260 replies to this topic

[Whatever]

brashcandy, on 02 November 2011 - 03:24 PM, said:

Jaime... nuh uh... throwing a kid of a window isn't selfless, and deserting your sister to her fate is a bad kind of disinterested.

And if you're going to remove Jon, don't you have to remove Bran as well. Warging Hodor and all

give the kid a break - he wants to walk a little, it's not like Hodor cares. It sounds mean, i know, but it's the truth. Also, Bran is too young to realize what is right and what is wrong. Jon does.

RE: Jaime: He did what he did to Bran because he thought he had to (and he was right). As i said, blue and orange morality. And the reason why he was sleeping with Cersei is because he *was* disinteressed..he loved her.
I'd take Jaime over Barristan any day

[eyeheartsansa]

Quote

RE: Jaime: He did what he did to Bran because he thought he had to (and he was right). As i said, blue and orange morality. And the reason why he was sleeping with Cersei is because he *was* disinteressed..he loved her.
I'd take Jaime over Barristan any day

sorry, no.  Killing/maiming a child for life to avoid blowing your cover - NOT a good thing.  He wasn't thinking about what was the right thing to do; he really wasn't thinking at all.  The fact that he was able to do this so quickly without even thinking about it, makes it that much worse.  You'd never see Barristan do something like this.

ETA: I'm not clear on whatever jon did that was so terrible.  he is pretty high up on the good list as far as I'm concerned.

People can still be 'good' even if they are not completely above reproach.  Bran's serious breach of warging etiquette is not that big of a deal to me. he has been in some extreme circumstances and he's 9.

Edited by eyeheartsansa, 02 November 2011 - 03:47 PM.

[JKeats]

1) Davos Seaworth.  Please don't kill him GRRM!
2) Brienne of Tarth
3) Samwell Tarly
4) Bran Stark
5) The Reeds, Meera and Jojen
6) Jon Snow
7) Eddard Stark
8) Maester Luwin
9) Maester Aemon

And my final choice:  1) assuming she is sincere in her belief in Stannis and Azor Ahai, and 2) further assuming that there really is something to this business about the fate of all humanity hanging in the balance, Melisandre of Asshai might well be the best person in the entire series.

[brashcandy]

Whatever, on 02 November 2011 - 03:38 PM, said:

give the kid a break - he wants to walk a little, it's not like Hodor cares. It sounds mean, i know, but it's the truth. Also, Bran is too young to realize what is right and what is wrong. Jon does.

RE: Jaime: He did what he did to Bran because he thought he had to (and he was right). As i said, blue and orange morality. And the reason why he was sleeping with Cersei is because he *was* disinteressed..he loved her.
I'd take Jaime over Barristan any day

What has Jon done wrong again?
How was Jaime "right" in throwing Bran from a window. Moral people would accept the consequences of their actions, not try to kill a child to cover it up. He is far from good.

[headtrip_honey]

Whatever, on 02 November 2011 - 03:38 PM, said:

give the kid a break - he wants to walk a little, it's not like Hodor cares. It sounds mean, i know, but it's the truth. Also, Bran is too young to realize what is right and what is wrong. Jon does.

While I agree that Bran is "good" and his warging of Hodor does not make him "bad", Hodor does care. He just can't express it. Bran mentions that Hodor is afraid and retreats to a hidden part of his mind.

[mediocre cheese]

Tin Pony, on 02 November 2011 - 03:38 PM, said:

Yes they did. Ok it likey wasnt because she was insulted but because she hated slavery. Thats fine but she also murdered them without warning or being provoked. She went to Astapor to get an army and just decided to murder people. She made a deal with the Astapor slavers, refused to fufill her end of the bargain, shouted "dracarys", then three dragons burned them.
As for Stannis, it was a totally dick move. Your point? The discussion was whether Dany is one of the top 10 good characters. I don't remember anyone nominating Stannis for Nice Guy of the Year Award.

Right, your glossing over a key difference here. I think most people would say that killing slavers and human traffickers because you hate slavery is a far different thing than killing people because you don't like them. And no, you don't have to fulfill any bargain that involves slaves. You don't have a right to your slaves and you can't sell a slave. If someone offers to sell me a slave, I can take the slave (assuming I free said slave, as Dany does) without ever paying them for it.

[Tin Pony]

and then kill the person?

Im not advocating slavery at all. Just saying she was sort of an ass for doing that. In fact I thought it was awesome while reading it. But killing them with no warning doesn't make you good no matter what the reasons were.

Hell she couldve declared "Im not paying for these slaves because its vile and wrong. Try and stop me and I'll roast you with my dragons" (not even saying this is something anyone would likely do) but the debate was whether hers was a good action or not.

[Villemo]

in no particular order, of course:

Ned
Sansa
Maesters Luwin and Aemon
Barristan
Brienne
Davos
Tysha
Jon Snow
Syrio Forel
septon Meribald
Jeyne Heddle (I know, this girl isn't one of the main characters, but I really like Heddle Sisters. I don't know why )

[Whatever]

eyeheartsansa, on 02 November 2011 - 03:42 PM, said:

ETA: I'm not clear on whatever jon did that was so terrible.  he is pretty high up on the good list as far as I'm concerned.

People can still be 'good' even if they are not completely above reproach.  Bran's serious breach of warging etiquette is not that big of a deal to me. he has been in some extreme circumstances and he's 9.

okay, let's not turn it into a Jaime thread. This is my just my personal opinion, I'm just talking about "abosolutely morally good" here, which is why Jaime is on my list (because he looks like he's headed on the 'moral realism' road. He's going to pull a Ned Stark sooner or later) and Jon is not (because he started compromising in ordar to achieva what he think is right, which is not a completely "good" behavior. As Jon says in dance 'there's blood on his hands')

PS: i'm not saying that i think the characters on my list are the bestest or whatever.. just that their moral is pretty strong. I'd take Jon over Ned, for example, but Ned is on the list and Jon is not

[brashcandy]

Tin Pony, on 02 November 2011 - 03:55 PM, said:

and then kill the person?

Im not advocating slavery at all. Just saying she was sort of an bad- ass for doing that. In fact I thought it was awesome while reading it.

I thought I would fix your quote for you

[mediocre cheese]

Quote

But killing them with no warning doesn't make you good no matter what the reasons were.

Hell she couldve declared "Im not paying for these slaves because its vile and wrong. Try and stop me and I'll roast you with my dragons" (not even saying this is something anyone would likely do) but the debate was whether hers was a good action or not.

They were monsters (each unsullied meant one stabbed baby). They deserved death far more than that deserter who ned executes at the start of the series. Killing them meant that thousands of future babies would live. Honestly if people are going to count Ned as good despite his execution of deserters, I can't see how dany can be considered anything less than heroic for eliminating people who are murdering thousands of babies for their own profit. And no she couldn't have said she wasn't paying, because they had the unsullied who would've killed her and her dragons if she tried

[Tin Pony]

brashcandy, on 02 November 2011 - 04:00 PM, said:

I thought I would fix your quote for you

Thank you. Normally I play the part of the spelling police among my friends, yet here I am making mistakes.

[Tin Pony]

My point is just that murder is typically not in the "good" category. I realize that the slavers were all really awful people.

You could also make the case that Dany started a war that didn't need to be started. Thousands die in wars including the wars now going on in Slaver's Bay/Essos and that could have been prevented without Dany's actions.

[Rapsie]

Okay

1. Tommen (Ser Pounce, Boots and Lady Whiskers are just too cute)
2. Davos
3. Pod (I really hope he's alive)
4. Brienne
5. Mya (my dark horse bet for the series)
6. Sansa
7.Elleria Sand (just say when enough is enough)
8. Hodor
9. Meera
10. Samwell Tarly

[eyeheartsansa]

Tin Pony, on 02 November 2011 - 04:06 PM, said:

My point is just that murder is typically not in the "good" category. I realize that the slavers were all really awful people.

You could also make the case that Dany started a war that didn't need to be started. Thousands die in wars including the wars now going on in Slaver's Bay/Essos and that could have been prevented without Dany's actions.

Yeah.. like I said, I am tougher on Dany for not realizing the ripple effect of what she did, and how much suffering it was going to cause in the long run.  But that doesn't make her 'not good,' it just makes her shortsighted and naive, like a teenager.

[mediocre cheese]

Tin Pony, on 02 November 2011 - 04:06 PM, said:

My point is just that murder is typically not in the "good" category. I realize that the slavers were all really awful people. You could also make the case that Dany started a war that didn't need to be started. Thousands die in wars including the wars now going on in Slaver's Bay/Essos and that could have been prevented without Dany's actions.

The same is true for Ned, and Robb (who have endlessly been cited as good characters in this thread). Ned tried to start a war which would result in thousands dying, because he was concerned about bloodlines and primogeniture. Robb refused to a peace whereby thousands of lives would've been saved because he was angry about the life of a single man, his father.

[ARYa_Nym]

AverageCheese, on 02 November 2011 - 04:11 PM, said:

The same is true for Ned, and Robb (who have endlessly been cited as good characters in this thread). Ned tried to start a war which would result in thousands dying, because he was concerned about bloodlines and primogeniture. Robb refused to a peace whereby thousands of lives would've been saved because he was angry about the life of a single man, his father.

True, Robb could have been like Doran Martell. The Lannisters killed Elia and her children but he kept Dorne out of the war.

[mediocre cheese]

Ellaria Sand is a good choice, I forgot about her.

None of the characters listed have made the sacrifices in order to protect innocents that Chelsted and Willem Darry did. I challenge anyone to give a good reason to keep them off the list.

Quote

I'd take Jaime over Barristan any day

Jaime stood by and watched dudes getting burned just like barristan did. The only difference is Barristan fought till he was no longer physically capable of doing so, whereas Jaime ditched aerys once the tagaryens were defeated. Rats always flee a sinking ship.

[fassreiter]

Davos.
And I want to throw in Cortnay Penrose. And rule out Stannis and Melisandre in the same instant.

[The King in the South]

AverageCheese, on 02 November 2011 - 04:16 PM, said:

Ellaria Sand is a good choice, I forgot about her.

None of the characters listed have made the sacrifices in order to protect innocents that Chelsted and Willem Darry did. I challenge anyone to give a good reason to keep them off the list.



Jaime stood by and watched dudes getting burned just like barristan did. The only difference is Barristan fought till he was no longer physically capable of doing so, whereas Jaime ditched aerys once the tagaryens were defeated. Rats always flee a sinking ship.

Rofl what? Barristan stood by and fought for a murderous maniac on the pretense of honor.
Jaime killed that maniac, saving thousands of lives and pretty much condemning his own to a lifetime of mocking.
Jaime's not a good character, but he's certainly no worse than Barristan.