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Catelyn is an idiot


LilyFlower

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I really felt she was to blame for the problems that befell House Stark.

1. She foolishly held Tyrion on trumped up charges with NO real evidence other than the word of Littlefinger who is untrustworthy.

This isn't really fair to her. Tyrion is in the habit of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and at the time, if we didn't have Tyrion POVs, many of us would have been certain Tyrion was guilty.

2. She should have made Rob marry the Frey girl right away. We know what problems that caused.

Rob was 14 at the time. And I suspect that Walder Frey insisted. Without foresight of the Red Wedding, Robb marrying the Frey right there and then would only provide minimal advantage to Stark, but would force Walder Frey to burn any bridges he had left with the Lannisters. As Tywin's letter to Lord Manderly showed, a lord who only sent levies he was supposed to send could be forgiven, but a marriage alliance would permanently bind him to the Starks.

3. Like Walder Frey she put Family above all us, so did Lord Tywin in the sense though when you put family first instead of reason and common sense, you end up losing your family.

Pray tell, what exactly is reason and common sense then?

4. The Jaime Lannister stuff was foolish! It was the only thing that kept the Northern Kingdoms together! Roose and Frey sensed weakness.

This I grant you, but Bolton and Frey were already planning treachery when the Greyjoys took Winterfell.

I think the real problems are that Ned and Robert Baratheon were such monsters on the battlefield that everyone stayed in line. Once both of them died everyone felt it was time for revenge against the Starks and Baratheons.

What the hell? Not only is there zero evidence for any monstrosities on the battlefield (and Ned was certainly innocent of any off the field), but the cause of the conflict is rather clearly a power struggle between Lannister and Stark orchestrated by Littlefinger.

I heard a preacher named Kenneth Hagin once say that a mother's love is selfish love that it creates problems and that most of his counseling issues are between daughter in laws and mother in laws. Catelyn Stark Tully (Latino way) is a perfect example of that. I agree she bungled things and got her husband killed and others as well.

Then mothers shouldn't love her children? I agree that she bungled things, but these are small potatoes compared to her services.

The downfall of so many people is an a jealous and scared mom!

They would never have been in a position to fall so far if it had not been for Catelyn. Furthermore, they really only fell in the end because Robb couldn't keep it in his pants. Or, if you want to go deeper, because Robb wouldn't listen to Cat's advice about Theon.

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I know that she felt like a fool after sitting next to Bran's bed, crying and praying. And I agree with her on that.

But I also agree that, yes, she is an idiot. I understand that it's love that made her do it, but I also believe that people in love make a lot of bad choices, and there are quite a few examples of it in a book.

She does not think strait.

I agree with you ServantOnIce. Her kidnaping Tyrion is the only thing Cersei waited for.

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That's a good point, but, I think there's still too much risk for Tywin to go through with that plan if Jamie is still a hostage.

Just trying to think, if it all went wrong for the Freys (say Robb escaped as did the rest) it could of meant the end to Jamie?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Tywin begin with the planning of the Red Wedding long before he knows about Jaime's escape?

It is implied that the letter he is writing when Tyrion first visits him in the Tower of the Hand is the one in which the alliance with House Frey is forged.

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Three important thinks that people complaining that Cat "abandoned" Bran and Rickon should keep in mind:

-Cat was away for less than a year.

-Cat wouldn't make any difference in terms of protection. Cat's strengths aren't defense and military. Instead, she has value as a political advisor and an ambassador.

-If Robb lost the war, Bran and Rickon's futre would be bleak.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Tywin begin with the planning of the Red Wedding long before he knows about Jaime's escape?

This is correct. The text clearly suggests that Tywin planned the Red Wedding before Jaime was free. He also had married Sansa and fought against Robb in battle without any regard for Jaime. As Ran says in his post, it is clear that Tywin was not coerced at all and, as Tyrion once thinks for himself, he had given up hope in recovering Jaime.

In all those "Cat hate threads" that are always reapearing, this is one of the classical falsehoods given as a fact by Cat haters: assuming that Jaime had a decisive value as an hostage. Another typical accusation is blaming Cat for not being omniscient:

1. She foolishly held Tyrion on trumped up charges with NO real evidence other than the word of Littlefinger who is untrustworthy.

2. She should have made Rob marry the Frey girl right away. We know what problems that caused.

You know "Littlefinger is untrustworthy". All she knew is that he was a childhood friend, the Master of coin, and had been recommended by the late Hand of the King. Plus he had the word of her sister saying that the Lannisters were up to something. Plus he had the dagger that proved that whoever was behind the attempt was wealthy and had been in Winterfell.

You know "what problems that caused". All she knew is that it was of vital strategic importance to cross the Twins as fast as possible and ambush Jaime Lannister while he was unawares. Do you really think Cat should had foreseen that perhaps Robb would happen to be injured and in the care of a beautiful girl of his own age the very same night that he received the news of his brothers' murders, and also that he would have foolishly decided to marry her? Yeah, of course. That's the kind of things you need to have a contingency plan for. :rolleyes:

People should stop judging characters on what the reader knows, and instead take into consideration what the character knows.

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That's a good point, but, I think there's still too much risk for Tywin to go through with that plan if Jamie is still a hostage.

Just trying to think, if it all went wrong for the Freys (say Robb escaped as did the rest) it could of meant the end to Jamie?

There was also a risk for Jaime when his father was devastating the Riverlands and his men were often killing nobles instead of capturing them. Tywin was not willing to let the fact that jaime was a prisoner made him vulnerable or prevent him from doing anything and was ready to risk his son for that.

I really felt she was to blame for the problems that befell House Stark.

1. She foolishly held Tyrion on trumped up charges with NO real evidence other than the word of Littlefinger who is untrustworthy.

2. She should have made Rob marry the Frey girl right away. We know what problems that caused.

3. Like Walder Frey she put Family above all us, so did Lord Tywin in the sense though when you put family first instead of reason and common sense, you end up losing your family.

4. The Jaime Lannister stuff was foolish! It was the only thing that kept the Northern Kingdoms together! Roose and Frey sensed weakness.

I think the real problems are that Ned and Robert Baratheon were such monsters on the battlefield that everyone stayed in line. Once both of them died everyone felt it was time for revenge against the Starks and Baratheons.

I heard a preacher named Kenneth Hagin once say that a mother's love is selfish love that it creates problems and that most of his counseling issues are between daughter in laws and mother in laws. Catelyn Stark Tully (Latino way) is a perfect example of that. I agree she bungled things and got her husband killed and others as well.

The downfall of so many people is an a jealous and scared mom!

She coudn't make Robb do anything he didn't want at this point. Legally he was still a minor, but in practice he was the leader of the North and his mother making him marry at a time he didn't want to would've been terrible for his authority.

Besides, there was no rush. It was better to keep Robb's options open (what if the Martells have offered Robb's support in exchange for him marrying Arianne, or another stronger House than the Freys), the Freys were already doing their part of the deal. How could she have predicted that Robb would do something so mindbogglingly stupid and against the mentality of the Westeros nobility as to marry a girl who gave him no army and no political advantage during a war?

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Catelyn Stark Tully (Latino way)

Another wrong thing in a post filled with inaccuracies. That would be the surname of the Stark children, not of Catelyn herself.

The downfall of so many people is an a jealous and scared mom!
"It is one of the mysteries of fate that all nations owe their fall and ignominy to a woman." ~Ignacio Ramírez, while blaming the downfall of Mexico on a female slave.

Somehow, I doubt he'll get the implication of that but perhaps I have too little faith.

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I thought of replying but the idea of talking to posters who think its acceptable for a woman to show simpering resentment at her husband's child for 15 years, from the time he was a baby, is really not worth the bother.

Yes, she has no place complaining about being reminded of her husband's adultery every day. What an insolent bitch. She should be grateful it isn't worse.

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I think its safe to say that if anybody on this thread lost their spouse, father, their three sons, and daughters were taken away from you, in such a short period of time, you would be clouded with grief and depression as well. Hell If I were in her postion I would have killed myself.

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If she killed herself it would have been much more honorable!

Releasing Jaime was not only stupid, but selfish! She only thought of herself and her kids... as it was said before, she ignored all the other lord's kids that died, as if they were only being dutiful.

Yes, she is a desperate mother. But she's not allowed to do whatever because of that. If we're gonna go through that road, than we must say the same for Cersei, after all all the bad things she did was to protect her kids, right?

I have sympathy for her losses and grief... but none for her!

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If she killed herself it would have been much more honorable!

Releasing Jaime was not only stupid, but selfish! She only thought of herself and her kids... as it was said before, she ignored all the other lord's kids that died, as if they were only being dutiful.

Yes, she is a desperate mother. But she's not allowed to do whatever because of that. If we're gonna go through that road, than we must say the same for Cersei, after all all the bad things she did was to protect her kids, right?

I have sympathy for her losses and grief... but none for her!

Because releasing Jaime is a crime on an order with murder, incest, deicide, fraticide, regicide, and eating swans.

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You know what it really sickens me to read that some people were HOPING she would get killed off and was actually satisfied when she was brutally murdered, its makes me ashamed that people on this site would say that a defenseless woman who loved her family dearly, deserved to be murdered NOBODY deserves to be murdered especcially when she has to watch her oldest son die in front of her eyes before she is killed

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You know what it really sickens me to read that someone people were HOPING she would get killed off...

Its amazing how much hate gets directed towards the female characters (all of them, really, although Catelyn is one of the most perplexing). I was watching an interview with the girl who plays Sansa, and she was talking about how she felt hurt by how over the top the hate is and how people want to kill her character.

It all gets pretty disturbing, actually.

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Talking to these Catelyn lovers is like talking to a brick wall.

It's like politics, you can never argue with the other side without getting frustrated, but that's what makes it interesting.

I have no hate for the female characters, just Catelyn, I understand all her grief, doesn't mean I can't still hate her. I don't feel any hatred towards Sansa, she is a poor young, dreamer of a girl who is alone and surrounded by enemies who repulse her.

Arya for instance is well aware of what's happened to the Starks, she's seen her father get beheaded and all but it makes her stronger, she moves on fast and tries to improve her situation instead of moaping about, causing problems to her own side.

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1. When your family is being destroyed/murdered, I doubt you will be in the right-mind. Catelyn is just trying to rebuild her family, no matter how small the chance. If I were in her situation (and didn't kill myself) I would have done the same. REMEMBER her two sons were just murdered, Arya is lost, Sansa is in Lannister hands, and her husband is dead. ALL IN LESS THAN A YEAR.

2. Catelyn leaving with Robb was the best decision she could have made at the time. Bran and Rickon were in no immediate danger, and would have been alive (in her eyes) if Robb listened to Catelyn, Robb on the otherhand, is going into the "Game of Throne" (haha), a world full of danger where one mistake is your downfall. She is much better off advising her son in war and politics than babying her children (who are surrounded by maesters and soldiers). Only she saw the Ironmen threat when Robb was sending Theon away, but by that time she already left.

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Arya lost all of them, too, in the same period of time. She can't even see, or talk to any of her alive family, and she wouldn't do things in a way that Catelyn did.

As I said before, Arya "only" became a multiple murderer who gradually started killing without any remorse. Is that supposed to be a positive example?

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