Catelyn is an idiot

[Ygrette]

@Onion

As I said, she certainly does have a crooked relationship and attitude towards Jon. Undoubtedly so. And I'm also sure Jon felt bad about that and to some degree, we might even call her behaviour abusive. Still, I don't think that this relationship alone defines her character.

I'll be happy to hear the stuff you didn't come around to saying, though. ;)

"I cannot yield, I cannot forgive, not even in secret, not even just between us."

"...at the least really not right now, of all moments, because I am griefstricken and all I can think of right now is Bran and my pain, so I'd lash out at everyone, you most of all, because I've never liked you".

That's how I see this scene.

Had it been an otherwise emotionally neutral scene between the two of them, that would make it completely different for me. I'm not saying her anger towards Jon isn't real, I just think of all moments this one would have been the last for her to able to let her guards down and open her heart to him. And it's a bit much to ask for (IMO) in this situation. If your child is hurt, you want to rip pretty much everybody's head off. Or maybe it's just me - but I totally get that this isn't the moment to discuss her bottled up anger or set it aside.

I really don't believe she had thought "harr, there's that stupid brat and we're all alone, now I can finally yell at him like I've always wanted, muharrhar".

A couple of years ago my 4 year old daughter fell off a misbehaved horse and broke her arm. If I hadn't all of my self-control gathered that moment, I would have probably knocked out the riding instructor, whipped the poor pony and yelled at my mother who couldn't stop saying "I told you so". Now, if I imagine someone walked up to me in that moment whom I've hated for years and never really lashed out at them and bottled my feelings for 15 years. Well, this would have been the moment I might have actually said something mean to them. Something really mean that makes them run off crying. No matter what they had said. Even if in a weak moment I might have softened for them, this would not have been the day.

So, that's that.

But of all moments in my life, I certainly wish one would not pick that one to judge my character. And just for the record: I don't go around yelling at or bullying people. Not even if I hate them, not even if they're helpless and alone with me.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

"...at the least really not right now, of all moments, because I am griefstricken and all I can think of right now is Bran and my pain, so I'd lash out at everyone, you most of all, because I've never liked you".

That's how I see this scene.

Had it been an otherwise emotionally neutral scene between the two of them, that would make it completely different for me. I'm not saying her anger towards Jon isn't real, I just think of all moments this one would have been the last for her to able to let her guards down and open her heart to him. And it's a bit much to ask for (IMO) in this situation. If your child is hurt, you want to rip pretty much everybody's head off. Or maybe it's just me - but I totally get that this isn't the moment to discuss her bottled up anger or set it aside.

I really don't believe she had thought "harr, there's that stupid brat and we're all alone, now I can finally yell at him like I've always wanted, muharrhar".

Well...there are a lot of options between "opening her heart to Jon" and "Muharrhar!"

"For Bran's sake, say your piece and go" or even just a catching one anothers eye for a silent moment of understanding. Something short of "Must I summon the guards!" (Wow, that sounds like something Cersei would say) :)

FTR - I do not see Cat as a mustache twirling "muharrhar" villain here. I see something much sadder. I see a person dangling above the abyss, and whose long time enemy reaches out a hand to pull them to safety, and who then for hate and pride's sake pulls back their own hand only to fall into the abyss.

If Cat and Jon, together, had discovered Bran at the foot of the tower and Cat had lashed out at him out of shock or hystery who could blame her. If Jon had inisted on being in the room immediately after, he might had been asking for a svever rebuke...he was careful to stay away for two weeks. Cat's, "I was in shock" excuse wears a little thin in my view.

This line "But of all moments in my life, I certainly wish one would not pick that one to judge my character..." made me think of Jackie Kennedy. Whatever else she did in her life before or after the JFK asassination, what people remember her for is her grace and dignity in the most publicly tragic circumstances maybe in the history of earth. She was the very definition of a great lady.

I think it is interesting that Jon does not run away from Bran's bedside crying, nor does he complain to Robb, nor does he even curse her for a bitch under his breath. He is generous to Cat and spares Robb harsh words with his mother. The bastard chooses to be noble. The high born lady, not so much.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

But how it's mistreatment Jon not to be seated on the royal table? It's basic protocol - only the trueborn high nobles gets places there. Nobody else from those living in Winterfell was seated there either. I doubt even if Ned had to decide on his own, he'd have put Jon on the table - he's willing to disregard conventions to a degree, but it was hardly a secret that Cersei is touchy about bastards and Robert doesn't dare bring his own to the capital. That's even without taking into account the "R+L=J" theory.

I don't see what's so wrong with Catelyn drawing sharp line between her children and Jon. Fact is he's not her child, neither is she expected to be any kind of stepmother to him. It's also a fact that trueborn children and bastards have very different prospects in life in Westeros and pretending it isn't so won't change that.

Besides, one of the main expected responsibilities of someone in Ned or Cat's position is to try to avoid anything that could create potential problems with the succession. That's why it was necessary for her to draw clear lines between Jon and his siblings. An acknowledged bastard is a threat for his trueborn siblings, and more so the more he's treated the same as them by the Lord and the Lady. I think lowering the chance of a succession struggle (which can potential lead to plenty of deaths and sufferings) is worth hurting the feelings of one child. You may disagree, of course, but the situation is a lot more complicated than Catelyn being mean to Jon just because she was selfish, cold, her pride was hurt and he was a remainder of Ned's infidelity. A major part of her motivation is selfish in as much as protecting her children could be considered selfish, but she was also thinking about the bigger picture.

And before anyone says "But Jon would've never done that since he is honourable and loves his siblings" - Cat had no way to know this for sure, especially when Jon was younger, since people change with age. Jon's possible children were also a potential thread.

I'm not buying this argument in several places. Of course I understand that in Westeros bastards are not treated well and the royal family, especially Queen Cersei, would very likely have been offended by having Jon in their presence. The whole society is unfair to bastards in general. I don't see how this excuses Catelyn at all. Somehow the rest of Winterfell saw fit to treat Jon nicely even though he was a bastard and for most of them not their flesh and blood. So it's really fairly clear that this is Catelyn expressing her personal anger over the slight to her honor, and not Catelyn being a stickler about the rules of class. She is using these rules to stick it to this poor kid who has done absolutely nothing to her. And so when GRRM makes it clear that over the years she made very certain to let everyone know that Jon was unequal to her children, she is abusing a child- even if it's in a less direct way than constant berating.

I really dislike the argument that Jon, as a bastard, was a threat to her children's inheritance. For starters, I think it's unjust that bastards can't inherit anything. But setting that aside (because I don't place the burden of fixing society's ills on Cat or any other single person), the association between bastardy and treachery or a threat to 'proper' succession is spurious. People will undoubtedly be able to come up with examples of bastards challenging trueborn children for succession and inheritance, but there are far more examples of threats from non-bastards. Renly tries to usurp Stannis' claim, for example, even though Renly was not a bastard. Perhaps Cassana did a poor job of putting Renly in his youngest-brother place? Maybe Cat shouldn't be grieving for Bran at all, because he is a potential challenge to the rights of her eldest, Robb. But more than that, most of the threats are actually going to come from outsiders. There is not actually anything about bastards that make them more threatening. People end up coming to a point where they are defending Cat's suspicions of bastards, which is actually a false suspicion.

You suggest that Cat would have been doing Jon no favors by being nice to him, because it might give him the wrong idea about how other people in the world would treat him. I'm certain Cat was not alienating Jon with the intention of toughening him up for life. Cat views him as the embodiment of a personal slight, and uses his bastardy as the tool to degrade him and separate him from his brothers and sisters.

@Onion

As I said, she certainly does have a crooked relationship and attitude towards Jon. Undoubtedly so. And I'm also sure Jon felt bad about that and to some degree, we might even call her behaviour abusive. Still, I don't think that this relationship alone defines her character.

I'll be happy to hear the stuff you didn't come around to saying, though. ;)

I think you're right that this relationship alone doesn't define her character in one sense and wrong in another. The sense that you are right is that, yes, for most people it would be unfair to judge them based on a single incident or single relationship. I think you're wrong in the sense that I think the rest of Cat's actions are in keeping with the way she treats Jon, in the sense that all she really seems to care about is herself and her immediate family and she has the tendency to devalue the opinions and wellbeing of other people- especially if they are of a lower class or social status (which is almost everyone around her given that she is a Tully married to a Stark and then mother of the King in the North). I think you are wrong in the sense that narratively the first actions we see a character take in any book/tv show/movie are meant to define them in our minds. This is why we see Ned's rigid sense of honor and duty- 'he who passes the sentence should swing the blade' (I think I'm misquoting this slightly but we all know the quote. Of course, sometimes in GRRMworld, we have a major character arc swing a la Jaime Lannister, but we still don't lose sight of the man we first met. First impressions are very important in the real world but probably even more important in storytelling because the storyteller is intentionally crafting our first impression. I think GRRM is still establishing who Catelyn is with this scene and that it is in keeping with the rest of her personality, which does not undergo a major shift later on (setting Stoneheart aside, even though I think there is direct continuity between Cat and Stoneheart).

Now is where I'd get to those other moments that I think are in keeping with her treatment of Jon. But first I should say that Cat is the character who makes my teeth grind the most, not the one who does the worst things. She is no Gregor Clegane, but Gregor doesn't frustrate me because I don't live inside his screwed up head- I read about his horrible actions and hate him for it. Somehow though I end up feeling my Cat frustration more intensely than my Gregor hate, I hope that makes sense. She isn't evil, but gods I don't think she is a very nice person and it frustrates the shit out of me to live in her head for chapters and chapters.

She has a strong sense of entitlement and a harsh judgement (not always outwardly expressed but we see her thoughts). She derides Edmure for taking the smallfolk into Riverrun. They are war ravaged and afraid, and Edmure has taken them in- as one would think a Lord should given the social contract that feudalism is based upon, protection for food. And Catelyn basically thinks, oh my brother the sweet fool, taking peasants in during war what a mistake. Now, on the one hand we can say she is being militarily and strategically astute here, and she is also acknowledging that what Edmure is doing is nice. On the other hand, I don't like a person who has so internalized her innate superiority to the smallfolk that she has no problem with the stores of Riverrun feeding her in the event of a siege, even though she is of no military value but thinks the smallfolk are an unworthy tax on their resources.

She frees Jaime. Ok, most people agree that this was not a smart move, but I'm with you if you defend her by saying she thought it was the only way she could get her children back and she had just learned about Bran and Rickon 'dying', etc etc extenuating circumstsances. What I really can't stand is her behavior after the fact. Edmure, poor kindhearted Edmure, comes to her and says "Ok Cat don't worry I've got people out after Jaime and I've sent some birds out saying he escaped so we can get you out of trouble here no one needs to know what you did." And she responds by lashing into him about being such an idiot because if people think Jaime escaped they won't have to honor the prisoner exchange. She thinks to herself what a fool Edmure is. I'm sorry but I honestly want to shake her and explain that it isn't cool to call someone an idiot after you've just made an astoundingly idiotic- not to mention illegal- decision yourself. Cat sends Jaime off on a wing-and-a-prayer's chance of actually getting through the war torn Riverlands and then being exhanged for her daughters, and then has the gall to think Edmure is a moron for trying to protect HER from culpability!

She thinks Karstark's sons did their duty in dying for Robb and their father has no right to want to kill Jaime. She thinks the Stark and Tully bannerman are wrong to want to continue the war and get their revenge against the Lannisters. She wants the war- which she had her part in starting- to just stop because she can't have Ned back but she can get her daughters back. And she derides all the Lords around her for wanting to fight for vengeance. But when Theon 'kills' Bran and Rickon, she doesn't say, what will war against the Greyjoys do for us? It won't bring Bran and Rickon back, let's just get peace with the Lannisters and the Greyjoys. No no, at this point she says 'vengeance is all we have left.'

She just goes around looking down on people, thinking little and less of their opinions, desires, and ideas while she herself is not only making some poor decisions but also changing her mind depending on her self-involved whims. Cat cares about her personal honor and about protecting her children- the concerns of other people simply don't register with her. So Jaime Lannister goes free because she wants her daughters back. And they're all a bunch of fools for wanting revenge against the Lannisters, but vengeance against the Greyjoys is all she has left. And this might even be fine if she showed me any real instances of kindness or compassion. I get so frustrated with her because all I see is fickleness, entitlement, and judgement. No, she doesn't do anything 'evil,' but she does think she's the smartest person in the room and doesn't place a lot of value on the opinions of people who aren't her or the lives of people who aren't her children.

If you've made it this far, thankyou for reading my ridiculously long post.

[Drowsey Dragon]

Very true. No argument there.

It is hard for me to give Cat very much credit for anything she does in defense of her own blood, because I see that as an extension of herself. It's with other people where I think she a disturbing lack of empathy. I am not saying Cat is a monster, she obviously has courage, intelligence, determination and certain leadership qualities, but I think there is a serious flaw in there somewhere.

Even Cersei, who is thoroughly narcissistic, loves her children.

If she had no empathy for others, she never would have prayed at the Sept for the life of others and would have let Brienne die in the tent after Renly died. She saved her out of Empathy, she had no use of Brienne at that time, she hardly knew anything about her. These are just two examples of Cat showing Empathy for others outside her family.

[Drowsey Dragon]

I've been lurking for quite a while and am making my first post just to agree with this and extend on it. It's not just "her son's brother is nothing" - other people's sons are nothing as well. I agree with a lot of what has been said of Cat in terms of her being selfish, cold, and self-absorbed. I don't think she's evil or maliciously cruel. But "not cruel" doesn't equate to "nice".

My point about it's all about her children and to hell with everyone else's is her reaction and complete lack of empathy to Rickard Karstark and his reaction to the death of his sons. She would do or say anything to protect or avenge her sons but can't possibly understand why Karstark may feel the same. She even says at one point that he shouldn't be upset because they died defending their liege lord as they were required to do. To a parent who's grieving, she should get that it doesn't matter how your children died, just that they're dead. And then turns around and shrugs off others' anger and grief over her releasing Jaime because all that matters was that it was in her best interest to do so. I'm not debating whether it was wrong or right of her to do so. Just that she did it based on what she wanted and it didn't matter what others may have needed for their own family peace.

As far as Jon is concerned, I don't believe at all that her cruel comments to Jon in Bran's room were an isolated incident. Jon's reaction to just entering the room, Robb's apprehension about how the interaction went and other moments such as these let me know that in no time in those 14 years did she ever have a kind word or gesture to that boy. Perhaps she never said anything as cruel as saying he should be the one dying instead of Bran, but there's plenty of ways to emotionally and verbally abuse children without saying or doing extreme things such as that. Sansa's whole "he's our half brother" bit and all the children referring to him as their "bastard brother", where do you think they got that from? I doubt it was Ned.

Now I'm not a mother but I have some experience with this as my father had a son with another woman while he was married to my mother. As angry and hurt as my mother was, she always made a point of not taking her anger out on my brother because, as she says, "he didn't ask to be here". Now my brother didn't live with us, but she did make sure that he and I eventually met and got to know each other. If anyone took their anger out on him, it was me, not my mom. And I got past that once I realized who I needed to be angry towards. She was even able to deal with him on family trips sometimes.

Now I'm not saying Cat should have embraced Jon with all her heart. That's a lot to ask of anyone. But I don't get how in 14 years you couldn't find any place in your heart for this child that you pretty much raised and took all your anger and resentment for your husband's infidelity out on the child. That, in my mind, makes her not a nice person.

How you and your mother treated your brother is totally irrelevant. You live on earth in 2012. Not in Westeros. By the standards of the time in that world, Cat treated him quite well as I have referenced before. Not well as we would judge it, but for that society she did. It was quite common for men to have multiple bastards, but never ever have one raised with your trueborn children under your roof. You are unable to see the impact this has on Cat, It is a daily humiliation and she owes nothing to Jon at all.

[Drowsey Dragon]

Two small points:

1) I think maybe I was reading too much into the circumstances of Cat and Ned's marriage (i.e. it was arranged, first it was Brandon, then it was Ned, then it was war, then there is this baby) and that maybe that expalined why Cat was so "weird" in my opinion. It actually mitigates in her favor in a way in that if she was all along making the best of a situation that was not exactly her hearts desire than maybe it is undersnadable why she remains a little salty. However, the quotes provided, 9and others not provided) indicate the Cat and Ned loved each other "ENOUGH" that it is not really an issue. I was off base on that.

2) One of the reasons why I put so much stock in the scene by Bran's sick bed is that the moment was just Jon and Cat. No one as watching. It was a moment where class and convention and even past resentments and slights need not rule day. It was private, they were both scared for Bran and emotionally vulnerable. It is not explicitedly stated this way, but Jon seems to be saying, "Putting our THING aside, I feel your pain." And the best she can manage is, "F-You bastard." That is why it defines the two characters for me. In my mind Jon's defining quality (up to that point anyway) is that he wants to fit in as a Stark, in Cat's eyes as much as Ned's in a way, and her defining quality is, "I cannot yield, I cannot forgive, not even in secret, not even just between us."

and her defining quality is, "I cannot yield, I cannot forgive, not even in secret, not even just between us."

Why should she have to?

[Ygrette]

I think you're wrong in the sense that I think the rest of Cat's actions are in keeping with the way she treats Jon, in the sense that all she really seems to care about is herself and her immediate family and she has the tendency to devalue the opinions and wellbeing of other people- especially if they are of a lower class or social status (which is almost everyone around her given that she is a Tully married to a Stark and then mother of the King in the North).

I see that from a different angle, when she prays for her people in the septon, for example or how she treats servants in Winterfell. I see no cruelty or arrogance there.

I think you are wrong in the sense that narratively the first actions we see a character take in any book/tv show/movie are meant to define them in our minds.

Possibly, but some are seeing "wow, she's mean" and others are seeing "wow, she's in pain". Being a mother in real life, I tend to see and relate to the pain.

(Edmure and the smallfolk)

I think she is actually worried that it's a wrong decision. I don't see the "eeew, look at all those smelly peasants" in her, but more the "uhm... is this really a good idea?"

She thinks to herself what a fool Edmure is. I'm sorry but I honestly want to shake her and explain that it isn't cool to call someone an idiot after you've just made an astoundingly idiotic- not to mention illegal- decision yourself.

I agree with you on that one. Yet in her defence, in her own thoughts she scolds herself several times for her incapability to trust her son and brother. She has troubles taking Edmure and Robb seriously, because she's seen them as "little boys" for all her life. She keeps walking into the trap of believing she's somewhat superior to them and needs to remind herself that actually she's not.

That's not an admirable trait at all, but it's human.

She thinks Karstark's sons did their duty in dying for Robb and their father has no right to want to kill Jaime. She thinks the Stark and Tully bannerman are wrong to want to continue the war and get their revenge against the Lannisters. She wants the war- which she had her part in starting- to just stop because she can't have Ned back but she can get her daughters back. And she derides all the Lords around her for wanting to fight for vengeance. But when Theon 'kills' Bran and Rickon, she doesn't say, what will war against the Greyjoys do for us? It won't bring Bran and Rickon back, let's just get peace with the Lannisters and the Greyjoys. No no, at this point she says 'vengeance is all we have left.'

She's certainly not a strategic mastermind when it comes to her own children being murdered as opposed to other people's children being murdered. But again, to me as a mother, this is human. Not admirable, not honorable or heroic, but human.

You're bringing a couple of good points and I certainly understand why people don't love her. She's not without fault and she can be irrational and quick to judge. The difference between your perception and mine is that mistakes don't make a bad person in my eyes. She's neither a cold strategic mastermind and neither is she mother Teresa, overflowing with love, forgiveness and compassion. She's complex. She can be stubborn, emotional and plain wrong.

But that's what makes her alive to me and a lot more relatable than Daenerys or other characters with the self control and compassion of superhuman heroes. I just cannot hate someone just because they're not heroic. In Catelyn's situation, with my husband and children brutally murdered, I can tell you I'd be a lot less rational, composed and well-behaved as Catelyn.

I can admire characters who are a lot better than me. But still on the other hand, I cannot hate characters who are just like me or even just a little bit better.

[Ygrette]

This line "But of all moments in my life, I certainly wish one would not pick that one to judge my character..." made me think of Jackie Kennedy. Whatever else she did in her life before or after the JFK asassination, what people remember her for is her grace and dignity in the most publicly tragic circumstances maybe in the history of earth. She was the very definition of a great lady.

Here we are again, in the realm of heroes and true great ladies like Daenerys or Jackie Kennedy.

I don't like Catelyn because I think she is angelic, heroic or perfect. Perfection bores me. I like Catelyn because she is relateable, which also means she has feelings, flaws, makes mistakes and stupid decisions.

I think it's just as wrong to judge Jackie Kennedy on the basis of this one situation than it's wrong to judge Catelyn's whole character based on the one relationship. Have you seen the movie "Hero" with Dustin Hoffmann? A rather non-so cool and heroic guy happens to save a couple of people in a plane crash and someone else who happened to look heroic in the scene gets all the fame and attention. It shows very much what I believe here - there are no heroes. And Jackie Kennedy may as well have yelled at her kids at some point or said something horrible and just happened to be very good at presenting herself.

Catelyn certainly sucks at presenting herself, just as Tyrion. ;)

[ShadowKitty]

I don't go around reading interviews really, so I wouldn't say I'm ignoring it so much as I didn't know about it. IMO, if the author didn't make it obvious enough in the text that he has to explain himself later and defend a character, he didn't do a very good job and people have a right to their original opinion.

Agreed. I'm only halfway through reading ASOS atm and haven't read many interviews, but the impression I got from reading AGOT was that Catelyn was really quite horrible to Jon and I felt sorry for him and angry at her on reading it; I saw the shows first and commented to my husband that she came across very badly in the book compared to the shows!

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

If she had no empathy for others, she never would have prayed at the Sept for the life of others and would have let Brienne die in the tent after Renly died. She saved her out of Empathy, she had no use of Brienne at that time, she hardly knew anything about her. These are just two examples of Cat showing Empathy for others outside her family.

I do not contend that Cat is a monster. She is not a cartoonish character. A klleptomaniac does not steal everything that comes within their reach all the time twenty-four hours a day. So what? Cat does a normal thing like praying in a church. Again so what? She is still a hard hearted woman. She shows it over and over. I'll bet bet Cersei prays in church too.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

Here we are again, in the realm of heroes and true great ladies like Daenerys or Jackie Kennedy.

I don't like Catelyn because I think she is angelic, heroic or perfect. Perfection bores me. I like Catelyn because she is relateable, which also means she has feelings, flaws, makes mistakes and stupid decisions.

I think it's just as wrong to judge Jackie Kennedy on the basis of this one situation than it's wrong to judge Catelyn's whole character based on the one relationship. Have you seen the movie "Hero" with Dustin Hoffmann? A rather non-so cool and heroic guy happens to save a couple of people in a plane crash and someone else who happened to look heroic in the scene gets all the fame and attention. It shows very much what I believe here - there are no heroes. And Jackie Kennedy may as well have yelled at her kids at some point or said something horrible and just happened to be very good at presenting herself.

Catelyn certainly sucks at presenting herself, just as Tyrion. ;)

Your line that I quoted implies that I am being unfair by judging a person under stress and in the midst of tragedy. I mention Jackie as an example of a person in that very situation, stress and tragedy, who had a choice. Rise above or sink below. Dany is way to complicated to get into. She deserves her on discussion. :)

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

and her defining quality is, "I cannot yield, I cannot forgive, not even in secret, not even just between us."

Why should she have to?

She shouldn't have to do anything. She is absolutley free to do as she does. All I ask is that she own her choice. Five seconds of private kindness would have demonstrated that she has a heart for a heart and not a stone.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

If she had no empathy for others, she ... would have let Brienne die in the tent after Renly died. She saved her out of Empathy, she had no use of Brienne at that time, she hardly knew anything about her.

One additional comment about Brienne. I said that Cat is cold, selfish, calculating and uses pepole. I used Jaime and Brienne as examples of people that I think she used, but did not have any particularly great affection for, or at least that she did not "love."

I think that for her actions wih regard to saving Brienne indicate that she does not has a callous disregard for human life or a bloodthirsty desire to see innocent people put to death for no reason. In other words she would have needed a logical reason to want Brienne killed. That doesn't prove she has empathy, it proves that she is not mentally ill (i.e. Gregor).

[David Selig]

One additional comment about Brienne. I said that Cat is cold, selfish, calculating and uses pepole. I used Jaime and Brienne as examples of people that I think she used, but did not have any particularly great affection for, or at least that she did not "love."

I think that for her actions wih regard to saving Brienne indicate that she does not has a callous disregard for human life or a bloodthirsty desire to see innocent people put to death for no reason. In other words she would have needed a logical reason to want Brienne killed. That doesn't prove she has empathy, it proves that she is not mentally ill (i.e. Gregor).

But Catelyn had a logical reason to want Brienne killed. under the circumstance (besides not wanting to risk her life to help) This way it's Brienne who is the scapegoat for Renly's death, Catelyn avoids suspicion, and is free to try to get the Tyrells to help her side in the war. Saving Brienne meant strong suspicion that Catelyn was either the killer or an accomplice (since she had helped her get away), and prevented the option of negotiation with the Tyrells.

[Balefont]

But Catelyn had a logical reason to want Brienne killed. under the circumstance (besides not wanting to risk her life to help) This way it's Brienne who is the scapegoat for Renly's death, Catelyn avoids suspicion, and is free to try to get the Tyrells to help her side in the war. Saving Brienne meant strong suspicion that Catelyn was either the killer or an accomplice (since she had helped her get away), and prevented the option of negotiation with the Tyrells.

Exactly. She did for Brienne because it was the right thing to do.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

But Catelyn had a logical reason to want Brienne killed. under the circumstance (besides not wanting to risk her life to help) This way it's Brienne who is the scapegoat for Renly's death, Catelyn avoids suspicion, and is free to try to get the Tyrells to help her side in the war. Saving Brienne meant strong suspicion that Catelyn was either the killer or an accomplice (since she had helped her get away), and prevented the option of negotiation with the Tyrells.

All I see here is a lack of psychopathy, not evidence of a kind heart.

[brashcandy]

All I see here is a lack of psychopathy, not evidence of a kind heart.

Imp, your posts have been magnificent over the last couple of pages. I don't understand this idea that we're supposed to see that Cat is a kind hearted woman because she prays in a church and is relatively nice to Brienne.

Stack these two examples against everything we know of the woman's behaviour and she comes out looking exactly like what she becomes: Lady Stoneheart.

You also made a point in an earlier post on her and Littlefinger. Now it amazes me that Cat decided she could trust this man, not based on this "wonderful" childhood friendship, but what she did to him! After humiliating himself in a duel for her hand, Cat never bothers to even visit or find out how he's doing. And worse of all, she burns a letter he sent her unopened. This is how Cat treats people who don't matter to her/are not family. If she can use them for a purpose then fine, but when that is over, or Cat has not achieved what she wants, she discards of them. Is it any wonder Brienne was hanging from a tree after AFFC?

[ShadowKitty]

brashcandy- can you please edit the spoiler? I haven't read AFFC yet :(

[Hedge Lawyer]

Why do people keep discussing AFFC and ADWD in the Still Reading- Storm of Swords section? It's not very considerate...

[brashcandy]

brashcandy- can you please edit the spoiler? I haven't read AFFC yet :(

Sincerest apologies! :(