Could Lightbringer be the Night's Watch?

[Consigliere]

<snip>

I think that you do have a point regarding obsidian, however obsidian on it's own is useless. Perhaps the NW armed with obsidian and/or dragonsteel constitutes LB.

[Rickeen Baratheon]

I think that you do have a point regarding obsidian, however obsidian on it's own is useless. Perhaps the NW armed with obsidian and/or dragonsteel constitutes LB.

Aye. Hopefully Stannis' load from DS arrive soon! But, the Others, who were pretty much destroying everything in their path are suddenly attacked with one of their weaknesses, obsidian. Sounds like that one guy slaying Others one by one, would become a legend?

There is also Jon's dream, don't have the exact quote, but he's holding a blade of fire fighting them isn't he?

[Consigliere]

Aye. Hopefully Stannis' load from DS arrive soon! But, the Others, who were pretty much destroying everything in their path are suddenly attacked with one of their weaknesses, obsidian. Sounds like that one guy slaying Others one by one, would become a legend?

There is also Jon's dream, don't have the exact quote, but he's holding a blade of fire fighting them isn't he?

Still don't buy one guy defeating The Others.

If there's one thing I learned from ASoIaF is that prophetic dreams (if that was one) should not be taken literally.

[Lord Grumkin]

The story says that the LB took three times to be forged. For the first and second time the steel "shattered". If we assume that the LB is in fact the NW, the story says that the creation of the Night's Watch by AA took three attempts. If we look at the crisis the NW is currently in, we can think of it as shattering at the attempts of the lord commader (Snow and Mormont) to prepare it for the battle with the Others.

Threrefore, I think there will be the third attempt (or two more, if we don't include Mormont) to "forge" the NW into a weapon it was meant to be. And because I don't believe Jon is really dead, I think that he will be the AA in the end.

Concernig Nissa Nissa, it may be a real woman (Val?) who would have to die (not necessarily directly by Jon's hand and intention, it can be some kind of a impossible choice) in order to forge LB again, or it can be a metaphor for Jon's desire to become Stark, lord of Winterfell or something else entirely. Jon may be revived, then attempt to fight Others as king in the north (if the Great Northern Conspiracy is true) and for the third time he realizes that he must become lord commander again.

Lastly, the prophecy says that for the third time, the lightbringer will be drawn from a fire. I think thay we may see some Night's Wath castles burn:)

[BerserkZR]

I like this theory :bowdown:

[Mithras]

AA needed three attempts to forge LB. Jon possibly turning his back on the NW three times only to return and fulfill his oath and in the process reminding the NW of it's true purpose could "forge" the NW into LB.

In the first one, Ghost scared Jon's horse reveal his position. Jon was annoyed with it. At the second one, it is heavily implied that Ghost will again save Jon's skin.

Here's my main quibble about any one sword being Lightbringer:

Is Azor Ahai wielding this sword because it's Lightbringer, or is it Lightbringer because Azor Ahai is wielding it?

Or to put it in modern terms, look at Air Force One. It's Air Force One because the president is on it; the president isn't on it because it's Air Force One. As in, the object is influenced by the identity of the person using it, not the other way around.

In which case, whatever sword Azor Ahai happens to be using when he's doing whatever it is Azor Ahai is supposed to do could, in theory, be Lightbringer. Whether it's Dawn, Oathkeeper, Longclaw or a wooden play sword. Lightbringer in that context would be recognized in hindsight and it wouldn't necessarily be possible to accurately predict its identity beforehand.

Beric used his blood on his sword and the sword took fire. But the Hound's blade cut through that sword, probably because Beric was not person in the prophecy. If we take this as a frame for Lightbringer, the true person in the prophecy should be able to enchant any weapon to slay the Others without failing. We already know that normal steel shatters against the others. Only a frozen fire (obsidian) can harm them. In that case, one can argue that that person should be AA and the enchanted weapon is LB. But I dont think so. I think the weapon is just a weapon and the person who enchants it is the Lightbringer. Jon dreamed of fighting against the wights alone with his sword burning red in his hand. I think Jon being a frozen fire (a dragon in hiding, yet to hatch) is also another evidence for Jon being the Lightbringer.

[Mithras]

The NW was founded while the First Men were still speaking the Old Tongue. It is possible that Nightfort and the Black Gate were even founded before the Wall. The Black Gate talked the Common Tongue and worked with the NW vow's Common Tongue version. Normally a magical vow should work in the original language. Do you think the NW installed a language package to the Black Gate after the Andal invasion?

[Jogarr the Troll]

Is the story of AA and Lightbringer a prophecy? I was under the impression that the prophecy is that AA will be reborn, not that AA existed, which is a historical legend. So, I'm hesitant to subscribe to the OP, since it seems a lot more far fetched that the original story would be metaphorical in the same way the prophecies are if it's a legend, not a prophecy.

Also, the NW has its own legends that claim that the wall and NW were created by Bran the Builder. Unless they are one and the same, which I also doubt, it would be pretty damn convenient for everyone to remember Bran the Builder's involvement and forget AA had anything to do with it, or that BtB was AA.

Not saying the theory is bunk, but I think we're leaning a little too heavily on the assumption that skewed history/legends = prophecies here, at least too much for me to decide it's more likely than some of the other theories

[Eurolicious]

In Melisandre 1 of aDwD it seems pretty clear that JS is AA (I haven't read a lot of the posts and I am new to this, so this might not be the place for this topic). She asks the fires to show her AA (whom she believes to be SB) but the fires show her JS.

"I pray for glimpse of AA and R shows me only Snow"

[Eurolicious]

I think that J+L=JS is definitely possible(and it would be too cool) except that J seems to have no Targ features at all.

[The guy from the Vale]

I think that J+L=JS is definitely possible(and it would be too cool) except that J seems to have no Targ features at all.

Who would be the first J there? :P

Anyway, Jon's sister Rhaenys had no Targ features, but her mother's Dornish coloring. Baelor Breakspear also didn't look like the average Targ. Jon just looks like his mother. Or do you think Sansa, Robb and Bran are not Starks because they look like their mother?

[Tamlin Stark]

First post, deep breath.. okay.

I think that one of the reasons that it was never recorded that Old Gods Night Watch's members was anything special, was that they didn't know the difference, since in the time period, the only members were followers of the Old Gods. So they might never have know the importantness of being a follower of the Old Gods.

The vow said "I am the watcher on the walls", that implies that time there were not one big Wall, that needed watching, but many small ones.

Last thing, Appel Martini oh why did you change that awesome line. It was just so epic!

Back to lurker mode

[KingWobblyWolf]

Just going to throw this out there, something no one seems to have thought of, probably because no one wants it to happen.

What if AA isn't Jon, but is Sam Tarly? His rebirth could be the loss of his innocence at sea with Gilly. (Salt from the sea, fire relating to passion) also, he is in the nights watch, but he's currently away. The next lord commander to take after Jon may fail the nights watch too, then by the time Sam gets back something could happen that makes him lord commander number 1000, also giving the nights watch (lightbringer) the three times to be forged.

Apart from anything else, who is the only character to have killed an Other at this point in the series. It seems like the crazy kind of plot twist GRRM would give us, considering he goes for unconventional plot lines. I don't think it's true, but it's another thought.

Oh yeah, that would mean Jon staying dead, as most characters do. Also him not being one of the dragons heads.

[Shehryar.Qazi]

well would Melisandre see a bear in her fires If Mormont was Lord Commander?

And what about Nissa Nissa and the forging of Light bringer

[sj4iy]

Apple Martini: The NW as Lightbringer seems to be a compelling idea when you look at the vow.

But there seem be various detractors to the theory and I'd be interested how you get around them:

1) The NW isn't what it was anymore, it degraded to a rather useless bunch of criminals and low life, just when AA (or the LC) would need it at the utmost strength to fight the supernatural threat of the Others. So you could probably say that if the NW is Lightbringer, it's about time to sharpen that sword. And there are no indications whatsoever that's gonna happen.

2) The NW just killed their second LC in a row. This point is certainly connected to the first one, since they seem to think that they're not bound to obey their LC whenever they think he doesn't act the way they want him too. So how could the LC (AA) wield this weapon when it's shown to be rather unwilling?

3) The NW doesn't seem to care too much about the threat of the Others, they seem more concerned with the Wildlings and with the politics of the Realm (and that they're not party to it whichh is ridiculous when they're drawn into it whether they will it or not). They all but forgot the true meaning of their vow. There's this scene in ADWD where Jon recites the vow and argues against the very narrow interpretation of the NW raison d'etre against Bowen Marsh.

4) The NW don't know how to fight the Others. This really connects again to the third point. They are ignorant and they also don't learn.

So, taken all that into account I think - if the NW is lightbringer, then Westeros is doomed and the Others can already prepare for their victory.

I agree with all of this.

[dbrandow]

One way of interpreting it could be as follows:

Azor Ahai waged a war for 30 days against the Others leading an army of the 'people of the water' (Greyjoys?), but lost.

He then waged a war for 50 days against the Others leading an army of the 'people of the lion' (Lannisters), but lost again.

Finally, he realized he had to sacrifice all he held dear to found and lead the Night's Watch, an army whose soldiers were pulled from every house in the land. He realized that this army couldn't win unless it had no connections to anyone or anything, not to material possessions, not to titles, not even to family, which included his own beloved wife. After waging war for 100 days against the Others at the head of the Night's Watch, he was finally successful.

[The Bedding]

It's Dawn. Dawn brings light.

[sabrecmc]

Interesting theory...though I have to agree that if the NW is Lightbringer, then the Realm is doomed. Sorry. Besides, it would seem anti-climatic if Dany has dragons and AAR ends up with...well, the exact same people crappy at warfare we've seen for 5 books. I'm not convinced Lightbringer is a literal sword, but the NW would be something of a letdown for me, I must admit.

[sj4iy]

Just thought I'd state again, for the record, that I think Lightbringer is a sword.

[reallycuckoo]

It also occurred to me that AA's sacrifice of Nissa Nissa might somehow tie into the Night's Watch promise to not take wives. We understand that promise to simply be putting duty before familial loyalty, but what if there's more to it? If AA did sacrifice Nissa Nissa to "forge" Lightbringer, and the Night's Watch is itself Lightbringer, then the rule against taking wives literally goes back to the first days of the Watch and has a deep symbolic meaning beyond just utility.

I`d like to mention that it is my first post.

That paragraph made me think about the symbolic meaning of the 3 tries of tampting the sword - in the water, lion`s and NN`s hearts. I assume, that forging in smth=sacrificing.

Let`s take a look on the NW oath again:

"Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come."

I had some parts colored. I did that, because it felt like sentances in those parts are simmiliar. Let`s dig into it`s meaning.

First and last parts (both colored blue) are an oath itself.

In the third part (green one), man declares himself as smbd/smth – LB according to the theory.

In the second part (red one), man remembers all taboos. Which is leaving your post, having a family and seeking glory. And the reminder about leaving your post.

Back to the sword.

First forging is in water. Water is an element of change. Sacrificing it means that you deny all possible changes. It shall not end until my death… I shall live and die at my post

The lion was second. It`s the royalty amongst animals and the bravest of them. You deny becoming a king and possible outcomes of bravery. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory.

NN was mentioned before – as I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. part.

Sorry if the idea similiar to mine, has been mentioned before in discussion or my post turned out to be very clumsy.

Any thoughts?