188 replies to this topic

[Rickon is FIERCE]

Possible that Darkstar is the missing elder brother???  And Edric's father???

EDIT: Just did some rereading in AFFC...Darkstar/Ser Gerold Dayne calls himself Arthur Dayne's cousin... suppose there's no reason to suspect otherwise, other than the fact that Darkstar apparently has a murky past; I'm inclined to think he's not the Dayne I'm looking for.

Edited by Rickon is FIERCE, 01 November 2011 - 04:24 PM.

[Whatever]

Rickon is FIERCE, on 01 November 2011 - 04:00 PM, said:

Possible that Darkstar is the missing elder brother???  And Edric's father???

he would be too young. Since Edric is the lord, i think his father's dead. Darkstar is supposed to be a cousin from a lesser branch of the house (the Daynes of the Night )

[howsockgothappy]

MtnLion, on 31 October 2011 - 01:32 PM, said:

This all of course is making an assumption that is not supported in the text, that Barristan's memories indicated who dishonored Ashara.  On the contrary, those memories do not indicate the person who dishonored Ashara, nor do they place any Stark closer than Barristan himself to the dishonor.  Read the passage one sentence at a time, you will find first Barristan, then Stark, at the very end, when Ashara was looking for some kind of help.

I actually don't see how you get this from the text. An in-depth reader would realize that just because they are separated by a few sentences, this does not make them separate instances. The exact text is:

"But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark? "

I'm quite certain that the implication here is 'might she have looked to me instead of him?.... If she had, I would not have dishonoured her as he did,'  not that she looked to Stark for comfort after the 'dishonouring'

[Yarl Snow]

lazy turtle, on 30 October 2011 - 07:55 PM, said:

Ned + Ashara = Allyria Dayne, could it be ?
This theory pops up from time to time on this forum and I think it deserves its own topic.

This theory is pretty thoroughly felled by the fact that there would be no need to pretend that Ashara's baby was dead. Ashara's memory would already be tainted by the mere fact that she was pregnant, and bastards are very prominent in Westeros. Performing such an elaborate scheme just to hide a bastard seems unreasonable.

Unless it was Rhaegar's child, and even then, keeping the child and pretending it is Ashara's sister would be a very, very thin cover. One child dies, another appears, but oh, wait, it's not the same child. No, no one would believe such a ruse would ever work.

If Ashara's child is alive, then the cover story itself says that there is something about the child that needs to be covered up, which, barring any considerations of the child's own reputation, would not be necessary for a bastard of Ned's or Brandon's. It would be if it was Rhaegar's, or if it was a planned setting up of a false Targaryen (since Ashara reputedly had some Targaryen colouring).

In short, I believe it is pretty improbable that Allyria is Ashara's daughter.

[MtnLion]

howsockgothappy, on 12 November 2011 - 07:19 PM, said:

I actually don't see how you get this from the text. An in-depth reader would realize that just because they are separated by a few sentences, this does not make them separate instances. The exact text is:

"But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark? "

I'm quite certain that the implication here is 'might she have looked to me instead of him?.... If she had, I would not have dishonoured her as he did,'  not that she looked to Stark for comfort after the 'dishonouring'

How would Ser Barristan crowning Ashara Queen of Love and Beauty at the end of the tournament have prevented Ned or Brandon or anyone else from dishonoring Ashara prior?  Perhaps revisiting Meera's story will help a bit.  We know the possible suitors would likely have danced with Ashara.  Brandon is not specifcally mentioned as dancing with Ashara, but the too shy to ask her himself Ned did.  Of course we know that Ned and Howland became fast friends at Harrenhal, too.  Earlier on Barristan suggests that young maidens prefer the fiery type, was Oberyn fiery?  Oberyn certanly has no compulsion to preserve a maid's honor.  Only the listed white swords died during the war, so ...

So, it seems that Ashara threw herself from the tower after her brother's death (White Sword in Meera's tale?  Or, was it another White Sword, Jaime excluded?)  One story suggests it was because of her love for the married Ned.  This story suggests that Ashara wanted to redeem herself by finding a husband in Ned, who she knew liked her very much at Harrenhal.

Again, there is one complete sentence:  "But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well."  I see no names or suggestions for the identity of the man.  Does Barristan know?  I sincerely doubt it, though he may have heard rumors, he fails to give an identity to himself.  This also suggests that the man who dishonored her died during the war.

ETA:  There are five King's Guard that died during the war, any one of which could be the White Sword that danced with Ashara, and thus be likely to be suspect of dishonoring Ashara at Harrenhal.  They are:  Lord Commander, Gerold Hightower; Ser Arthur Dayne; Ser Oswell Whent; Ser Lewyn Martell; Ser Barristan Selmy; Ser Jaime Lannister; and Ser Jonathor Darry.  We can exclude Jaime who survived and because he was at King's Landing immediately after being inducted, and he only had relations with his sister.  We can exclude Barristan who survived and because he is the source and he surely seems to imply that he would not dishonor Ashara.  We can exclude Arthur because he is Ashara's brother, and he had ample opportunity, if he was so inclined, to dishonr Ashara at other times.  So, we have a red snake (Oberyn), Lord of Griffins (Jon Connington), and a white sword (could be Gerold, Oswell, Lewyn, or Jonathor), also dancing with Ashara if we are to assume that the man who dishonored Ashara also danced with her.

Edited by MtnLion, 13 November 2011 - 12:02 PM.

[corbon]

MtnLion, on 13 November 2011 - 10:41 AM, said:

How would Ser Barristan crowning Ashara Queen of Love and Beauty at the end of the tournament have prevented Ned or Brandon or anyone else from dishonoring Ashara prior?

It couldn't. But perhaps the 'dishonouring' didn't happen 'til after the crowning? Maybe, maybe not, we simply don't have any details about what happens between the crowning and Lyanna's "abduction", and precious few even where we have any at all.

MtnLion, on 13 November 2011 - 10:41 AM, said:

Perhaps revisiting Meera's story will help a bit. We know the possible suitors would likely have danced with Ashara.

No, we don't know that at all. We just know she danced with certain people, and so we assign those people a slightly higher probability of being of interest, generally.
The story is simply what Howland Reed witnessed, and contains nothing that he didn't know about. She may have danced with others, but those are just the ones that HR noticed around the time she danced with Ned. Or maybe she danced only 4/5 times during the whole tourney - I think not!

MtnLion, on 13 November 2011 - 10:41 AM, said:

We can exclude Arthur because he is Ashara's brother, and he had ample opportunity, if he was so inclined, to dishonr Ashara at other times. So, we have a red snake (Oberyn), Lord of Griffins (Jon Connington), and a white sword (could be Gerold, Oswell, Lewyn, or Jonathor), also dancing with Ashara if we are to assume that the man who dishonored Ashara also danced with her.

Ser Arthur Dayne is the only person around who has a white sword as his personal symbol (+ the falling star) and the other KG would be known by other nicknames (eg the White Bull IIRC for  Hightower). He has to be the number one candidate for the white sword whom she danced with.

It is not reasonable to assume that one of the men she danced with in HRs story dishonoured her (thoughmost of the most likely candidates come from that pool) and it is most likely that the white sword was her brother Arthur.

[Jem]

howsockgothappy, on 12 November 2011 - 07:19 PM, said:

I actually don't see how you get this from the text. An in-depth reader would realize that just because they are separated by a few sentences, this does not make them separate instances. The exact text is:

"But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark? "

I'm quite certain that the implication here is 'might she have looked to me instead of him?.... If she had, I would not have dishonoured her as he did,'  not that she looked to Stark for comfort after the 'dishonouring'

I disagree. I believe the shallow, surface reading of this passage is supposed to trick us into linking a Stark with the dishonor. The in-depth reader will find that no such thing is ever stated.

I believe that she was 'dishonored' (in Barristan's opinion anyway, I think she was in a consensual relationship) by some man (I think Rhaegar) and at Harrenhal that relationship soured (Rhaegar showed an interest in Lyanna) so Ashara turned to a Stark to cry on his shoulder.

Barristan would like to have had Ashara cry on his shoulder instead, and he believed that if he had won the torney and given Ashara the crown, then she would have chosen him to comfort her instead of Stark.

[MtnLion]

corbon, on 13 November 2011 - 07:02 PM, said:

It couldn't. But perhaps the 'dishonouring' didn't happen 'til after the crowning? Maybe, maybe not, we simply don't have any details about what happens between the crowning and Lyanna's "abduction", and precious few even where we have any at all.

Sorry, it is pretty clear from the quoted passage that Barristan believes that the crowning at the end could have changed the outcome.  This was after five days of jousting, remember, it was the conclusion.

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No, we don't know that at all. We just know she danced with certain people, and so we assign those people a slightly higher probability of being of interest, generally.
The story is simply what Howland Reed witnessed, and contains nothing that he didn't know about. She may have danced with others, but those are just the ones that HR noticed around the time she danced with Ned. Or maybe she danced only 4/5 times during the whole tourney - I think not!

Okay, so the list has a higher probability of being the perpetrators of the dishonor.  

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Ser Arthur Dayne is the only person around who has a white sword as his personal symbol (+ the falling star) and the other KG would be known by other nicknames (eg the White Bull IIRC for  Hightower). He has to be the number one candidate for the white sword whom she danced with.

Sorry, Ser Arthur Dayne carries a plain white shield as all of the King's Guard (white swords) do.  Page 912 SoS:  White Sword tower is the King's Guard tower.  Page 901:  The Red Viper of Dorne names them "White Swords".  There are many more, but "white sword" can refer the King's Guard as much as it can refer to Dawn.  In Meera's story it refers to a person, hence must be any of the present King's Guard.

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It is not reasonable to assume that one of the men she danced with in HRs story dishonoured her (thoughmost of the most likely candidates come from that pool) and it is most likely that the white sword was her brother Arthur.

Agree, it is not reasonable to limit the possible perpetrators to those who danced with Ashara, but fishing without bait can be fruitless.  Let's pick the fieriest one fo the group as prime suspect, and leave it there, unless Barristan wants to name him.  Since Barristan does not want to name him, I would prefer to think his name is Rhaegar or Oberyn, and after any named dancers we can turn out attention elsewhere.

[Brucolac]

Oberyn doesn't make any more sense then Brandon or Author Daybne based off the paragraph.  One is dead way too soon and the other never died so no reason for grief as a reason for suicide, and the last is her brother who doesn't make sense with the dishonored part of it.  It could be referring to two different men of course, one who dishonored her and one for whom she grieved, but that isn't very concise. Rhaegar or Eddard are the only sensible conclusions, and if there was a fake stillbirth, Rhaegar is the only person that makes sense.  Rhaegar is also the only person that would make sense for Barristan having knowledge contradictory to the rumors that spread from Harrenhall.

As for people that danced with her, Jon Connington who is gay or her brother who could be the white sword mentioned, could have been playing matchmaker for someone else, again pointing to Rhaegar.

Edited by Brucolac, 13 November 2011 - 08:50 PM.

[MtnLion]

Brucolac, on 13 November 2011 - 08:39 PM, said:

Oberyn doesn't make any more sense then Brandon or Author Daybne based off the paragraph.  One is dead way too soon and the other never died so no reason for grief as a reason for suicide, and the last is her brother who doesn't make sense with the dishonored part of it.  It could be referring to two different men of course, one who dishonored her and one for whom she grieved, but that isn't very concise. Rhaegar or Eddard are the only sensible conclusions, and if there was a fake stillbirth, Rhaegar is the only person that makes sense.  Rhaegar is also the only person that would make sense for Barristan having knowledge contradictory to the rumors that spread from Harrenhall.

Eddard is a nonsensible conclusion, he was too shy to even get up to ask Ashara for a dance, his brother had to do it for him.  Do not assign "White Sword" to Arthur Dayne, alone.  As I mentioned all of the Kingsguard, including Arthur Dayne carry plain white shields and are referred to as White Swords.  Lord Commander, Gerold Hightower; Ser Arthur Dayne; Ser Oswell Whent; Prince Lewyn Martell; Ser Barristan Selmy; Ser Jaime Lannister; and Ser Jonathor Darry are all White Swords.  Of those it makes sense to not exclude Lord Commander, Gerold Hightower; Ser Oswell Whent; Prince Lewyn Martell; and Ser Jonathor Darry as possible persons of interest.

Edited by MtnLion, 13 November 2011 - 08:52 PM.

[Brucolac]

I get the impression that Hightower and Lewyn Martell are a generation older, older even than Barristan.  I guess Whent, but he is a nonexistent character almost in historical reference and we only know where he died and who his brother was.  Darry isn't a person of interest, he is very old and can not be described as a white sword either,  and i don't think there is any kind of confirmation that he was even there.  Eddard makes sense in that he was seen with her there and also makes sense with the grieved for part of his statement; besides the reference of his name indicating some kind of relationship.

Another point, it seems odd for Barristan to think of Brandon as just Stark in his thoughts.  It seems to me that Eddard would be the person he associates with that name when it is used singularly.  I think Brandon would be Brandon Stark in his memory and not just Stark.

Barristan also refers to this as his greatest failing, which doesn't really sound right with him just not winning her affections.  Looked to seems to me to refer to her seeking help of some kind, and the events there led her to seek it from Stark instead of him.   That is more parsimonious with the time frame too since his winning of the tournament would not have effected events prior to that which would seem to have included her dishonoring.   I think the regret comes from her death and not from her choosing someone over him.

Edited by Brucolac, 13 November 2011 - 09:16 PM.

[MtnLion]

Brucolac, on 13 November 2011 - 09:09 PM, said:

I get the impression that Hightower and Lewyn Martell are a generation older, older even than Barristan.  I guess Whent, but he is a nonexistent character almost in historical reference and we only know where he died and who his brother was.  Darry isn't a person of interest, he is is very old and can not be described as a white sword either,  and i don't think there is any kind of confirmation that he was even there.  Eddard makes sense in that he was seen with her there and also makes sense with the grieved for part of his statement; besides the reference of his name indicating some kind of relationship.

Another point, it seems odd for Barristan to think of Brandon as just Stark in his thoughts.  It seems to me that Eddard would be the person he associates with that name when it is used singularly.  I think Brandon would be Brandon Stark in his memory and not just Stark.

Barristan also refers to this as his greatest failing, which doesn't really sound right with him just not winning her affections.  Looked to seems to me to refer to her seeking help of some kind, and the events there led her to seek it from Stark instead of him.   That is more parsimonious with the time frame too since his winning of the tournament would not have effected events prior to that which would seem to have included her dishonoring.   I think the regret comes from her death and not from her choosing someone over him.

I concur with using "Stark" as a reference to Lord Stark in Barristan's memory.  However, it seems plain to me that Ashara "turned to Stark" when he returned Dawn to the family at Starfall.  The point that Barristan is making is that he loved Ashara, but she did not know it, and he would have been more than willing to help her when there was a need.  What is not clear is that Barristan would know that Ashara had expressed a need to Ned, at Starfall, that Barristan could learn about.

For Prince Martell:   It was a closely held secret that Prince Lewyn kept a paramour despite the Kingsguard oaths of chastity.^[4] Ser Barristan Selmy and his other sworn brothers were aware of this but kept their sworn brothers secret.

Could Barristan still be keeping the secret, from himself?

Meera does not reveal who the "White Sword" was, so it could be any of them.  Ned, on the other hand, kept only one secret; that of Jon's mother and father.  Connington seems to be considered to be in love with Rhaegar.  Oberyn is a known sire of bastards, he takes the girls from their mothers and raises them.  Was Ashara's girl child taken rather than stillborn?  We are making far too many guesses with no information.  The person who dishonored Ashara is not revealed in any writings, thus far.  And, from Barristan's memories, since he names Stark later alongside his own, it appears that it must not be Stark.

[MtnLion]

Brucolac, on 13 November 2011 - 09:09 PM, said:

I get the impression that Hightower and Lewyn Martell are a generation older, older even than Barristan.  

Hmm, did you read the white book?

Quote

I guess Whent, but he is a nonexistent character almost in historical reference and we only know where he died and who his brother was.  

As much as we know about Rhaegar, eh? Ser Oswell Whent helped Jaime up after swearing the Kingsguard's oath, GoT page 638.

Quote

Darry isn't a person of interest, he is very old and can not be described as a white sword either,  and i don't think there is any kind of confirmation that he was even there.  

The younger brother of Willem Darry is very old?  What kind of confirmation?  That all of them were present at the tourney when Jaime was inducted?  Page 638 GoT:  "All six White Swords were there to welcome their newest brother."  They were.

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Eddard makes sense in that he was seen with her there and also makes sense with the grieved for part of his statement; besides the reference of his name indicating some kind of relationship.

Ah, but read on, it surely seems that Ned does not even recall dancing with Ashara.  Perhaps Ashara fell in love with Ned at Harrenhal, the poor shy boy that had danced with her urged on by his older brother.  Ned does remember that "all smiles died" when Rhagar gave the crown to Lyanna.

Edited by MtnLion, 13 November 2011 - 09:54 PM.

[Brucolac]

Gerold Hightower is the uncle of the current Lord Hightower, who is called the old man of oldtown.  That makes him a generation older than a man who is already described as elderly, making him much older than Barristan.  Llewyn was the uncle of Oberyn, also a generation ahead of Ashara and probably the same age or older than Barristan.  Neither seem like a likely love interest.

My point about Whent, is that we don't know much about him other than he might have influenced his brother to host the tournament and he died at the tower of Joy.  He could be of any age and disposition, though he is probably the younger brother of the current lord of Harrenhall who has a daughter the age of Ashara.  He is also a full generation older than  Ashara and company.  I don't see her love interest as being another older man when she seemed to have several younger and elligible suitors.

With Dary, You are talking about a younger brother of a guy who is elderly.  Most siblings don't have huge disparity in their ages.  He is also a generation older than Ashara at the very least and probably too old to be of interest.  Those four kingsguard were probably all old enough to be her father.  I don't think there is any reason to look at them as possible love interests.

Edited by Brucolac, 14 November 2011 - 03:07 PM.

[MtnLion]

So, young girls are never attracted to older men, say the age of their fathers?  Honestly the obvious answer has been pointed out, Rhaegar had an affair with Ashara, but at Harrenhal he ran into the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and fell in love.

[Brucolac]

Rhaegar fits the criteria and results best by far; and I think he is definitely the person that dishonored her.

There are plenty of old men and young women getting together in these books, I just don't like them for this romance.

Edited by Brucolac, 14 November 2011 - 03:15 PM.

[Queensmoot]

Brucolac, on 31 October 2011 - 09:05 PM, said:

I see the Edric "Ned" Dayne was named after Eddard "Ned" Stark all the time on these boards, and it is just idiotic.  If you are naming someone after someone, you don't just use the same colloquial nickname.  Ned is only the nickname those two countries like to use for those names, and Ned Dayne was only called that as a literary tool to get Arya and him talking about her father.  If he was named after Eddard to honor him, his name would be Eddard not Edric.

Really? I don't have my copy of ASOS with me, but I thought that during Edric and Arya's conversation, Edric told her that he was called Ned specifically in honor of her father. Did I just dream that or did he say that? Does anyone have the text of their conversation handy?

Edited by Queensmoot, 14 November 2011 - 03:47 PM.

[Brucolac]

If he was named after him, his name would be Eddard not Edric.  That is just the shortening of both those names and GGRM used it as a tool to get Edric Dayne and Arya to talk about her father.  As pertaining to them talking about the name Ned:

Quote

...all of a sudden, she felt very sad.  "My father was called Ned too," she said.
"I know.   I saw him at the Hand's tourney.  I wanted to go up and speak with him, but I couldn't think what to say."  Ned shivered beneath his cloak, a sodden length of pale purple.

That is the only exchange where they talk about the name.

[Thoheeks Bili]

I always wondered why there is no animosity towards the Starks by the Daynes....after all, he killed their most renown swordsman and supposedly was the cause of Ashara's death too......it doesn't seem *right* that there wouldn't be some kind of resentment of bad mouthing of or, or, or...............anything!

[Brucolac]

Arthur Dayne was killed in a fair fight; even if they aren't happy about it how can you blame someone else when he was putting himself in danger with his calling and eventually died because of it.  You still can't tell who is to blame for her death, if she even is dead, or Dornish views on suicide.  It looks like Stark tried to help her at some point based off that memory, and whether he or someone else was the person that dishonored her can't be determined.