283 replies to this topic

[Apple Martini]

Kissdbyfire, on 07 November 2011 - 08:13 PM, said:

I've been thinking about this, and I've remembered maester Aemon questioning Stannis' sword being Lightbringer because there is no heat. This made me think about his knowledge of this prophecy coming from, among other things, the Citadel. And I think this might just be one of the most important things we will learn from Samwell's POVs in the next books.

Yes, I remember that, too, that that's how Aemon knew Stannis' sword was a fraud. I also think it's important/noteworthy that fire is the primary way of destroying wights.

If you think about it, it's fairly simple to deduce how and why someone like Melisandre would be on the lookout for a real sword. As I mentioned above, the Night's Watch vow contains a metaphor, comparing it to a sword, and also includes imagery about bringing light to darkness and fire (i.e. warmth) against the cold. If you think about a red sword symbolically, as a weapon that's seen combat, and apply the metaphor, the Night's Watch could fit as the "red sword," and the symbolism and arcaneness of the vows (do non-Night's Watch people even know them?) could explain why no one had "solved" it before. The idea of Lightbringer as a sword is really just a literal manifestation of how the Night's Watch describes itself — symbolically red from combat, a sword, the light that brings the dawn and a force of warmth against the cold. If you told someone to make a weapon that "summed up" the Night's Watch, it'd be Lightbringer in the literal way that many readers think of it.

[ARYa_Nym]

I think that there is still a possibility that the NW can get worse. Their current situation doesn't look too good. They killed their LC and they're surrounded by wildlings.

I expect a full Others domination if it turns out that the fate of Westeros lies in the hands of the NW. If Dany's dream was of her fighting the Others it seems like they will get as far as the Trident. What happened North of it?

[Apple Martini]

ARYa_Nym, on 07 November 2011 - 09:12 PM, said:

I expect a full Others domination if it turns out that the fate of Westeros lies in the hands of the NW. If Dany's dream was of her fighting the Others it seems like they will get as far as the Trident. What happened North of it?

Dany's dreams can be fluid. She saw Rhaego's future that never actually happened, as well as Rhaegar saying that Aegon was tPtwP when in all likelihood that isn't the case. She may end up fighting the Others, if she ever gets her dumb ass over there, but I don't think her visions are reliable enough to pin anything down to actual geography.

Edited by Apple Martini, 08 November 2011 - 02:39 AM.

[ARYa_Nym]

Rhaegar most likely did say that though he was just wrong again. That vision lets her and the readers know that Rhaegar wanted another child. She will realize the significance later when she meets Jon.

Stannis was in the Slayer of Lies sequence of the Undying. The lie she must slay is probably that he is AA. Perhaps she is the one who must slay the lie because she is AA.

Dany didn't realize that it was wights that she was fighting. She thought that it was Usurpers but they were armored in Ice. I think it parallels very well with Jon's dream where he saw himself in black ice, (obsidian most likely) with a sword that burned red.

[Apple Martini]

ARYa_Nym, on 08 November 2011 - 02:57 AM, said:

Rhaegar most likely did say that though he was just wrong again. That vision lets her and the readers know that Rhaegar wanted another child. She will realize the significance later when she meets Jon.

Stannis was in the Slayer of Lies sequence of the Undying. The lie she must slay is probably that he is AA. Perhaps she is the one who must slay the lie because she is AA.

Dany didn't realize that it was wights that she was fighting. She thought that it was Usurpers but they were armored in Ice. I think it parallels very well with Jon's dream where he saw himself in black ice, (obsidian most likely) with a sword that burned red.

Does any of this have any bearing on my theory, exactly?

[kissdbyfire]

ARYa_Nym, on 08 November 2011 - 02:57 AM, said:

Rhaegar most likely did say that though he was just wrong again. That vision lets her and the readers know that Rhaegar wanted another child. She will realize the significance later when she meets Jon.

Stannis was in the Slayer of Lies sequence of the Undying. The lie she must slay is probably that he is AA. Perhaps she is the one who must slay the lie because she is AA.

Dany didn't realize that it was wights that she was fighting. She thought that it was Usurpers but they were armored in Ice. I think it parallels very well with Jon's dream where he saw himself in black ice, (obsidian most likely) with a sword that burned red.

Oh, I look at it differently. For instance, she can only realise the significance when she meets Jon if a: he is indeed Rhaegar and Lyanna's son (or there is no significance); and b: if we (or at least she) know who he is.

As to the 'slaying of lies', I think she will prove that Stannis is not AA, not that she is.

[ARYa_Nym]

Apple Martini, on 08 November 2011 - 03:33 AM, said:

Does any of this have any bearing on my theory, exactly?

How do you tie Dany into your theory? It seems that the NW won't be able to contain them in the North as she saw herself fighting them in the south. I doubt she will ever become LC. In the first Long Night AA drove them back so Bran the Builder could build the wall. This might be Dany's role.

No one has fulfilled the AA prophecy better than her so far.

RN, they have no leader. Jon was a good possible mediator between the NW, wildlings, and the North but he might be out of the picture for a while.

Kissdbyfire, on 08 November 2011 - 03:41 AM, said:

As to the 'slaying of lies', I think she will prove that Stannis is not AA, not that she is.

Right but I'm saying perhaps the task was placed upon her because she is AA.

Kissdbyfire, on 08 November 2011 - 03:41 AM, said:

Oh, I look at it differently. For instance, she can only realise the significance when she meets Jon if a: he is indeed Rhaegar and Lyanna's son (or there is no significance); and b: if we (or at least she) know who he is.

After the whole mummer's dragon ordeal I think she will be skeptical of more hidden Targaryens. However, when she does find out about Jon's parentage she can look back at his words, "there must be one more" and make the connection.

Edited by ARYa_Nym, 08 November 2011 - 03:53 AM.

[Ghost Rider]

Apple Martini, on 07 November 2011 - 06:33 AM, said:

To kind of wrap everything up in one package, I'll just say that the series isn't over yet and it's possible that the Night's Watch might surprise you. Kind of a pat answer, I know, but I don't think it's fair to make a judgment call when the most critical part of the story is still to come. There's no way to predict what the implications will be after the, uh, incident in ADWD, and depending on the aftermath of that, the Night's Watch might look very different.

I was kind of afraid you might say that. So what you basically need for your theory to work is the fundamental change of the NW. Imho nothing in the text so far suggests that this kind of change is to be expected. I mean, they murdered Jon to prevent this kind of change. And Jon... wanted to strengthen the NW, yes, but he mostly tried to include other forces.

There is however something in the text that would support the likely failure of the NW, quoted upthread by Kissdbyfire:

Kissdbyfire, on 07 November 2011 - 10:30 AM, said:

“Bran found himself remembering the tales Old Nan had told him when he was a babe. Beyond the Wall the monsters live, the giants and the ghouls, the stalking shadows and the dead that walk, she would say, tucking him in beneath his scratchy woollen blanket, but they cannot pass so long as the Wall stands strong and the men of the Night’s Watch are true.”

Since stabbing your LC(s) probably doesn’t qualify as ‘being true’, could this have an impact on how the Others become able to come south of the Wall?

That quote seems to foreshadow the eventual failure of the NW imho. Of course your more optimistic read of the situation post assassination attempt might win out, but for a full-out war to start, we would need the Others to be able to cross the Wall somehow.

Otherwise this war would still be locally confined. In the South there would still be petty dynastic squabbles going on while in the North the NW heroically defeats the antihuman forces of the Others, thus fulfilling their destiny. After the war, since the NW wins no glory and so on, nobody in the South will much care about what had been going on there and there will in fact laugh about the ridiculous old wives' tales they hear from the North - grumpkins and snarls indeed.

But really, the situation at the moment is this: The NW don't know anymore about the threat of the Others then most everybody else in the seven kingdoms. The Wildlings likely know more about fighting the Others then the NW. And they're not interested in learning more either with the exception of their (former) LC Jon Snow who they just murdered. Where do you see the sparks to light the fire? I'd sooner think they're about to be wiped out.

Apple Martini, on 07 November 2011 - 06:33 AM, said:

It's also possible that Lightbringer is symbolic in a normative sense, and that the Night's Watch must remember its purpose before it can truly become Lightbringer. In that case, it'd be about the Watch fulfilling its potential. Being Lightbringer isn't just about what something is, it's also about what it does.

Hmm, that sounds very fine and good, but I really don't see how that could possibly happen. We have to work with the men we have, there won't be any others. And Jon repeatedly remarks how all the good men of the NW are gone and he cannot rely on any of them. I totally agree with him there. From what we've seen (ok, via his POV, but I still think it's rather reliable), they're a bunch of narrow-minded idiots who just want to keep everything the way it always has been which is of course a very human desire, but won't be of much use when facing a new threat.

So there is a very real danger that "Lightbringer" in this normative sense might never reach its full potential.

On a somewhat different note: if you think it possible that a body of men could be Lightbringer, how about a single man who swore the oath and is still true, say Samwell Tarly? I really don't see much difference for symbolic value there. And I guess it will make a difference whether the NW men swore their oath in front of a heart tree or in a sept, because of the Old Gods magic in the Wall. We'we already seen that at work when Sam crossed the Wall throught that Gate and I expect it to come into play again.

[ARYa_Nym]

Kissdbyfire, on 07 November 2011 - 01:19 PM, said:

I have a question... Is there any mention to what happened to the original Lightbringer? I've been looking for info on this but I can't find much. I've found sources placing Azor Ahai 8,000 and 5,000 years before Aegon's Landing; either way, it was thousands of years before AL. Still, isn't it possible that the actual sword is still around?
And another question: I have found this (http://awoiaf.wester...zor_Ahai#note-0

"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

Jon still has to go to Winterfell's crypts. Maybe Bran the Builder hid it down there somewhere since we don't know why he has to go down there. & I wonder if he will be exiled from the NW. How else would he be allowed to leave? The vows do say that they end when you die but I'm not sure if it will be that easy. Maybe the brothers won't want to have anything to do with him. They did try to kill him after all.

Or maybe Lightbringer already is around in plain sight it just needs to be activated.

Edited by ARYa_Nym, 08 November 2011 - 04:36 AM.

[kissdbyfire]

Ghost Rider, on 08 November 2011 - 04:29 AM, said:

I was kind of afraid you might say that. [img]file:///C:/Users/Laura/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.gif[/img]So what you basically need for your theory to work is the fundamental change of the NW. Imho nothing in the text so far suggests that this kind of change is to be expected. I mean, they murdered Jon to prevent this kind of change. And Jon... wanted to strengthen the NW, yes, but he mostly tried to include other forces.

Hmm... Again, I look at a bit differently. I think events in ADwD do precisely that, they put those changes in motion, and Jon being stabbed is the straw the broke the camel’s back in that regard. I don’t think that Jon trying to include other forces is against the NW’s purpose at all. The wildlings are human beings who live on the 'wrong side' of the Wall. If the NW can take recruits from dungeons (rapists, murderers, etc), why shouldn’t they recruit the wildlings as well? Jon is trying to make the NW adapt to survive. It’s clear the south is not going to stir and join the fight against the Others yet; the wildlings have the numbers and (some) knowledge the NW lacks, as you mention below. I don’t think all the NW men at Castle Black are dissidents; I assume (I don’t really remember) that there are still a few men loyal to Jon at Castle Black, plus all the wildlings. Just imagine what will happen to Bowen Marsh and the other conspirators in the next minutes after Jon has fallen.

Ghost Rider, on 08 November 2011 - 04:29 AM, said:

There is however something in the text that would support the likely failure of the NW, quoted upthread by Kissdbyfire:

That quote seems to foreshadow the eventual failure of the NW imho. Of course your more optimistic read of the situation post assassination attempt might win out, but for a full-out war to start, we would need the Others to be able to cross the Wall somehow.

Otherwise this war would still be locally confined. In the South there would still be petty dynastic squabbles going on while in the North the NW heroically defeats the antihuman forces of the Others, thus fulfilling their destiny. After the war, since the NW wins no glory and so on, nobody in the South will much care about what had been going on there and there will in fact laugh about the ridiculous old wives' tales they hear from the North - grumpkins and snarls indeed.

But really, the situation at the moment is this: The NW don't know anymore about the threat of the Others then most everybody else in the seven kingdoms. The Wildlings likely know more about fighting the Others then the NW. And they're not interested in learning more either with the exception of their (former) LC Jon Snow who they just murdered. Where do you see the sparks to light the fire? I'd sooner think they're about to be wiped out.

As I said above, I don’t see it as foreshadowing the failure of the NW, but rather its change. I agree that the Others will pass; I don’t see the south joining in the fight unless the Others are almost literally ‘biting them in the arse’. And I think the NW being destabilised and going through changes added to that quote upthread where Bran remembers what Old Nan said is what will allow the Others to come south of the Wall.

Ghost Rider, on 08 November 2011 - 04:29 AM, said:

Hmm, that sounds very fine and good, but I really don't see how that could possibly happen. We have to work with the men we have, there won't be any others. And Jon repeatedly remarks how all the good men of the NW are gone and he cannot rely on any of them. I totally agree with him there. From what we've seen (ok, via his POV, but I still think it's rather reliable), they're a bunch of narrow-minded idiots who just want to keep everything the way it always has been which is of course a very human desire, but won't be of much use when facing a new threat.

So there is a very real danger that "Lightbringer" in this normative sense might never reach its full potential.

On a somewhat different note: if you think it possible that a body of men could be Lightbringer, how about a single man who swore the oath and is still true, say Samwell Tarly? I really don't see much difference for symbolic value there. And I guess it will make a difference whether the NW men swore their oath in front of a heart tree or in a sept, because of the Old Gods magic in the Wall. We'we already seen that at work when Sam crossed the Wall throught that Gate and I expect it to come into play again.

I don’t think Samwell will leave the Citadel anytime soon. I think the purpose of having him there goes beyond the NW needing a maester. We know Samwell is a bookworm, I see him digging up all sorts of interesting and very useful information on the Others at the Citadel. Also, he has linked up with the Sphinx, Marwyn, and even ‘Jaqen’. I wonder what will come of that.

[ARYa_Nym]

I think Jon being killed prevented positive changes. Jon was the one who got the wildlings to cooperate with the NW. Mance is also crucial but Jon luckily found allies within the wildlings that remained at the wall. Without either of them present who is going to keep the NW and the wildlings from fighting each other?

Wildlings are hated by the NW and the entire realm. Most people don't want to help them or harbor them.

The problem is that wildlings are potential wights. You leave them to be live bait for the Others that just makes the army that is coming to fight you stronger.


With Jeor and Jon it seems that when things got a little shaky the LC gets killed. How are they going to act when the Others come out in full force? Where is the stability?

[kissdbyfire]

ARYa_Nym, on 08 November 2011 - 06:06 AM, said:

I think Jon being killed prevented positive changes. Jon was the one who got the wildlings to cooperate with the NW. Mance is also crucial but Jon luckily found allies within the wildlings that remained at the wall. Without either of them present who is going to keep the NW and the wildlings from fighting each other?

I'm late and can't elaborate much at the mo, but I'll put a few things out there...
Well, I don't think Jon is dead. I think it's all part of the transition/change.

ARYa_Nym, on 08 November 2011 - 06:06 AM, said:

Wildlings are hated by the NW and the entire realm. Most people don't want to help them or harbor them.

Yes. But I think ultimately the whole point of everything is tolerance, acceptance, etc.

ARYa_Nym, on 08 November 2011 - 06:06 AM, said:

The problem is that wildlings are potential wights. You leave them to be live bait for the Others that just makes the army that is coming to fight you stronger.

Just so. And that is the point, so to speak. Get rid of your prejudices. Adapt to survive.

ARYa_Nym, on 08 November 2011 - 06:06 AM, said:

With Jeor and Jon it seems that when things got a little shaky the LC gets killed. How are they going to act when the Others come out in full force? Where is the stability?

There isn't stability. Again, I think in order for the NW to change, it has to be through an event that will shock (destabilise) and force everyone to reevaluate their previous beliefs.

[moey reed]

ARYa_Nym, on 08 November 2011 - 06:06 AM, said:

I think Jon being killed prevented positive changes. Jon was the one who got the wildlings to cooperate with the NW. Mance is also crucial but Jon luckily found allies within the wildlings that remained at the wall. Without either of them present who is going to keep the NW and the wildlings from fighting each other?

Wildlings are hated by the NW and the entire realm. Most people don't want to help them or harbor them.

The problem is that wildlings are potential wights. You leave them to be live bait for the Others that just makes the army that is coming to fight you stronger.


With Jeor and Jon it seems that when things got a little shaky the LC gets killed. How are they going to act when the Others come out in full force? Where is the stability?

yes, jon did the only reasonable thing there was to do. he didn't only save the wildlings from dying horrible deaths but also did he win them to their cause (or most of them). if he had just left them to die beyond the wall they would have eventually become wights and a bigger threat. by winning them over and manning the remaining castles he actually strengthened the NW. and like he said when someone joins the NW his past is forgotten. why can rapists and murders join the NW and help defending the realms of men but not wildlings? bowen marsh and consorts failed in seeing and understanding what jon did for them. the NW was pretty much screwed before that, they had killed the old bear, who was a hell of a LC and they were just not enough in numbers to keep their oath of protecting the realms in the hard times they are about to face. instead of being happy that they have help now and actually have a chance to fight them, they go on and kill the only person who was holding everything together. and if jon is really dead and not coming back, well then i can just quote lost and say "god help us all" (or "gods" in this case)

[ARYa_Nym]

Kissdbyfire, on 08 November 2011 - 06:33 AM, said:

I'm late and can't elaborate much at the mo, but I'll put a few things out there...
Well, I don't think Jon is dead. I think it's all part of the transition/change.


Yes. But I think ultimately the whole point of everything is tolerance, acceptance, etc.



Just so. And that is the point, so to speak. Get rid of your prejudices. Adapt to survive.


There isn't stability. Again, I think in order for the NW to change, it has to be through an event that will shock (destabilise) and force everyone to reevaluate their previous beliefs.

Jon isn't dead for good but it's possible that he will dead for a while. Mel saw him living as Ghost then as a man. & Bran saw Jon lying in a cold bed dead/dying right before he looked into the heart of winter.

Even if Jon was alive the NW expected him to be dead. They didn't want him to be their leader anymore. He was making too many changes that they didn't like. If he comes back I don't see why they would want him and I imagine he would be jaded like Tyrion was when no one appreciated what he did at Blackwater.

I don't see the NW gaining tolerance and acceptance until they are forced to when the Others breach the wall. By that time everyone is just trying to survive.  This applies to the entire realm though. The NW isn't prepared. The North isn't prepared. The rest of Westeros isn't prepared. It will be like a domino effect. I think the Others will make their way south because the realm isn't ready.

The NW's issue is that they don't do well with leadership as of late. I can see the Others/wights breaking their forces because of it.

Edited by ARYa_Nym, 08 November 2011 - 06:57 AM.

[kissdbyfire]

ARYa_Nym, on 08 November 2011 - 06:46 AM, said:

Jon isn't dead for good but it's possible that he will dead for a while. Mel saw him living as Ghost then as a man. & Bran saw Jon lying in a cold bed dead/dying right before he looked into the heart of winter.

Even if Jon was alive the NW expected him to be dead. They didn't want him to be their leader anymore. He was making too many changes that they didn't like. If he comes back I don't see why they would want him and I imagine he would be jaded like Tyrion was when no one appreciated what he did at Blackwater.

I don't see the NW gaining tolerance and acceptance until they are forced to when the Others breach the wall. By that time everyone is just trying to survive.  This applies to the entire realm though. The NW isn't prepared. The North isn't prepared. The rest of Westeros isn't prepared. It will be like a domino effect. I think the Others will make their way south because the realm isn't ready.

The NW's issue is that they don't do well with leadership as of late. I can see the Others/wights breaking their forces because of it.

Yes, it is likely the ones involved in the stabbing won't want him as a leader if he doesn’t die or dies and comes back. After all, they did stab him, and I can see no reason for them to have changed their minds yet- even with Bowen Marsh's tears.  But I do think there may be some who are still loyal to Jon at Castle Black; and we have all the wildlings. I mean, when I play the continuation of the stabbing scene in my head, I just don't see them passively watching and doing nothing. So, whatever happens, there will be consequences. I see these consequences as triggering changes in the NW.

As to the tolerance and acceptance I’ve mentioned before, I wasn’t talking about the NW becoming more tolerant, exactly.
I won’t go into it here, I don’t want to go too off-topic. But I meant is that when all is said and done, learning to accept each other’s differences and becoming more tolerant will have been the point of the whole saga, so to speak.

Back to the link between AA’s legend and the NW, the more I think about it, the more I think it is possible. I’m still searching the books for key words; I’d like to have all the references to Lightbringer, AA,  the Red Sword of Heroes, and the Battle for the Dawn. From what I have seen so far, there is that quote upthread from Melisandre, and Salladhor Saan says something quite similar to Davos in ACoK. In those two instances I think all we can be fairly certain of is that the legend of AA has reached Asshai (and the rest of world). This doesn’t necessarily mean the legend is to be taken literally. I have found something on the Wiki of Ice and Fire (http://awoiaf.wester...le_for_the_Dawn ) saying the CotF and the First Men fought together against the Others. The Andal Invasion took place 6,000 to 4,000 years ago, i.e., after the Battle for the Dawn; the Rhoynar Invasion happened only 700 years before Aegon’s Landing. I believe both events ‘pushed’ the remaining CotF and First Men north – if there were any to the south to begin with. All this seems to indicate that whatever happened during the Battle for the Dawn is not recorded in westerosi history, and that there is nothing to back up the legend of AA as it is mentioned by Melisandre, etc.

[ARYa_Nym]

Kissdbyfire, on 08 November 2011 - 11:39 AM, said:

Yes, it is likely the ones involved in the stabbing won't want him as a leader if he doesn’t die or dies and comes back. After all, they did stab him, and I can see no reason for them to have changed their minds yet- even with Bowen Marsh's tears.  But I do think there may be some who are still loyal to Jon at Castle Black; and we have all the wildlings. I mean, when I play the continuation of the stabbing scene in my head, I just don't see them passively watching and doing nothing. So, whatever happens, there will be consequences. I see these consequences as triggering changes in the NW.

As to the tolerance and acceptance I’ve mentioned before, I wasn’t talking about the NW becoming more tolerant, exactly.
I won’t go into it here, I don’t want to go too off-topic. But I meant is that when all is said and done, learning to accept each other’s differences and becoming more tolerant will have been the point of the whole saga, so to speak.

Back to the link between AA’s legend and the NW, the more I think about it, the more I think it is possible. I’m still searching the books for key words; I’d like to have all the references to Lightbringer, AA,  the Red Sword of Heroes, and the Battle for the Dawn. From what I have seen so far, there is that quote upthread from Melisandre, and Salladhor Saan says something quite similar to Davos in ACoK. In those two instances I think all we can be fairly certain of is that the legend of AA has reached Asshai (and the rest of world). This doesn’t necessarily mean the legend is to be taken literally. I have found something on the Wiki of Ice and Fire (http://awoiaf.wester...le_for_the_Dawn ) saying the CotF and the First Men fought together against the Others. The Andal Invasion took place 6,000 to 4,000 years ago, i.e., after the Battle for the Dawn; the Rhoynar Invasion happened only 700 years before Aegon’s Landing. I believe both events ‘pushed’ the remaining CotF and First Men north – if there were any to the south to begin with. All this seems to indicate that whatever happened during the Battle for the Dawn is not recorded in westerosi history, and that there is nothing to back up the legend of AA as it is mentioned by Melisandre, etc.

I definitely don't think it's exactly as the Asshai legend. Mel is looking for one person. Maybe it's the 3 heads of the dragon. Aemon thinks that Dany is the PWWP yet she fits the AA prophecy. Jon may fit the AA prophecy more literally than Dany with a red sword. Dany fits it more literally by waking dragons from stone and by being born on Dragonstone.

It looks to me like a chaotic situation is coming. The wildlings and the NW were coming to an agreement. Now it's going to be broken. They will be focused on each other instead of preparing for the coming threat. Just like the North is focused on the Boltons and Freys instead of being unified under a Stark.

Jon understood that the North was crucial.  Stannis is a Southerner and won't necessarily be able to convince the Northmen that the Others are coming. He's more focused on gaining control over the North rn anyway.

Then there's not a lot of dragonglass or Valyrian steel for the NW to fight the Others with. These seem to have been used the first time.

[Stark13]

Ghost Rider, on 08 November 2011 - 04:29 AM, said:

On a somewhat different note: if you think it possible that a body of men could be Lightbringer, how about a single man who swore the oath and is still true, say Samwell Tarly? I really don't see much difference for symbolic value there. And I guess it will make a difference whether the NW men swore their oath in front of a heart tree or in a sept, because of the Old Gods magic in the Wall. We'we already seen that at work when Sam crossed the Wall throught that Gate and I expect it to come into play again.

I like what you said about it mattering if the NW men swore their oath in front of a heart tree or in a sept. Never thought of that. But I disagree about you saying Sam is 'a single man who swore the oath and is still true'. I mean he slept with Gilly right?

[sara_stk]

didnt azor ahai had to make some sacrifices... maybe that what happened with jon.
He staying true to his vows when his brother was at war, then he died. or when Ygritte asked to stay at the cave then he left her to protect the wall then she died.

Spoiler

thats why i think the vows are important, people say that now that he is dead, and when he returns he will be free. I just think is such a good writing.

[lostcause]

Very interesting concept indeed!

Going by your theory, that Lightbringer is simply the NW itself.

Then AAR as the legend goes according to Mel:

"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

And again from wiki, in the legends of Asshai:

According to prophesy In ancient books of Asshai from over five thousand years ago, Azor Ahai is to be reborn again as The Prince that was Promised to challenge the Others. This will occur after a long summer when an evil, cold darkness descends upon the world.It is said that The Prince that was Promised, wielding Lightbringer once again, will stand against the Others and if he fails, the world fails with him.


Reading these 2 sentences, it stands pretty clear to me, that the "old" Lightbringer - the NW - will crumble and fall along with the wall. Darkness will lay across the world again.

AAR will then show himself by drawing from the fire a burning sword.

Could this not be Jon, drawing Dany and her Dragon armies to fight the Others? Her dragon army, not the NW being the new Lightbringer. His imagie of fighting the others in a armor of ice and red sword...well the sword could be him riding a dragon. The ice armor I haven't figured out, I'm almost sure the wall will fall. Maybe an ice dragon as has been speculated, or simply Ghost, the symbol of Winter up in the north.

Edited by lostcause, 26 November 2011 - 08:33 PM.

[Lady Candace]

A thought, slightly crackpot.

Melisandre is this time's Nissa Nissa, and she knows it. As we know from the text, she's always very good about noticing threats to herself. Priestess though she is, perhaps she doesn't want to be Nissa Nissa, and is looking for some way to get around it.

So she sets up Stannis as Azor Ahai reborn, knowing he's not the real one, and puts her effort into making it believable. In my crackpot, she probably knows about the LC or Wall being the site of the real AA rebirth.

It was Davos I believe who encouraged Stannis to go to the Wall. Melisandre did not, and if she was NN, why would she? Her powers may be stronger there, but if the LC/Wall is part of the Azor Ahai prophecy, and she's not wanting to be struck through with a sword it would seem that would be the last place Mel would want to go on holiday.

She gets there, and her visions looking for AA turn out to only show her Jon. She realizes what he must be. For a while she keeps her enemy closer. Jon becomes LC. After a time, there's a natural situation that it would seem conceivable for his men to mutiny and get rid of him. She uses her powers to glamor them into stabbing Jon (Bowen was crying during it, was he not? That doesn't seem like someone willingly killing another person out of anger). Her candidate for AA remains in tact, and she's done off with the likely "real" AA.

But as we can imagine, no matter the theories surrounding it, in WoW Jon is not likely to have cleanly died like anyone wanted him to...