Ned + Ashara = Allyria Dayne ?

[Ice Turtle]

Ned + Ashara = Allyria Dayne, could it be ?

This theory pops up from time to time on this forum and I think it deserves its own topic.

We know from Barristan Selmy that Ashara had gave birth to a stillborn daughter most probably conceived during the Harrenhal tourney. The suspected father is a Stark. These two facts are not widely known in Westeros. Barristan most probably knows them only due the fact, that he was a sworn brother to Arthur Dayne. However there is a gossip that Ned and Ashara have an affair. And thanks to Meera's story we know it is build on something.

A lot of people thinks that Ned would not "dishonor" Ashara, but none of them was even betrothed at the time. Considering Ned's nature and dornish culture I have a strong suspicion, that it was Ashara who pushed their relationship to next level.

Now, what we know about Allyria Dayne? She is supposedly Ashara's younger sister. At the beginning of AGoT she is betrothed to Beric Dondarrion meaning her age is most probably somewhere between twelve and eighteen at that time.

It's her who tells her nephew about Ashara/Ned. Maybe she knows her origins and that is why she is interested in that ancient gossip or maybe she is somehow naturally drawn to this part of family history. It remind me little of Edric Storm and his obsession with Robert.

Eddard never thinks about her, and most people would agree that there is no chance he wouldn't think about his child, natural or not. But maybe he never knew.

Last small argument is Allyria's name. It's an (really) imperfect anagram of both Arya and Lya (nickname Ned uses once for his sister).

There are hidden Targs everywhere, why not at least one "Stark"? So, what do you think?

[iNinja]

I like this theory. But maybe it was not Ned's child , could it be Benjen or Brandon?

Also, isn't Jon a stark/targ if R+L=J.

[Gogossos]

I'm intrigued by this theory. Would the timeline work?

[Stannis the Great]

Well if she was conceived at the Tourney of Harrenhal then she'd be born in 282AL. According to the Wiki she was betrothed to Beric in 294AL when she was 12 which seems an acceptable age.

This also happens in real life when a young girl has an unwanted pregnancy, sometimes the mother (of the young girl) claims the child as her own and raises them as a sister to the actual mother.

[1234567]

Actually she could be Brandon and Ashara's child. It would also fit in that Ned had intended to marry her to restore her honour as his brother was already betrothed.

[MtnLion]

This all of course is making an assumption that is not supported in the text, that Barristan's memories indicated who dishonored Ashara. On the contrary, those memories do not indicate the person who dishonored Ashara, nor do they place any Stark closer than Barristan himself to the dishonor. Read the passage one sentence at a time, you will find first Barristan, then Stark, at the very end, when Ashara was looking for some kind of help.

Further, what are Allyria's features described as? (My personal opinion is that we will find out that Oberyn, Aerys, or maybe Rhaegar dishonored Ashara.)

[Ice Turtle]

I was hoping for more disagreement ^_^ .

Actually she could be Brandon and Ashara's child. It would also fit in that Ned had intended to marry her to restore her honour as his brother was already betrothed.

I don't think Ned would do it. He would take care of the child if needed, but not go beyond that. he never had with Robert's bastards.

Well if she was conceived at the Tourney of Harrenhal then she'd be born in 282AL. According to the Wiki she was betrothed to Beric in 294AL when she was 12 which seems an acceptable age.

Good catch. I didn't know this.

[The Red Lion]

I think i read somewhere that brandon fucked ashara.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

Actually she could be Brandon and Ashara's child. It would also fit in that Ned had intended to marry her to restore her honour as his brother was already betrothed.

This is my husband's theory. We know from Jojen's story of the KotLT that it was Brandon who got Ned (the Quiet Wolf) a dance with Ashara, and from Lady Dustin that Brandon didn't mind taking a girl's maidenhead at will without any talk of betrothals. Hubby thinks it was Brandon who got Ashara pregnant, then Ned planned to step in to save everybody's reputations.

Can anyone remind me... is it possible that Ashara could have killed herself in response to Ned telling her the circumstances of Brandon's death? I'm a little fuzzy on the timeline...

[ARYa_Nym]

The child didn't necessarily have to be conceived at Harrenhal.

Barriston said that she killed herself soon after the child was born.GRRM said that Ashara moved around and she wasn't confined to Starfall so the child could have been conceived during the war.

I'm not sure if the child existed though. This could just be another cover story seeing as how I'm not sure if she killed herself. If Ashara is in fact Septa Lemore she obviously had a child at one point.

About Allyria she obviously talked to little Edric about Ned. Edric said that he wanted to talk to Ned at the Hand's Tourney but he didn't know what to say. This is very bizarre considering the ordeal with Arthur.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

The child didn't necessarily have to be conceived at Harrenhal.

Barriston said that she killed herself soon after the child was born.GRRM said that Ashara moved around and she wasn't confined to Starfall so the child could have been conceived during the war.

I'm not sure if the child existed though. This could just be another cover story seeing as how I'm not sure if she killed herself. If Ashara is in fact Septa Lemore she obviously had a child at one point.

About Allyria she obviously talked to little Edric about Ned. Edric said that he wanted to talk to Ned at the Hand's Tourney but he didn't know what to say. This is very bizarre considering the ordeal with Arthur.

Yeah, I've always thought perhaps little Ned was big Ned's son and Ashara wasn't really his aunt, since the only clue we have to Ned's parentage is that his father was the elder (unnamed) brother of Arthur Dayne. But now my theory is that perhaps he's really Brandon's son by Ashara.

[MtnLion]

This is my husband's theory. We know from Jojen's story of the KotLT that it was Brandon who got Ned (the Quiet Wolf) a dance with Ashara, and from Lady Dustin that Brandon didn't mind taking a girl's maidenhead at will without any talk of betrothals. Hubby thinks it was Brandon who got Ashara pregnant, then Ned planned to step in to save everybody's reputations.

Be careful with Lady Barbrey Dustin's talk with Theon. As a matter of fact it seems that everyone is using Theon to relay messages to his master, and the veracity of the messages go kind of unchecked through Theon. Lady Dustin does not spit, curse, strike, deface, or even stick out her tongue at Ned's Statue, even though she claims to want to feed his bones to her dog. Instead she gives his statue a "lingering" look just before leaving the crypts with Theon. To me there are a lot of detours that GRRM seeded in DwD, in an attempt at derailing the theories that are much too close to the mark.

[Stark@heart]

What is Lady Dustin's deal? Why does she hate Ned?

[Jem]

This all of course is making an assumption that is not supported in the text, that Barristan's memories indicated who dishonored Ashara. On the contrary, those memories do not indicate the person who dishonored Ashara, nor do they place any Stark closer than Barristan himself to the dishonor. Read the passage one sentence at a time, you will find first Barristan, then Stark, at the very end, when Ashara was looking for some kind of help.

Further, what are Allyria's features described as? (My personal opinion is that we will find out that Oberyn, Aerys, or maybe Rhaegar dishonored Ashara.)

Exactly. A lot of people have jumped to the conclusion that it was a Stark that dishonoured Ashara at Harrenhal, but that is not what Barristan thinks. Obviously GRRM was trying to be tricksy here, but Barristan remembers Ashara being dishonoured at Harrenhal and he remembers Ashara 'turning to' Stark at Harrenhal: two seperate incidents. Which is not to say that one Stark didn't do the dishonouring while the other Stark did the comforting afterwards.

Personally though I think she was having an affair with Rhaegar and that Barristan saw evidence of this for the first time at Harrenhal and interpreted it as being 'dishonoured'. She may have had hurt feelings after Rhaegar gave Lyanna the crown of love and beauty and one of the Stark boys may have given her a cuddle and a pep talk afterwards to cheer her up. Barristan is sad that he didn't win the tourney so that he could give Ashara the crown, that way he could have shown his feelings to her; Ashara wouldn't be hurt by Rhaegar's attention to Lyanna; and Ashara wouldn't have had to be comforted by a Stark which obviously made Barristan jealous.

It does seem odd and possibly suspicious that Allyria is so much younger than her sister, so I wouldn't rule out that Allyria is Ashara's daughter. But Dany is even younger than Rhaegar (than what Allyria is to Ashara), so it does happen that siblings can be seperated by many years making them appear to be from a different generation, even though they are not.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

Be careful with Lady Barbrey Dustin's talk with Theon. As a matter of fact it seems that everyone is using Theon to relay messages to his master, and the veracity of the messages go kind of unchecked through Theon. Lady Dustin does not spit, curse, strike, deface, or even stick out her tongue at Ned's Statue, even though she claims to want to feed his bones to her dog. Instead she gives his statue a "lingering" look just before leaving the crypts with Theon. To me there are a lot of detours that GRRM seeded in DwD, in an attempt at derailing the theories that are much too close to the mark.

Is it your theory that Lady Dustin wanted Ned? Just curious...

There really is no way to know if she can be trusted or not, so at this point it mostly comes down to comparing her claims to what we know from other characters' comments or behaviors. Brandon is the "wild wolf" and has behaved recklessly before, so that gives her a little credibility in regards to what she tells us about his actions. And why would a "mature" woman of honorable standing tell such a dishonorable tale about herself if it weren't true? Or is it your assertion that she just changed the cast of characters? Not disagreeing with you, I'm just wondering how you interpret this passage of hers because I'm intrigued by what you might be thinking... mind spelling it out?

[Dragonfish]

Be careful with Lady Barbrey Dustin's talk with Theon. As a matter of fact it seems that everyone is using Theon to relay messages to his master, and the veracity of the messages go kind of unchecked through Theon. Lady Dustin does not spit, curse, strike, deface, or even stick out her tongue at Ned's Statue, even though she claims to want to feed his bones to her dog. Instead she gives his statue a "lingering" look just before leaving the crypts with Theon.

She does, however, give a twisted, ugly smile that reminds Theon of Ramsay, when asked by Theon what she plans on doing with Ned's bones. This to me is more indicative of her attitude than the neutral "lingering look" she gives to Ned's statue.

Furthermore, if she is putting on a show for Theon, it doesn't make sense to me that she would make up her story about Brandon. If she's trying to convince Bolton of her loyalty, then why would she mention that she had an attachment to one of the Starks, and in fact wanted to be a Stark? Her story would be far more convincing if she left that part out, and focused on the fact that Ned led her husband to his death and didn't bring his body back.

[MtnLion]

Is it your theory that Lady Dustin wanted Ned? Just curious... There really is no way to know if she can be trusted or not, so at this point it mostly comes down to comparing her claims to what we know from other characters' comments or behaviors. Brandon is the "wild wolf" and has behaved recklessly before, so that gives her a little credibility in regards to what she tells us about his actions. And why would a "mature" woman of honorable standing tell such a dishonorable tale about herself if it weren't true? Or is it your assertion that she just changed the cast of characters? Not disagreeing with you, I'm just wondering how you interpret this passage of hers because I'm intrigued by what you might be thinking... mind spelling it out?

It is difficult to know what if anything in Lady Barbrey's monologue is true. It does seem that she has a genuine fondness for Starks overall, and had deeper feelings for Brandon. Does that mean that they were lovers? Not necessarily. It could simply be that she wished that they had been lovers, and there is no harm in having Ramsay or Roose think that they were. The puch line to her recital is the "waiting to feed Ned's bones to my dog" line. It just does not ring true with all of her other actions, including the line "the North remembers", later. Lord Wyman has no fear, but other northerners are being very careful, including Lady Barbrey.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

Exactly. A lot of people have jumped to the conclusion that it was a Stark that dishonoured Ashara at Harrenhal, but that is not what Barristan thinks. Obviously GRRM was trying to be tricksy here, but Barristan remembers Ashara being dishonoured at Harrenhal and he remembers Ashara 'turning to' Stark at Harrenhal: two seperate incidents. Which is not to say that one Stark didn't do the dishonouring while the other Stark did the comforting afterwards.

Good post... I think most people assume it's a Stark, or lean that way, because there have been other references from the beginning that hint at the same, especially the KotLT story, because nobody seems to mistrust Jojen Reed. Clearly there are other contenders even in that tale, though ("the white sword," "the red snake," and the "lord of the griffins"), not to mention Aerys-- if you trust Selmy (and most people do), when he describes the bedding of Joanna and Tywin.

[mpbarnes]

Hmm...I don't know why I haven't considered it before, but what if Allyria and Ned Dayne are actually twins? The Starfall connections are the most perplexing in this entire series in my book.

For the life of me I can't figure out why the Daynes, after Ned is responsible for the death of the legendary Arthur Dayne, would name the heir to Starfall, Edric "Ned" Dayne. I'm starting to wonder if it's at all possible that Arthur Dayne is ALSO not dead and there's more going on here. Perhaps Ned had something to do with keeping the secrets of Ashara's "dishonoring" (and possibly Arthur Dayne's still being alive) and that curried favor with the Dayne's. That family just seems super mysterious and they're the only family that has been mentioned in ever single book, but never listed in the back of the "Major Houses". It makes it impossible to determine who Allyria's parents are, who Edric Dayne's parents are, or even who DarkStar's parents are. Nothing but big time mysteries.

I just know that I really don't think Ned fathered any bastards, I'm thinking the Wylla story was made up after the Tower of Joy, and when he goes to Starfall, Ashara must believe that her children are Brandon Stark's. But I'm not clear that Stark was doing the "dishonoring" at Harrenhall, I think that was Oberyn Martell, who clearly was a serious womanizer, but Brandon being the "Wild wolf" might have "comforted" Ashara too. When Ned returns to Starfall, some deal must be made at that point. I just really hope that GRRM sorts it all out.

[MtnLion]

She does, however, give a twisted, ugly smile that reminds Theon of Ramsay, when asked by Theon what she plans on doing with Ned's bones. This to me is more indicative of her attitude than the neutral "lingering look" she gives to Ned's statue. Furthermore, if she is putting on a show for Theon, it doesn't make sense to me that she would make up her story about Brandon. If she's trying to convince Bolton of her loyalty, then why would she mention that she had an attachment to one of the Starks, and in fact wanted to be a Stark? Her story would be far more convincing if she left that part out, and focused on the fact that Ned led her husband to his death and didn't bring his body back.

Ah, but the Ryswells cherish their horses, and Ned did return her husband's horse. It was her husband's choice to go with Ned, against her objections, and she does seem rather more reasonable than to lay all of that load of blame on Ned. If she isn't reasonable then how is it that she has not already done away with Ramsay? Ramsay did kill her favorite nephew.

She is putting on a show, with Theon as interpretter, for the benefit of the Boltons. She says that she had reason to hate Rickon for taking Brandon away from her for a betrothal to Catelyn. She says she has a reason to hate Brandon for taking her maidenhead, and leaving her. She says she has a reason to hate Ned for taking her husband and not returning him. She does nothing to deface the crypts or statues. She gave Theon the ugly feral smile, just as she does to the Freys, later. In the crypts with Theon as witness, Lady Barbrey's words are wind, and she tells him not to repeat it, so that he will feel that he is sharing a secret with his master.