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Catelyn is an idiot


LilyFlower

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The Bastard Snow has no greater proximity than the Hostage Greyjoy, but we observe no open hostility toward him. He is allowed to feast with the royal family, etc. Politics was handled in a very "courtly" manner. The issue between Cat and Jon is personal. If the politics of "bastardy" is an issue, it is way in the background. IMO.

Are you really saying that politics in this story have nothing to do with personal issues? They are both very connected, i have said in older posts before in this thread that her loathing towards Jon is a mix of both a fear of what he might do when he grow up (see jons memories of winterfell and his wish to be the lord, and later realizing that it would mean a betrayal to his brothers, he knows is wrong and is decent enough to fight the feeling, but the feeling is still there nonetheless, so her fear makes sense), and a reminder of her husbands betrayl, she did questioned Ned about, but there was nothing she could to remove him from WInterfell, it wasn't in her power, Ned would not even allowd the discussion in the first place. So is both politics and personal loathing, but politics in this worlds would is very different form a modern democracy, its not like she could loose an election and go home, is like Cersei says, or you win or you die, it cant get much more personal than that.

About Theon, raising forstelings as hostages from a rebelled Lord is also a risk and i do remember she also mistrusted Theon, though she didn't loathed him as much.

Again and again i keep seeing the same points beeing trown against Catelyn for mistreating Jon and i wonder if he wasn't a major character and very beloved in this series would you people hate her so much? I don't think so.

Characters like Sandor, a man that butchered a child, Jaime, tried to murder a child, and i don't see so much hatred to them in these forums.

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That is an interesting way of looking at it. I'll have to think about that a while.

Doesn't Cat know that Jon has taken the Black and that leaving the wall for Winterfell is a capital crime?

And if Ned has no "true born" heirs, under Westerosi law, doesn't Brother Ben (fate unknown), come before Jon Snow? Robb is still alive at this point with a fertile (presumably) young wife, how great could the fear of a succession crisis be?

Most people think that Cat is being rash where Jaime is concerned. I am not so sure, I think in her mind she is being pragmatic,making the hard choice (again in her mind) that Robb cannot afford to make.

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That is an interesting way of looking at it. I'll have to think about that a while.

Doesn't Cat know that Jon has taken the Black and that leaving the wall for Winterfell is a capital crime?

And if Ned has no "true born" heirs, under Westerosi law, doesn't Brother Ben (fate unknown), come before Jon Snow? Robb is still alive at this point with a fertile (presumably) young wife, how great could the fear of a succession crisis be?

Most people think that Cat is being rash where Jaime is concerned. I am not so sure, I think in her mind she is being pragmatic,making the hard choice (again in her mind) that Robb cannot afford to make.

He took the black at end of book one, i believe we're discussing here what happened before that, and she couldn't predict the future.

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If you're in a home with a child, particularly your husband's child, and you refuse to speak to that child, refuse to even call the child its name, you cast cold looks and make your displeasure known in subtle ways, what in the name of the seven would you call that. If it was another adult that Cat was doing this to, then I might put it down to being rude and distant, but when she's directing it towards a child, then yes, that fits the label of abuse. Because those kinds of actions can damage a child's self-esteem and self worth. There's a reason why you have to be careful concerning children's physical and emotional development. Things that adults can brush off can be extremely harmful when applied to children.

And then to put the cherry on top of all this, Cat declares that as soon as Ned hits the Kingsroad, she wants Jon out of Winterfell. So you never tried to make the kid feel at home, and now you're insisting that he leave the only home he's ever known? If you consider my balking at that an unfair bias towards Cat, then we can end our conversation right here because clearly we're coming at this from two wildly different perspectives on what is fair and not fair.

"Because those kinds of actions can damage a child's self-esteem and self worth"

I kind of have a feeling that worrying about damaging a child's self-esteem and self worth carries little weight if any in Westeros. They are lucky to survive year to year. This type of thinking simply does not exist in this world and too judge Cat harshly for not thinking and acting towards Jon like a modern western 21st Century mother is obsurd.

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He took the black at end of book one, i believe we're discussing here what happened before that, and she couldn't predict the future.

Well he took the black in the middle of book one, and they are talking about the reasons Catelyn had for freeing Jaime, which happened well after Jon took the black.

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Well he took the black in the middle of book one, and they are talking about the reasons Catelyn had for freeing Jaime, which happened well after Jon took the black.

And i thought we were talking about her loathing towards jon...

Doesn't Cat know that Jon has taken the Black and that leaving the wall for Winterfell is a capital crime?

And if Ned has no "true born" heirs, under Westerosi law, doesn't Brother Ben (fate unknown), come before Jon Snow? Robb is still alive at this point with a fertile (presumably) young wife, how great could the fear of a succession crisis be?

This is what i was answering to. I kinda agree with the Imp about the jaime part.

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Again and again i keep seeing the same points beeing trown against Catelyn for mistreating Jon and i wonder if he wasn't a major character and very beloved in this series would you people hate her so much? I don't think so.

Characters like Sandor, a man that butchered a child, Jaime, tried to murder a child, and i don't see so much hatred to them in these forums.

Because they're not presented (or defended) as heroic types, or "good guys". We know they're darker-shade-of-grey characters, yet Cat is often presented as a person on the "right" side just because she's a Stark, and because it's her children who are in danger. I have sympathy for her character, and I see what GRRM was trying to do, but based on his backpedaling later I think it's safe to say he missed the mark.

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Because they're not presented (or defended) as heroic types, or "good guys". We know they're darker-shade-of-grey characters, yet Cat is often presented as a person on the "right" side just because she's a Stark, and because it's her children who are in danger. I have sympathy for her character, and I see what GRRM was trying to do, but based on his backpedaling later I think it's safe to say he missed the mark.

Who presetend her as the right side?

Its quite the opposite, if there's something frequentely state by me and other people defending her here, is that she is a complex character, with some qualities, and yes, some flaws, not a perfect character, not a heroine.

And im sorry, but i cant see past jaimes attempt of murder and Sandor's actual murder, i do find them interesting characters, but to like them is a bit beyond me.

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@ Doran II

Imp's comment- all of it- was clearly in response to Tyler Snow's 'why Cat freed Jaime Hypothesis,' and was not a comment about why Cat hated Jon. That is what I was trying to clear up for you.

Try to do as i did and put his comment in context with al that he said before about Cat and Jon, i wasn't considering only that scenario, and by my cronology i thought she wouldn't know that by them, but i think im confusing the second book with the first here.

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