brandon's mother because it fits in the time being chronological. She wants a son to avenge her so she doesn't already have a son, must be Brandon. Brandon was born in 260 AL or 261 AL so best guess date is 259 AL or 260 AL.

Fourth Vision: Really tall, young knight kisses a slender girl. Most likely Dunk is the really tall knight and "Old" Nan is the girl. The Tourney at Ashford (The Hedge Knight) was in 209 AL. The Sworn Sword took place around 210 AL or 211 AL. The Whitewalls Tourney (The Mystery Knight) was in 212 AL and GRRM said the fourth D&E adventure would be the She Wolves of Winterfell. Dunk and Egg were already on there way to Winterfell to answer a call for arms by Lord Beron Stark when they decided to stop by the Whitewalls Tourney. So it would seem that they would arrive in Winterfell fairly soon to start their next adventure. So best guess date is 213 AL - 215 AL.

Early Fifth Vision: A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows." If weirwood arrows help kill dragons, this would be around the time of King Torrhen Stark. Brandon Snow was Torrhen's bastard half-brother, that thought they could assassinate dragons with stealth (Weirwood Arrows?). The dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce could be Brandon Snow making weirwood arrows to kill Aegon the Conqueror's dragons. So best guess date is 0 AL - 2 AL.

Middle Part of Fifth Vision: "And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them." This signifies lots and lots of time is passing. Bran basically recognizes a bunch of old Stark kings, bunch of kings equals a bunch of time passing.

Last Part of Fifth Vision: "Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. " So now we are back a really, really long time ago. Around 12,000 years before Aegon Landed the First Men came to Westeros. They had bronze weapons so that is interesting. They fought with the Children of the Forest for awhile and then they made a pact and lived for 4,000 years in peace. Around 8,000 years before Aegon's Landing the Long Winter happened and the First Men and Children of the Forest defeated the Others. The Wall was built after the victory so they could never be caught unaware again. Around 6,000 years before Aegon's Landing the Andals came to Westeros and conquered all the kingdoms but the North. The Andals brought iron weapons with them and killed the remaining Children of the Forest South of Moat Cailin.

Soooo if we want to make a guess we could say that due to the Bronze weapon this event happened in 10,000 BAL - 5,000 BAL, also known as the Age of Heroes + 1000 years as a buffer zone lol. The only characters we know that are from the North and were around during that time period are Bran the Builder and the Night's King. Now we don't know much of anything about Bran the Builder, except he was perhaps the founder of House Stark and the builder of the Wall and Winterfall and maybe Storm's End. We know that the Night's King was the 13th Lord Commander of the Nights Watch and that he was a brother of the King in the North. He might have married a White Walker and then announced he was King and took over the Nightfort for 13 years. Legend says he committed lots of atrocities and was also doing sacrifices to the White Walkers. Now if the Knight's King was captured he might have been brought to Winterfell to be executed. He could be the significant guy getting killed.

Sir or Miss I know that I am way late but this fable have to stop here NO proof that the Night King was the brother of a Stark, Nan told the story to scared Brandon. He may of been Flint or Woodfoot but I doubt he was a Stark!

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I am convinced that the woman praying for a son to avenge her is Ned's mother, Lyarra Stark.



Lyarra was already a Stark before she wed Rickard. Her father was Rodrik "The Wandering Wolf" Stark, son of Lord Beron Stark.



Rickard's grandfather, Lord William Stark, was The Wandering Wolf's brother.



In the world book we learn very little about The Wandering Wolf. I think this is on purpose. Whatever Lyarra wants avenged, I think it has to do with him. Maybe his brother Lord William betrayed him in some way, or slighted him so badly that his descendants also carried his anger.



So Lyarra would want revenge on her husbands side of the Stark family tree... Maybe. I don't know, it made more sense in my head before I started trying to lay it all out there.



I can't find the pages right now in the World book that might have any evidence to support this, but I'm still looking! Stupidly, I didn't include The Wandering Wolf in my notes because I didn't think he sounded too important... Until I realized he was Lyarra's father, and Ned's maternal grandfather.



EDIT: Also, since the Starks don't seem to incestuously marry too often. I only see it two times before this in the linage tree in the back of the world book. That could hint that the marriage was supposed to heal some kind of rift. Ok the closer I look the more I'm seeing, so strike that point... :/


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I am convinced that the woman praying for a son to avenge her is Ned's mother, Lyarra Stark.

Lyarra was already a Stark before she wed Rickard. Her father was Rodrik "The Wandering Wolf" Stark, son of Lord Beron Stark.

Rickard's grandfather, Lord William Stark, was The Wandering Wolf's brother.

In the world book we learn very little about The Wandering Wolf. I think this is on purpose. Whatever Lyarra wants avenged, I think it has to do with him. Maybe his brother Lord William betrayed him in some way, or slighted him so badly that his descendants also carried his anger.

So Lyarra would want revenge on her husbands side of the Stark family tree... Maybe. I don't know, it made more sense in my head before I started trying to lay it all out there.

I can't find the pages right now in the World book that might have any evidence to support this, but I'm still looking! Stupidly, I didn't include The Wandering Wolf in my notes because I didn't think he sounded too important... Until I realized he was Lyarra's father, and Ned's maternal grandfather.

EDIT: Also, since the Starks don't seem to incestuously marry too often. I only see it two times before this in the linage tree in the back of the world book. That could hint that the marriage was supposed to heal some kind of rift. Ok the closer I look the more I'm seeing, so strike that point... :/

I totally agree. The pregnant lady in Bran's vision is Lyarra Stark, carrying Brandon. I've been saying this since before the world book came out, even though we didn't know the woman's identity at the time. But the Stark family tree in AWoIaF has helped me to refine a theory.

I think Rodrik returned from his time with the Second Sons, and wherever else he might have wandered, to find Willam's son Edwyle as Lord of Winterfell. For some reason Rodrik challenged Edwyle's inheritance. The chart of Stark lineage leaves scope for such speculation. An interesting detail is that Willam had two marriages, one to Melantha Blackwood which yielded a son and a daughter, Edwyle and Jocelyn. And one to Lyanna Glover, who gave him a boy named Brandon. We don't know which marriage came first, but we do know that the child Brandon, who Old Nan came to Winterfell to wet nurse, died of a summer chill when he was 3 years old. Willam died at the Battle of Long Lake in 226 AC, and Winterfell passed to his son by Melantha Blackwood, Edwyle.

So here's my speculation. What if Willam had set aside his marriage to Melantha, removing her childrens' claim, and taken Lyanna as his new wife? Lyanna dies in childbirth, her son Brandon dies at 3 years old, so when Willam is killed at Long Lake, his former wife Melantha somehow forces her son back into the line of succession. Years later, when Willam's other brothers Artos and Errold are dead, Rodrik returns and challenges Edwyle's title. Rodrik kills Edwyle, but Edwyle's son Rickard kills Rodrik. Rickard then takes Rodrik's daughter, Lyarra, as his wife to heal the rift. But Lyarra is not happy, and prays for a son to avenge her father and kill her Lord husband, so the Old Gods send her Brandon.

Alternatively, Lyanna Glover may have died first, allowing Willam marry Melantha Blackwood. This would make Edwyle the lawful heir to Winterfell, but who's to say that Rodrick didn't try to take Winterfell by unlawful means? We can only speculate on the details, but whatever the background, I think Lyarra Stark, pregnant with Brandon makes the most sense for Bran's vision.

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I totally agree. The pregnant lady in Bran's vision is Lyarra Stark, carrying Brandon. I've been saying this since before the world book came out, even though we didn't know the woman's identity at the time. But the Stark family tree in AWoIaF has helped me to refine a theory.

I think Rodrik returned from his time with the Second Sons, and wherever else he might have wandered, to find Willam's son Edwyle as Lord of Winterfell. For some reason Rodrik challenged Edwyle's inheritance. The chart of Stark lineage leaves scope for such speculation. An interesting detail is that Willam had two marriages, one to Melantha Blackwood which yielded a son and a daughter, Edwyle and Jocelyn. And one to Lyanna Glover, who gave him a boy named Brandon. We don't know which marriage came first, but we do know that the child Brandon, who Old Nan came to Winterfell to wet nurse, died of a summer chill when he was 3 years old. Willam died at the Battle of Long Lake in 226 AC, and Winterfell passed to his son by Melantha Blackwood, Edwyle.

So here's my speculation. What if Willam had set aside his marriage to Melantha, removing her childrens' claim, and taken Lyanna as his new wife? Lyanna dies in childbirth, her son Brandon dies at 3 years old, so when Willam is killed at Long Lake, his former wife Melantha somehow forces her son back into the line of succession. Years later, when Willam's other brothers Artos and Errold are dead, Rodrik returns and challenges Edwyle's title. Rodrik kills Edwyle, but Edwyle's son Rickard kills Rodrik. Rickard then takes Rodrik's daughter, Lyarra, as his wife to heal the rift. But Lyarra is not happy, and prays for a son to avenge her father and kill her Lord husband, so the Old Gods send her Brandon.

Alternatively, Lyanna Glover may have died first, allowing Willam marry Melantha Blackwood. This would make Edwyle the lawful heir to Winterfell, but who's to say that Rodrick didn't try to take Winterfell by unlawful means? We can only speculate on the details, but whatever the background, I think Lyarra Stark, pregnant with Brandon makes the most sense for Bran's vision.

I very much like the detail and effort you put into this! Amazing research!

On the one hand, I like the idea that Willam married Melantha Blackwood first and set her aside, because it gives is a clear motivation for the dispute.

But on the other, I like to think most Starks are as honorable as Ned (or strive to be), and setting aside your wife and mother of your children isn't a very honorable thing to do. In that aspect, it could be more likely that he married Lyanna Glover first, and she died around the time her son Brandon did. Even so, as you said, Rodrik could still return and try to usurp the lordship from his nephew. But there goes that Stark honor again, out the window.

Hmm, maybe I'm thinking too highly of the Starks' as a whole after all.

I just wish we knew more about Rodrik and what he was doing when he was Wandering.. Here's to hoping we find out something of note in She Wolves of Winterfell! :cheers:

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I very much like the detail and effort you put into this! Amazing research!

On the one hand, I like the idea that Willam married Melantha Blackwood first and set her aside, because it gives is a clear motivation for the dispute.

But on the other, I like to think most Starks are as honorable as Ned (or strive to be), and setting aside your wife and mother of your children isn't a very honorable thing to do. In that aspect, it could be more likely that he married Lyanna Glover first, and she died around the time her son Brandon did. Even so, as you said, Rodrik could still return and try to usurp the lordship from his nephew. But there goes that Stark honor again, out the window.

Hmm, maybe I'm thinking too highly of the Starks' as a whole after all.

I just wish we knew more about Rodrik and what he was doing when he was Wandering.. Here's to hoping we find out something of note in She Wolves of Winterfell! :cheers:

I like the theory because it adds a darker side to the Stark family. I'm sure they all weren't honourable Neds. And it might even explain why there is no mention of Ned's mother throughout the series.

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