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Catelyn is an idiot


LilyFlower

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Also the whole 'she should of stayed at home' has nothing to do with her being a woman, but it has all to do with her being a parent, she stuck around Robb too much considering he was surrounded by great Lords and their armies where as Bran and Rickon (one disabled and one very young) were left in a pretty much defenseless castle :)

Bran and Rickon were surrounded by maesters, master-at-arms, guards, maids and servants that had been helping to raise them for years, and whose loyalty has been proven. On the other hand, Robb was an unexperienced leader surrounded by Lords that'd challenge him for some personal gain at best, or that'd betray him at worst. Plus he happened to be fighting at the very same region where Cat came from. It's seems obvious to me which son needed her the most.

You say "she stuck around Robb too much", but the thing is that of Robb's three great victories against the Lannisters (Whispering Woods, the Camps and Oxcross), the first two were only possible due to Cat's negotiation with the Freys. On the other hand, Robb's great defeats (Winterfell and the Red Wedding) would have been avoided if her advice had been followed.

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Bran and Rickon were surrounded by maesters, master-at-arms, guards, maids and servants that had been helping to raise them for years, and whose loyalty has been proven. On the other hand, Robb was an unexperienced leader surrounded by Lords that'd challenge him for some personal gain at best, or that'd betray him at worst. Plus he happened to be fighting at the very same region where Cat came from. It's seems obvious to me which son needed her the most.

You say "she stuck around Robb too much", but the thing is that of Robb's three great victories against the Lannisters (Whispering Woods, the Camps and Oxcross), the first two were only possible due to Cat's negotiation with the Freys. On the other hand, Robb's great defeats (Winterfell and the Red Wedding) would have been avoided if her advice had been followed.

You make a good case. The difference for me is that Robb has the soldiers from Winterfell, while Bran and Rickon are being raised by loyal maesters etc the castle itself is almost defenseless.

That being said, I can't really argue against you there, what I will say is that I don't like Catelyn and mostly that's because her chapters were constantly full of depression and moaning, but that's just my view of her!

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I think your confusing sexist with common sense, my problem is she moaps about loosing them, yet, she left them there alone in Winterfell, as indeed did Ned.

Also the whole 'she should of stayed at home' has nothing to do with her being a woman, but it has all to do with her being a parent, she stuck around Robb too much considering he was surrounded by great Lords and their armies where as Bran and Rickon (one disabled and one very young) were left in a pretty much defenseless castle :)

OK, maybe it wasn't sexism. But I don't see the common sense. Winterfell was literally 1000 miles if not more from the front lines of the war when Cat decided to stay with Robb and later in Riverrun. Bran and Rickon were safer there than practically anywhere in Westeros. It was well protected and had a decent garrison. It was only due to an extraordinary turn of events for them to get in danger. Besides, Cat's no general or soldier, so she can't help much in defending the castle anyway.

Robb was in a way bigger danger, and Cat was one of the few people around him who he could trust and who had no personal agenda and ambition to deal with, and her knowledge of the Riverlords and Southern politics could help a lot more than what she could've done back in Winterfell. If the war is lost, Bran and Rickon are in big trouble anyway, so helping Robb win the war any way she could took precedence taking care of the two younger children. Plus at Riverrun she could be close to her dying father.

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her chapters were constantly full of depression and moaning, but that's just my view of her!

On that we can agree! :) After all, this is the story of a woman that in a single year endured the beheading of her husband, the kidnapping of her two daughters, the death of her father, and the murder of her three sons.

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On that we can agree! :) After all, this is the story of a woman that in a single year endured the beheading of her husband, the kidnapping of her two daughters, the death of her father, and the murder of her three sons.

As did Arya, only she is 10 years old and alone in a sea of devestation and suffering, not 35 and surrounded by guards and retainers.

Yet Arya is missing that sense of entitlement that is so part of Catelyn's personality. She knows that foraging a heel of hard bread equates to a better day than not having the piece of bread, and takes what she can get and endures what she has to. And she still ends up caring for the less fortunate around her, be it Hot Pie, the little Weasel girl, or Samwell Tarly.

Thankfully, she didn't inherit her mother's self obsessed tendency for self pity and self destructive behavior, to the exclusion of all else.

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You make a good case. The difference for me is that Robb has the soldiers from Winterfell, while Bran and Rickon are being raised by loyal maesters etc the castle itself is almost defenseless.

Apart from all the armed soldiers, you mean?

Winterfell still has hundreds of men under Ser Rodrik's command when Cat decides to stay with Robb. Though what relevance this has to Cat is hard to see - was she some kind of super-ninja warrior who could physically protect Bran and Rickon?

Yet Arya is missing that sense of entitlement that is so part of Catelyn's personality. She knows that foraging a heel of hard bread equates to a better day than not having the piece of bread, and takes what she can get and endures what she has to. And she still ends up caring for the less fortunate around her, be it Hot Pie, the little Weasel girl, or Samwell Tarly.

See... the last two sentences highlight exactly why Arya is like Cat.

Cat is, for a Westerosi noblewoman, eminently practical. She travels without an entourage or any luxuries in both AGOT and ACOK, riding hard, camping by the road when she has to, by her own decision and without a word of complaint. She 'takes what she can get and endures what she has to' all the time. And she certainly 'cares for the less fortunate around her' - more so even than Robb, or Ned. She feel sympathy for Brienne, and rescues her. She remembers the fate of the common people in her prayers. She can even remember the name of the peasant woman who sold shoes at Riverrun when she was a child.

There's a definite angle by the author to draw parallels between Arya and Cat, but many readers don't seem to see it. Cat is not very much like Sansa, in the end. She's not interested in pretty dresses and chivalry. She's a practical woman capable of making do, and I think that if Arya had been returned to her mother, they'd have turned out quite similar (though I doubt Cat ever wanted to swing a sword).

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Robb has an army of thousands, yes. And he's riding into danger regularly, facing other men with armies of thousands who'd be happy to kill him. Realistically, he's in far more danger than Bran and Rickon are. Anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves in a half-assed attempt to blame Catelyn for something that was not in fact wrong.

She doesn't even weep that much in the series; in fact, a point is made of the fact that she does not weep or shed tears after that fit of the black depression early in GoT. She may want to weep, but she doesn't, because she's putting herself forward to try and save her son and her family and she can't look "weak".

Jeebus, I think Ned cries more often than Catelyn does in the series.

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Well, perhaps not weep, but she constantly depressed and her thoughts annoy me as always.

I wont lie, I just don't like Catelyn haha, one thing that's quite shocking is:

When at the Red Wedding Catelyn killed Jinglebell, I felt more sorry for the poor dimwit than I did Catelyn, I understand all your arguments but I just don't like her, that's the last from me. I hate Catelyn and many of you like her that's that.

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Well, perhaps not weep, but she constantly depressed and her thoughts annoy me as always.

I wont lie, I just don't like Catelyn haha, one thing that's quite shocking is:

When at the Red Wedding Catelyn killed Jinglebell, I felt more sorry for the poor dimwit than I did Catelyn, I understand all your arguments but I just don't like her, that's the last from me. I hate Catelyn and many of you like her that's that.

I felt similar during that spoiler. But i can see why you dislike Catelyn, her sorrow makes me dread her P.O.V's, though I can't really feel a reason to hate her. It's just that her depression does get a little annoying after about 5 chapters.

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I agree, it seems like she lost her mind. I don't know what kind of woman she was before Bran's fall, but if she was not crazy before, she definitely became afterwards. I get that she is a mother, and that she would do anything to see her children safe, but she should just think a little bit, before she does something crazy.

I swear, the more I read the books, the more I like Lannisters, because of things like this. At least they use their heads, no matter what kind of people they are.

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She was in a black depression from his fall until the assassin. Re-read that chapter and you'll see she snaps out of it, that she looks back on how she acted with shame, that everything seems clearer now.

She thought plenty. She never did anything without thinking about it. Taking Tyrion? Her last resort -- she attempted to hide from him, so that she didn't have to confront him or leave him with the knowledge that she had been down south in secret. Freeing Jaime? The last resort after all other efforts to save her daughters had failed or been rejected, using a hostage who was otherwise worthless.

She thinks plenty.

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I honestly cannot agree that she was thinking properly when she released Jamie Lannister (one of the greatest, most powerful and feared Knight in the land) I admit that the war was still going against Robb with Jamie imprisoned, however she knows the Lannisters are ruthless so to send the Kingslayer and one muscular woman (no doubting her strength and loyalty) along with a Frey with a slim chance of getting Sansa back was stupid.

I would almost go as far as to say Robb's death was her fault. There is no way Tywin would have killed Robb if Jamie was still in a Riverrun dungeon he would of given the go ahead to kill Robb, as if he did it would almost certainly result in the death of his (in his mind) only song and only possible heir for him to Casterly Rock. (P.S, it's obvious I hold little regard for Catelyn! :) )

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Releasing Jaime was not a mistake. Robb made the mistake in not releasing him earlier in exchange for Sansa and Arya, as they could have made a marriage alliance with the Tyrells or another great house. And this way they would learn that Cersei lost Arya, which would have prevented the Boltons from using the fake Arya to gain power.

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The plan at the Red Wedding was to have both Cat and Edmure as hostages. The Blackfish wouldn't kill Jaime if he knew this would ddoomed his niece and nephew, not to mention a whole bunch of other Riverlords and Northern nobles.

That's a good point, but, I think there's still too much risk for Tywin to go through with that plan if Jamie is still a hostage.

Just trying to think, if it all went wrong for the Freys (say Robb escaped as did the rest) it could of meant the end to Jamie?

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Releasing Jaime was not a mistake. Robb made the mistake in not releasing him earlier in exchange for Sansa and Arya, as they could have made a marriage alliance with the Tyrells or another great house. And this way they would learn that Cersei lost Arya, which would have prevented the Boltons from using the fake Arya to gain power.

Agreed, Sansa and Jamie should of been swapped earlier that was a mistake, but, I still maintain that releasing him as Catelyn did was folly and was a mistake, 5% chance at best that Sansa would of been given back.

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I think arguing that we're sexist just because we simply don't love one female character is pretty awful.

I don't read Arya chapters and think to myself, 'dear God why is the GIRL holding a sword, she should be off learning to stitch and so on.' I don't read Daenerys chapters and think, 'pfft those dragons should belong to a MAN.'

Also my argument was that I hate her for moaning about her kids who she left, not that she should be there. Hell if Ned had lived to moan about his kids I'd have hated him too. People have different opinions, branding us sexist for not liking Catelyn is disgusting, it would be pretty boring if we all had the same views on the vile Catelyn.

Here, here. I loathe that I'm somehow sexist (I'm a woman and consider myself a feminst) for hating the fact that she abandons her children (with no other parent around!) to go on a vengeful and stupid quest and can't seem to stop bugging her oldest son and let him lead. It has nothing to do with her getting involved with politics. As someone else mentioned, if Ned had bitched about leaving his children, I would have thought he was an ass too. Plus, he took 2 of his children with him so he could be closer to them. Plus, at least Cat was at Winterfell to be there for Bran but when Cat leaves, she leaves Maester Luwin and Nan in charge. Two significantly older and vunerable people to care for a 4 year old and 8 (I think) year old.

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I really felt she was to blame for the problems that befell House Stark.

1. She foolishly held Tyrion on trumped up charges with NO real evidence other than the word of Littlefinger who is untrustworthy.

2. She should have made Rob marry the Frey girl right away. We know what problems that caused.

3. Like Walder Frey she put Family above all us, so did Lord Tywin in the sense though when you put family first instead of reason and common sense, you end up losing your family.

4. The Jaime Lannister stuff was foolish! It was the only thing that kept the Northern Kingdoms together! Roose and Frey sensed weakness.

I think the real problems are that Ned and Robert Baratheon were such monsters on the battlefield that everyone stayed in line. Once both of them died everyone felt it was time for revenge against the Starks and Baratheons.

I heard a preacher named Kenneth Hagin once say that a mother's love is selfish love that it creates problems and that most of his counseling issues are between daughter in laws and mother in laws. Catelyn Stark Tully (Latino way) is a perfect example of that. I agree she bungled things and got her husband killed and others as well.

The downfall of so many people is an a jealous and scared mom!

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