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Catelyn is an idiot


LilyFlower

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I really didn't like Catelyn Stark in GoT and I really hate here in SoS. Am I the only person who thinks this woman is an idiot? Going back to her capturing Tyrion, without any valid proof, that he had anything to do with Bran's fall. Yeah she got that questionable letter from Lysa about the Lannisters, but that doesn't mean you just kidnap any random Lannister on the road. Especially the brother-in-law to the king. Then there was her choice to say by her ailing father's side and leave her two young sons alone in Winterfell. At first, it was because she wanted to stay by Robb's side, but when he went west, she changed it to wanting to be with her father. No way you can convince me she wasn't part of the reason why the unprotected Winterfell ended up falling. Then, it was her decision to let the Jaime escape on a hope and a prayer that Sansa (and Arya) would be released. Even though everyone had already pretty much made it clear that it was an uneven trade before she let him go. How dumb can you be? Even with Jaime back the Lannisters wouldn't release the girls until Robb could bend the knee and answer for his treason.

I'm not finished with SoS, but I'm praying she dies off somewhere. Completely useless character.

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I really didn't like Catelyn Stark in GoT and I really hate here in SoS. Am I the only person who thinks this woman is an idiot? Going back to her capturing Tyrion, without any valid proof, that he had anything to do with Bran's fall. Yeah she got that questionable letter from Lysa about the Lannisters, but that doesn't mean you just kidnap any random Lannister on the road. Especially the brother-in-law to the king. Then there was her choice to say by her ailing father's side and leave her two young sons alone in Winterfell. At first, it was because she wanted to stay by Robb's side, but when he went west, she changed it to wanting to be with her father. No way you can convince me she wasn't part of the reason why the unprotected Winterfell ended up falling. Then, it was her decision to let the Jaime escape on a hope and a prayer that Sansa (and Arya) would be released. Even though everyone had already pretty much made it clear that it was an uneven trade before she let him go. How dumb can you be? Even with Jaime back the Lannisters wouldn't release the girls until Robb could bend the knee and answer for his treason.

I'm not finished with SoS, but I'm praying she dies off somewhere. Completely useless character.

I think it might help your reading if you realize that its not really Catelyn Stark's fault for being who or what she is, but rather what the author wrote her out to be. :D

I see her as the flip side of Cersei Lannister. Catelyn and Cersei are remarkably very similar - proud, rash, impetuous, prone to irrational decisions, and liable to take any disagreement with their actions as a personal affront and very poor in their logic base decision making.

You can read why the decision to kidnap Tyrion was irrational because she doesn't think carefully over her decisions.

Or : why Catelyn's decision was really stupid

http://asoiaf.wester...ost__p__2751127

I wished that GRRM wrote a really good intelligent, sensible character was had the brains of LF - mayhaps "The Lady of Thorns" might be such a character but we can't be certain at this stage.

But as it is - most of the women character come off very badly in GRRM's world- either than the victims or idiots - the Martell "snakes" are terrible caricatures imho.

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  • 1 month later...

Oh please, I cringe when I see her chapters, Tywin Lannister? Roose Bolton? Don't hate none of them as much as I despise Catelyn, her husband died she just became a moody old maid. Instead of going to look after her two young boys at home she stayed with Robb, trying to gain some power in his 'court.'

Then she becomes worse, she fears her children are dead that is obviously heart breaking but there's only so much sorrow this reader could stomach before my opinions of her soured.

Imagine my joy when she was killed at the Red Wedding, then imagine my dissapointment when at the end she bleeming resurfaces again arghhh!

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Oh please, I cringe when I see her chapters, Tywin Lannister? Roose Bolton? Don't hate none of them as much as I despise Catelyn, her husband died she just became a moody old maid. Instead of going to look after her two young boys at home she stayed with Robb, trying to gain some power in his 'court.'

Then she becomes worse, she fears her children are dead that is obviously heart breaking but there's only so much sorrow this reader could stomach before my opinions of her soured.

Imagine my joy when she was killed at the Red Wedding, then imagine my dissapointment when at the end she bleeming resurfaces again arghhh!

Okay, tell me how you feel if your spouse and two smallest children die due to your son's friend's betrayal. On top of it, she already believes Arya dead (And is praying that Jaime is able to return her not if he will) and Sansa is in the hands of her enemies.

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Oh please, I cringe when I see her chapters, Tywin Lannister? Roose Bolton? Don't hate none of them as much as I despise Catelyn, her husband died she just became a moody old maid. Instead of going to look after her two young boys at home she stayed with Robb, trying to gain some power in his 'court.'

Then she becomes worse, she fears her children are dead that is obviously heart breaking but there's only so much sorrow this reader could stomach before my opinions of her soured.

Imagine my joy when she was killed at the Red Wedding, then imagine my dissapointment when at the end she bleeming resurfaces again arghhh!

Agreed. My two youngest children are left alone at home while I attend my dad who's been dying for years dispite the fact that my brother and uncle are already there and have been since I left to get married and start my own family. She's selfish and stupid.

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Okay, tell me how you feel if your spouse and two smallest children die due to your son's friend's betrayal. On top of it, she already believes Arya dead (And is praying that Jaime is able to return her not if he will) and Sansa is in the hands of her enemies.

Look, I understand she had torment and heartbreak, but it was her decision to leave Bran and Rickon at Winterfell, while she harasses Robb, letting go of Jamie was just stupid, he is a Lannister, the Lannister's tried to kill her Bran twice, so now she lets one who seemingly breaks oaths go on a slim chance her daughters would be returned... ye right.

She should of stayed at Winterfall and looked after her young children, she didn't and so she lost them (or so she thought.)

I'm sorry I had a bit of sympathy when Ned was killed, then she got a whole lot worse and now I have very little sympathy for this woman.

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Sometimes, I don't know why I bother. But, once more unto the breach...

I really didn't like Catelyn Stark in GoT and I really hate here in SoS. Am I the only person who thinks this woman is an idiot?

No. You'd be surprised how many people are unsympathetic readers, have an inability or lack of desire to contextualize, are biased against feminine tropes, and prefer binary judgments of the smart/not smart, good/evil, hot/not variety, or some combination of the above. This thread is evidence of that.

Going back to her capturing Tyrion, without any valid proof, that he had anything to do with Bran's fall.

She didn't do it because he had anything to do with Bran's fall, exactly. She did it because she knew the Lannisters in general had something to do with what happened to Bran (which was true enough) and because she feared what would happen to Ned and her daughters in King's Landing if he reached the city to reveal that she had met her on the road back from King's Landing, a fact that had been kept secret from Cersei and Jaime, a fact that Tyrion could very easily have learned from the likes of Marillion or the groom at the inn who knew they were coming on the kingsroad from the south.

She was legitimately concerned that Tyrion's information would lead to the Lannisters going on the offensive, fearing that Catelyn had revealed something that would set Robert upon them. Which she may well have been correct about. If Cersei learned Catelyn had been talking to Ned in secret and shortly afterward learned that Bran woke up, she might decide to put two and two together and suppose that Bran, on waking, told all and now Ned knew everything. Hence the secrecy, and hence the fear that Ned was going to move against them. When faced with a dilemma, Cersei often charges at it, and I expect she really would have made an attempt on Ned's life rather than risk his revealing anything to Robert.

That Tywin used this as an excuse to launch an offensive against the riverlands seems to do with the fact that the Lannisters were in fact preparing the coup that the Starks feared but couldn't quite imagine. "How did this happen?" in the series is often answered with, "The Lannisters are scheming bastards." Pillorying Catelyn for it is senseless.

Yeah she got that questionable letter from Lysa about the Lannisters, but that doesn't mean you just kidnap any random Lannister on the road.

She had the circumstancial evidence of someone trying to murder her son to keep a secret, someone of significant power, wealth, and arrogance, which kind of limits the field of potential killers to the Lannisters or Robert. She had the word of a long-time family friend who always harbored a special liking for her, as she understood it.

Then there was her choice to say by her ailing father's side and leave her two young sons alone in Winterfell.

No one bitches and moans about Ned taking off to leave his two young sons without a father, possibly for many years. Lame.

Those boys have high walls and guards and servants to protect and raise them for a few months. When she decides to see her father, she has already shown that she is playing a vital role in Robb's efforts against the Lannisters, having secured the Frey alliance that no one else could have achieved. Robb's the future of the house. He needs her advice far more than Bran and Rickon need her around to kiss their boo-boos.

At first, it was because she wanted to stay by Robb's side, but when he went west, she changed it to wanting to be with her father.

For that matter... why the hell not? What harm is a parent being away for a few months from their kids going to do, when this is their final chance to be with her father? When Hoster dies, that's it, he's never going to be around again. Her boys will always be there... provided her son wins the war, in any case, and doesn't do anything really stupid like ignore her advice about not sending your ward/hostage to his father.

No way you can convince me she wasn't part of the reason why the unprotected Winterfell ended up falling.

She was. Oh, she was part of the reason. Because she chose not to slap Robb atop his head and ground him for a month when he decided to send Theon to Pyke.

That, there, is the main reason as to why Winterfell fell.

If she were in Winterfell, nothing would have changed -- Rodrik would still have taken all but a skeleton force, and she would have agreed to it, because it made sense. Who would dare to try and take Winterfell with only a dozen men? Well, Theon, that's who, but they didn't know that, did they? Heck, I don't suppose Catelyn would even have been aware that he sent Theon away if she had been shipped off to the North at the same time. Robb barely sent any information to Winterfell of his doings, from what we see of Bran's chapters in ACoK.

Then, it was her decision to let the Jaime escape on a hope and a prayer that Sansa (and Arya) would be released

She had no hope and prayer of ever having them released otherwise.

Even though everyone had already pretty much made it clear that it was an uneven trade before she let him go.

You know what's unequal?

People ignoring the fact that Jaime's status at a hostage did nothing whatosever to change Tywin's campaign efforts. Nothing. He was not intimidated by their holding Jaime.

He tried to force the crossing of the Red Fork with Jaime in their hands.

He razed the riverlands from the Green Fork to the Red Fork with Jaime in their hands.

He married off Sansa to Tyrion, not concerned about how Robb might take it, what they might do to Jaime in a punitive way, with Jaime in ther hands.

He plotted the Red Wedding with Walder Frey and Roose Bolton, with Jaime in their hands.

Jaime was a worthless hostage. Robb held him with the tiny hope that somehow he wouldn't be worthless, that something would come along to make him worthwhile, and also in large part out of a personal sense of revenge and hate towards the Lannisters, frankly, which was unworthy in a king, but understandable in a person. But understandable does not make right. Catelyn was not "right" to take Tyrion from our god-like nigh-omniscient perspective, but her choice was understandable within the context of the information she had and the legitimate fears she held.

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Sometimes, I don't know why I bother. But, once more unto the breach...

No. You'd be surprised how many people are unsympathetic readers, have an inability or lack fo desire to contextualize, are biased against feminine tropes, and prefer binary judgments of the smart/not smart, good/evil, hot/not variety, or some combination of the above. This thread is evidence of that.

I'm on hiatus from participating in Catelyn hate threads, but... :bowdown: ...to your entire post.

(alas, I'm out of "likes" for the moment...)

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I'm always amazed by the bad press Catelyn gets from some readers. My strongest memory of reading AGOT for the first time was how effective the Catelyn chapters were, from the point of view of the limited information and misinformation available to her those decisions seemed totally convincing to me. Maybe she's not stay at home /high kicking enough for some people?

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He plotted the Red Wedding with Walder Frey and Roose Bolton, with Jaime in their hands.

Jaime was a worthless hostage.

Off topic but...

Jaime had already escaped by the time they started plotting, which Tywin knew about a few days after. He wasn't completely worthless either. Tywin may not have been cowed by Jaimie being a hostage but Cersei was. Joff would have shot Sansa if not for his mother saying they'd kill his uncle. Not to mention just not having Jaime back in the field, which was an advantage all on its own.

Ah, the usual "How dare she stay with her dying father and try to help in the war, instead of being back in the kitchen taking care of the kids" inane sexist rant, about time it appeared again, it's been a while.

There was nothing sexist about it.

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What epitomizes Catelyn for me is the casual way in which she dismisses the deaths of lord Karstark's sons - Torhenn and Eddard - who died so that her son Robb could live.

You can actually sense her relief that the blood on Robb's precious arm is simply the brains of Torhenn Karstark, or the intestinal fluid of Eddard Karstark, rather than a scratch on HER son.

Catelyn's problem is that she is incredibly self centered. You see it in her treatment of Robb, and you see it in her lack of empathy for Rickard Karstark's loss.

And you see it in her treatment of Jon Snow. A gentler woman with a kinder heart would have raised Jon as if he was her own child, merely because of the love she bore Eddard and out of basic human empathy.

Instead, she acts like the archetypal evil stepmother.

Of Eddard and Torhenn Karstark, she says:

"They did what any bannerman should have done, which is protect their liege lord".

Sure. If Robb took Jaime Lannister's sword through his brain in the act of protecting Robert Baratheon, would she be as matter of fact about it?

Her release of Jaime is the ultimate contempt shown to Karstark's loss.

My favorite character in this series is a woman - Arya.

But my least favorite is also a woman. And yes, it is indeed Catelyn Tully.

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Catelyn's problem is that she is incredibly self centered. You see it in her treatment of Robb, and you see it in her lack of empathy for Rickard Karstark's loss.

And you see it in her treatment of Jon Snow. A gentler woman with a kinder heart would have raised Jon as if he was her own child, merely because of the love she bore Eddard and out of basic human empathy.

Instead, she acts like the archetypal evil stepmother.

I just knew this was coming. Those threads are so predictable...

Time for the classic response then - I am sure if your wife tells you she cheated on you and now is pregnant with another man's child, but the father of this child has died, you'll be happy to raise this child as your own and love him the same as your own kids. Unless you are lacking basic human empathy, according to your own argument.

What epitomizes Catelyn for me is the casual way in which she dismisses the deaths of lord Karstark's sons - Torhenn and Eddard - who died so that her son Robb could live.

You can actually sense her relief that the blood on Robb's precious arm is simply the brains of Torhenn Karstark, or the intestinal fluid of Eddard Karstark, rather than a scratch on HER son.

That's only your impression, I don't see anything like this in the text.

Of Eddard and Torhenn Karstark, she says:

"They did what any bannerman should have done, which is protect their liege lord".

So? That's totally true according to the Westerosi worldview. And their father wasn't there to make it really insensitive thing to say.

You know what else Cat said right after that, BTW - "Grieve for them. Honor them for their valor."

Let's not forget that all guys in Robb's personal guard in the Whispering Wood were there because they wanted that honour.

Sure. If Robb took Jaime Lannister's sword through his brain in the act of protecting Robert Baratheon, would she be as matter of fact about it?

Of course not, but people care a lot more about their children than about people they barely know.

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I think arguing that we're sexist just because we simply don't love one female character is pretty awful.

I don't read Arya chapters and think to myself, 'dear God why is the GIRL holding a sword, she should be off learning to stitch and so on.' I don't read Daenerys chapters and think, 'pfft those dragons should belong to a MAN.'

Also my argument was that I hate her for moaning about her kids who she left, not that she should be there. Hell if Ned had lived to moan about his kids I'd have hated him too. People have different opinions, branding us sexist for not liking Catelyn is disgusting, it would be pretty boring if we all had the same views on the vile Catelyn.

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I think arguing that we're sexist just because we simply don't love one female character is pretty awful.

I don't read Arya chapters and think to myself, 'dear God why is the GIRL holding a sword, she should be off learning to stitch and so on.' I don't read Daenerys chapters and think, 'pfft those dragons should belong to a MAN.'

Also my argument was that I hate her for moaning about her kids who she left, not that she should be there. Hell if Ned had lived to moan about his kids I'd have hated him too. People have different opinions, branding us sexist for not liking Catelyn is disgusting, it would be pretty boring if we all had the same views on the vile Catelyn.

Nobody said you are sexist for not loving her. You can hate her as much as you want, your call. All I said that was the whole "she should've stayed at home" argument you made was somewhat sexist

Plus you wrote this in your previous post "She should of stayed at Winterfall and looked after her young children, she didn't and so she lost them (or so she thought.)". It sure seems like you were arguing she should've been there...

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I think your confusing sexist with common sense, my problem is she moaps about loosing them, yet, she left them there alone in Winterfell, as indeed did Ned.

Also the whole 'she should of stayed at home' has nothing to do with her being a woman, but it has all to do with her being a parent, she stuck around Robb too much considering he was surrounded by great Lords and their armies where as Bran and Rickon (one disabled and one very young) were left in a pretty much defenseless castle :)

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