283 replies to this topic

[kissdbyfire]

ARYa_Nym, on 08 November 2011 - 04:32 AM, said:

Jon still has to go to Winterfell's crypts. Maybe Bran the Builder hid it down there somewhere since we don't know why he has to go down there.

Yes, I remember something along those lines but no details whatsoever. Do you know where this appears?

[kissdbyfire]

Candace, on 26 November 2011 - 09:28 PM, said:

A thought, slightly crackpot.

So she sets up Stannis as Azor Ahai reborn, knowing he's not the real one, and puts her effort into making it believable.

I always had the impression Melisandre does believe Stannis is AA. There's something in ADwD where she keeps staring at the flames, asking for a vision of AA and gets a bit annoyed and doesn't understand why the flames keep showing Jon Snow instead.

ADwD, Melisandre chapter:
"Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow."

[Lady Candace]

Kissdbyfire, on 26 November 2011 - 09:29 PM, said:

Yes, I remember something along those lines but no details whatsoever. Do you know where this appears?

Jon's recurring dream about going into the crypts to find someone, something

[kissdbyfire]

Candace, on 26 November 2011 - 09:50 PM, said:

Jon's recurring dream about going into the crypts to find someone, something

Ah, I see... Cheers, Candace. Do you happen to remember in which book(s) he has these dreams? I don't recall much about this at all!

[Apple Martini]

Candace, on 26 November 2011 - 09:50 PM, said:

Jon's recurring dream about going into the crypts to find someone, something

I always thought it was a reference to his mother, who's buried in the crypts. But it could be something else, I suppose, or both.

Edited by Apple Martini, 26 November 2011 - 10:07 PM.

[Lady Candace]

Kissdbyfire, on 26 November 2011 - 10:04 PM, said:

Ah, I see... Cheers, Candace. Do you happen to remember in which book(s) he has these dreams? I don't recall much about this at all!

http://www.westeros....ies/Entry/1793/

Book 1!

[Lady Candace]

Kissdbyfire, on 26 November 2011 - 09:46 PM, said:

I always had the impression Melisandre does believe Stannis is AA. There's something in ADwD where she keeps staring at the flames, asking for a vision of AA and gets a bit annoyed and doesn't understand why the flames keep showing Jon Snow instead.

ADwD, Melisandre chapter:
"Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow."

It's possible, though you think she might've caught on if she started out believing it was Stannis and "Rhollor" never showed him as AA.

[kissdbyfire]

Candace, on 26 November 2011 - 10:22 PM, said:

It's possible, though you think she might've caught on if she started out believing it was Stannis and "Rhollor" never showed him as AA.

I know, right? She makes many mistakes reading those blasted fires of hers!

[Lady Candace]

Kissdbyfire, on 26 November 2011 - 10:32 PM, said:

I know, right? She makes many mistakes reading those blasted fires of hers!

Ahh, she drives me crazy.

I think thus why I'm hoping she truly knows better and this is all some elaborate scheme!

[kissdbyfire]

Candace, on 26 November 2011 - 10:20 PM, said:

http://www.westeros....ies/Entry/1793/

Book 1!

Thank you!
Found a couple in ASoS as well:

"He dreamt he was back in Winterfell, limping past the stone kings on their thrones. Their grey granite eyes turned to follow him as he passed, and their grey granite fingers tightened on the hilts of the rusted swords upon their laps. You are no Stark, he could hear them mutter, in heavy granite voices. There is no place for you here. Go away. He walked deeper into the darkness. “Father?” he called. “Bran? Rickon?” No one answered. A chill wind was blowing on his neck. “Uncle?” he called. “Uncle Benjen? Father? Please, Father, help me.” Up above he heard drums. They are feasting in the Great Hall, but I am not welcome there. I am no Stark, and this is not my place. His crutch slipped and he fell to his knees. The crypts were growing darker. A light has gone out somewhere. “Ygritte?” he whispered. “Forgive me. Please.” But it was only a direwolf, grey and ghastly, spotted with blood, his golden eyes shining sadly through the dark . . . "
*snip*
"Ghost . . . where are you? Was he dead as well, was that what his dream had meant, the bloody wolf in the crypts? But the wolf in the dream had been grey, not white. Grey, like Bran’s wolf. Had the Thenns hunted him down and killed him after Queenscrown? If so, Bran was lost to him for good and all.
Jon was trying to make sense of that when the horn blew."

And this one too:
"How can I be a warg without a wolf, I ask you?” His mouth twisted. “I don’t even dream of Ghost anymore. All my dreams are of the crypts, of the stone kings on their thrones. Sometimes I hear Robb’s voice, and my father’s, as if they were at a feast. But there’s a wall between us, and I know that no place has been set for me.”

[FanTasy]

Apple Martini, on 26 November 2011 - 10:07 PM, said:

I always thought it was a reference to his mother, who's buried in the crypts. But it could be something else, I suppose, or both.

Re-forging Ice, with a little help of Gendry maybe?

[Serie]

you guys drive me crazy with these amazing theories! how could I be so blind when reading the books??? I'm Mel, I read one thing and understand another! No, actually I'm not even as good as Mel. I'm Hot Pie, people cry out for Winterfell and I cry out "Hot Pieeeeeeeeeeeee"

[Eyron I]

Serie, on 27 November 2011 - 07:44 AM, said:

you guys drive me crazy with these amazing theories! how could I be so blind when reading the books??? I'm Mel, I read one thing and understand another! No, actually I'm not even as good as Mel. I'm Hot Pie, people cry out for Winterfell and I cry out "Hot Pieeeeeeeeeeeee"

Hot pie's war cry was one of the most touching things I read in the whole series! It made me want to cry and laugh at the same time.

People on this board are amazing! I got so many nice ideas from their theories, and a better understanding of the story over all.

I analyse a lot when I read, but tend to forget half of it when I put down the book, and I miss a lot of the interesting details. I am so lucky that I found this place!

[Serie]

@eira
Yes, I know what you mean! I have the same feelings too about the forum. Today I got so excited  about the Lightbringer theory that I've done a lot of re-reading and changed completely my view about the identity of AA (naturally)!

[Ser-Arthur-Dayne]

Kissdbyfire, on 26 November 2011 - 10:32 PM, said:

I know, right? She makes many mistakes reading those blasted fires of hers!

She has everything all spelled out in front of her, all she has to do is pronunce it, yet she can't even do all that!

[Ser-Arthur-Dayne]

Serie, on 27 November 2011 - 07:44 AM, said:

you guys drive me crazy with these amazing theories! how could I be so blind when reading the books??? I'm Mel, I read one thing and understand another! No, actually I'm not even as good as Mel. I'm Hot Pie, people cry out for Winterfell and I cry out "Hot Pieeeeeeeeeeeee"

Don't blame yourself, I actually missed A LOT of things before coming here

[Eyron I]

Ghost Rider, on 08 November 2011 - 04:29 AM, said:

I was kind of afraid you might say that. So what you basically need for your theory to work is the fundamental change of the NW. Imho nothing in the text so far suggests that this kind of change is to be expected. I mean, they murdered Jon to prevent this kind of change. And Jon... wanted to strengthen the NW, yes, but he mostly tried to include other forces.

There is however something in the text that would support the likely failure of the NW, quoted upthread by Kissdbyfire:

That quote seems to foreshadow the eventual failure of the NW imho. Of course your more optimistic read of the situation post assassination attempt might win out, but for a full-out war to start, we would need the Others to be able to cross the Wall somehow.

I don't see it this way at all, why do the NW have to be successfully restored and united for the NW to be lightbringer? Why can't the next NW be made out of wildlings, women and the new recruits or simply anyone brave enough to engage in the fight with the Others and remain loyal to the LC?

The failure of this NW (Marsh and the rest) does not say anything about the success or failure of the following. This NW can collapse into ruin and from that will rise a new (stronger, better, faster) Night's Watch. This new NW will be the essence of what they are suppose to be, the men loyal to their Lord Commander, and the ones that hold true to the spirit of the vow.

Ghost Rider, on 08 November 2011 - 04:29 AM, said:

But really, the situation at the moment is this: The NW don't know anymore about the threat of the Others then most everybody else in the seven kingdoms. The Wildlings likely know more about fighting the Others then the NW. And they're not interested in learning more either with the exception of their (former) LC Jon Snow who they just murdered. Where do you see the sparks to light the fire? I'd sooner think they're about to be wiped out.

Hmm, that sounds very fine and good, but I really don't see how that could possibly happen. We have to work with the men we have, there won't be any others. And Jon repeatedly remarks how all the good men of the NW are gone and he cannot rely on any of them. I totally agree with him there. From what we've seen (ok, via his POV, but I still think it's rather reliable), they're a bunch of narrow-minded idiots who just want to keep everything the way it always has been which is of course a very human desire, but won't be of much use when facing a new threat.

So there is a very real danger that "Lightbringer" in this normative sense might never reach its full potential.

If you look at the story of the Last Hero, he goes with 12 men to find the CotF AFTER the Others have invaded the lands. Winter is in full mode when he get's the help from the CotF. So for the LC and the NW to fail now and disintegrate only to later be "reforged" into a force is not ultimate failure in defending the realm. If a new NW rises, well they can defend the realm and reach it's true potential.

I agree winter and Others will come and the Wall will fall (symbolically maybe), but holding the Wall is not what the first NW was about, they defeated the Others on the ground. The Wall came later and is only a defence post, it can fall and it could be because the current NW was not true.
The forging of lightbringer took three attempts according to the prophecy of AA, and it could this time too. Mormont tried, Jon tried and maybe he or someone else will try again. All Jon's opponents will probably die soon from the Others or the fight that is likely taking place in the yard at Castle Black after the assassination.

Ghost Rider, on 08 November 2011 - 04:29 AM, said:

On a somewhat different note: if you think it possible that a body of men could be Lightbringer, how about a single man who swore the oath and is still true, say Samwell Tarly? I really don't see much difference for symbolic value there. And I guess it will make a difference whether the NW men swore their oath in front of a heart tree or in a sept, because of the Old Gods magic in the Wall. We'we already seen that at work when Sam crossed the Wall throught that Gate and I expect it to come into play again.

I think there will be a few men in the new NW, those who still are loyal to the LC. It was not numbers that won the war the last time. I like to think that swearing the oath before the weirwood is important, but that would rule out a few of Jon's friends (I think they are still loyal to him) and I don't like that

[Ghost Rider]

Eira, on 27 November 2011 - 01:15 PM, said:

I don't see it this way at all, why do the NW have to be successfully restored and united for the NW to be lightbringer? Why can't the next NW be made out of wildlings, women and the new recruits or simply anyone brave enough to engage in the fight with the Others and remain loyal to the LC?

Dear Eira, I completely agree. There can be a new force, made up of Wildlings, women, new recruits and whoever else wants to join in the fight. But: why would that force be the equivalent of the Night's Watch as opposed to any other armed force? Just that they would follow the (former) LC? That they would swear the NW oath: aka I will take no wife, father no children and all that crap? (I don't see the Wildlings doing that, btw) Is that even necessary for a fighting force against the Others? (I guess, it could make a difference...)

Eira, on 27 November 2011 - 01:15 PM, said:

The failure of this NW (Marsh and the rest) does not say anything about the success or failure of the following. This NW can collapse into ruin and from that will rise a new (stronger, better, faster) Night's Watch. This new NW will be the essence of what they are suppose to be, the men loyal to their Lord Commander, and the ones that hold true to the spirit of the vow.

I'd be very content with it as long as they cut the above mentioned crap. As long as they hold to these vows as they are at the moment, I sincerely hope that the NW will be doomed. I see the NW as an irredemably rotten institution. It doesn't have a chance to work any better in the long run either if they don't change fundamentally. And that change for me involves more then to turn them into an effective fighting force. They are now made to suppress men's best instincts, like love and compassion which imho is not necessary to fight. Why should the chance to enjoy human happiness be a deterrent to their task? Isn't love one of the (few) forces that can drive human beings to sacrifice? So why not allow it? I can see only political reasons there.

But if all that's to change, you practically wouldn't know this organization for the NW anymore, they would just be.... Jon's supporters maybe? The fellowship of AA?

I guess that's my main argument against the NW as Lightbringer in a nutshell. While it's a compelling theory, I don't think NW as an institution deserves the honour. And if it were to change, it wouldn't be the NW anymore. So in the end it's probably a question of what exactly defines the "true" NW.

[Serie]

Ghost Rider, on 28 November 2011 - 07:59 AM, said:

But: why would that force be the equivalent of the Night's Watch as opposed to any other armed force? Just that they would follow the (former) LC? That they would swear the NW oath: aka I will take no wife, father no children and all that crap? (I don't see the Wildlings doing that, btw) Is that even necessary for a fighting force against the Others? (I guess, it could make a difference...)

just a question, why do you think that the NW oath is crap? I mean, the explanation given, that a man with a family will be unwilling to support 100% the NW and die for it, seems quite satisfactory to me.

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

Ghost Rider, on 28 November 2011 - 07:59 AM, said:

But: why would that force be the equivalent of the Night's Watch as opposed to any other armed force? Just that they would follow the (former) LC? That they would swear the NW oath: aka I will take no wife, father no children and all that crap? (I don't see the Wildlings doing that, btw) Is that even necessary for a fighting force against the Others? (I guess, it could make a difference...)

I don't think the oath's merits (or its lack of such) is a necessary premise for Apple Martini's theory. The idea seems to be that the prophesy has been molded to fit the concept that the NW represents, using words such as "swords," and "sacrifice."