449 replies to this topic

[Alexia]

Okay, I'm exhausted and not going to finish typing up my recap tonight.  But that shouldn't halt the discussion!

This is the last thread.

This is the last post of the last thread:

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Hehe when I was reading asos I was totally clueless and thought that Robb might actually win against Frey-Boltwin lol... So I had this idea that Dany and Robb would meet and fall in love and rule all of Westeros together! <-- dork/world's only Dany/Robb shipper.

I suspect that Dany would want the seven kingdoms to be the seven kingdoms and probably would not accept a separate Northern Kingdom except in a very specific scenario.

I think how that would actually play out would depend on the status of each army. E.g. if Dany were to appear at such a time that she basically rescued the Starks from complete disaster, I think that Robb et al would be willing to accept an alliance with the Targaryens that returned them to the status quo pre-Robert. After all, it's brought up when Robb is crowned that the Starks only knelt to the Dragon, not the Stag. In the end I think the Starks would accept a Targaryen as regent if it was the only way to get rid of the Lannisters.

On the other hand if Robb's forces are substantially larger than Dany's and if Robb's situation looks promising... It depends I suppose on whether she feels she needs Robb's forces. She might remain neutral to The North and Riverlands while she takes out the other 5 kingdoms. If she needs Robb's forces/cooperation to make any headway at all she might start by offering marriage alliance. If Robb declines, I think that she would accept his help (in exchange for Northern Autonomy) if it was the only way to claim the Iron Throne in the short term. Then the North could become the new Dorne (France?), to be conquered by some descendant, or united through marriage alliance later. I don't think she'd give up on trying for a united seven kingdoms eventually.

And I swear one of the mods is following our reread thread, or they wouldn't have axed it so promptly at the 400 post mark!

Carry on... rereaders!

[voodooqueen126]

Alexia, on 17 November 2011 - 11:38 PM, said:

Okay, I'm exhausted and not going to finish typing up my recap tonight.  But that shouldn't halt the discussion!

This is the last thread.

This is the last post of the last thread:

And I swear one of the mods is following our reread thread, or they wouldn't have axed it so promptly at the 400 post mark!

Carry on... rereaders!

Well Scotland joined the UK because Margaret Tudor married the King of Scots, and her descendants where the only ones who had issue (except for a few illegitimate descendants of Mary Tudor/Brandon).

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Alexia, on 17 November 2011 - 11:38 PM, said:

Okay, I'm exhausted and not going to finish typing up my recap tonight.  But that shouldn't halt the discussion!

This is the last thread.

This is the last post of the last thread:

And I swear one of the mods is following our reread thread, or they wouldn't have axed it so promptly at the 400 post mark!

Carry on... rereaders!

Thanks for rebooting it Alexia!  

For the uninitiated (not that everyone on westeros.org isn't following this thread with baited breath), we are currently on her second chapter in a Clash of Kings, about to start the third...  

...Hey!  
Some of those tags are clearly partisan!  

[Sevumar]

I wanted to address a few things MDIND was saying at the end of the last thread, so all these quotes and references are from her post.

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I don't think we really have radically different readings though. In fact I think we agree on the fundamentals?

Jorah is a smart man with useful experience he would like to impart.
However, Jorah is driven in his actions at least as much by his heart as by his head.
Jorah worries (you think rightfully, I think not so much) that Dany is too naive and trusting, and that she is in real danger from Robert and others.
Jorah, being in love with Dany, feels some amount of jealousy when she spends time not with him, especially when she is with men he does not know.
Thus, Jorah advises her more stringently than he otherwise might (e.g. if he was not in love and jealous) not to trust anyone, and to not think about going to Westeros.
Finally, Dany is a remarkably intelligent young woman and in this chapter shows more ability to understand what is going on than Jorah gives her credit for.

You won't get an argument from me that Jorah's not intelligent, it's just too bad that he allows his feelings to override his judgment when he's deeply in love. At this point in the story, I do not think his feelings for her are negatively impacting his ability to act as an adviser. I believe that comes in more after Barristan arrives on the scene and he begins to see some competition for the services and advice he provides.

Like I said, I don't see his suspicion and advice here as being motivated by jealousy or his underestimating her abilities or intelligence. At this point in the story, Jorah's the military adviser I'd want to have if I was in Dany's situation, and I believe his advice to be sound and well-grounded in reason. The big danger that Jorah sees in their current situation is simply that everything is volatile and unknown. That's true in both Qarth and Westeros.

I don't see him underestimating her understanding of the situation. He does occasionally restate things she knows, but I don't think he's doing it in a condescending manner. It's what you'd hope any halfway competent adviser would do in that situation. It seems natural to want to verify what's already known and verbalize that we're starting from the same understanding, but that could be because I do that a lot myself.

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But, I also find Dany's actions and reactions completely understandable!

I don't think her reactions are necessarily the way people are interpreting them here. I think what comes across most in the chapter is excitement at the possibility of finding allies, and a burning desire to finally do something now that she's out of the Red Waste, and the situation in Westeros is deteriorating. She senses that it's an advantageous time to act, and Jorah has some misgivings about it. Her high level of enthusiasm is understandable in someone her age and with her background, and Jorah's actions are both understandable and justifiable based on his role and background.

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She's in a difficult position. If she calls him on his feelings, she will shame him and break his heart (but at least there would be resolution). Instead she opts to be as kind to him as she can and hope that he either gets over his feelings or can control them - as an adult he should be able to handle that. She is not responsable for his feelings.

I think "calling him on it" is probably not the phrase I would use, since it seems to imply he's doing something wrong. I think she can discuss it with him without causing a large rift between them, and she can certainly handle it better than she ends up doing in ASoS. But it's a bit disingenuous to say that he's expected to get over his feelings if he doesn't know she's not interested. It's an avoidance issue, and we know this is a big theme for Dany.

He's also in a difficult position without many options. I don't think he can really afford to leave her service since he doesn't really have anywhere else to go, so I think he'd ultimately accept it if they had a private, adult conversation about what's going on.

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I also understand your interpretation is that Dany might not find Jorah's feelings for her entirely unwanted. I rather agree, given her thoughts in adwd (regarding Barristan averting his eyes from her nekkids) "Ser Jorah would not look away. He loved me as a woman, not just as a queen." Dany is in a nebulous area. She finds his love for her sweet but also sad because she cannot reciprocate - it seems like a realistic reaction to me.

I think there are some hints that she might not want to acknowledge having some romantic feelings for him. He'd never be the first choice, of course. She does seem to feel a little insulted that Barristan isn't attracted to her later on. I think she's still not quite sure how to respond to Jorah's feelings, and it wouldn't surprise me if she found herself reciprocating by the end of the book, but I doubt they'd end up together.

I also wanted to make one more remark about the Ned thing. I understand where Dany's coming from, but I think that she has an obligation, if she wants to be an honest, truthful person, to acknowledge that Ned's actions toward her were just and quite charitable given the situation. For much of the story, she's not in a position to realize this, but her waving off Barristan's attempts to tell her the truth don't bode well for this part of her character development.

[Alexia]

MyDogIsNamedDanerys, on 18 November 2011 - 12:42 AM, said:

...Hey!  
Some of those tags are clearly partisan!  

You have no idea how much fun I had choosing tags.    But "Usurper's dogs" is my favorite.

[SeanF]

Seuvmar,

In ADWD, Daenerys didn't actually think it was much of a point in his favour that Ned had argued against her assasination.

If she is to rule Westeros successfully, she'll have to be prepared to accept some painful truths about her father.

[headtrip_honey]

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Hehe when I was reading asos I was totally clueless and thought that Robb might actually win against Frey-Boltwin lol... So I had this idea that Dany and Robb would meet and fall in love and rule all of Westeros together! <-- dork/world's only Dany/Robb shipper.

I suspect that Dany would want the seven kingdoms to be the seven kingdoms and probably would not accept a separate Northern Kingdom except in a very specific scenario.

I think how that would actually play out would depend on the status of each army. E.g. if Dany were to appear at such a time that she basically rescued the Starks from complete disaster, I think that Robb et al would be willing to accept an alliance with the Targaryens that returned them to the status quo pre-Robert. After all, it's brought up when Robb is crowned that the Starks only knelt to the Dragon, not the Stag. In the end I think the Starks would accept a Targaryen as regent if it was the only way to get rid of the Lannisters.

On the other hand if Robb's forces are substantially larger than Dany's and if Robb's situation looks promising... It depends I suppose on whether she feels she needs Robb's forces. She might remain neutral to The North and Riverlands while she takes out the other 5 kingdoms. If she needs Robb's forces/cooperation to make any headway at all she might start by offering marriage alliance. If Robb declines, I think that she would accept his help (in exchange for Northern Autonomy) if it was the only way to claim the Iron Throne in the short term. Then the North could become the new Dorne (France?), to be conquered by some descendant, or united through marriage alliance later. I don't think she'd give up on trying for a united seven kingdoms eventually.

I think I pretty much agree - I see Dany as pretty set on wanting a united 7 kingdoms, but being flexible if she could make an alliance to secure the throne.

However, my question was more aimed to the future, not to Robb's situation, as alas, he is no more.

I have to say, one of my favorite things about ASOIAF is the idea of women in power. Yes, it's a very sexist and patriarchal society, but we see these undercurrents of women who could rule/want to rule. Cersei wants to rule (no one wants her to, though, more's the pity ), Arianne WILL rule in Dorne, and has tried to make Myrcella Queen, Dany could very well rule (has there been another Targaryen queen who was sole regent, not just queen to a Targaryen King?), and I'm a huge proponent of Sansa as Queen in the North. I would just love it if the political systems get overthrown and women take over. Mwahahahaha.

Idealistic and optimistic, but I like the prospect anyhow.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

headtrip_honey, on 18 November 2011 - 10:16 AM, said:

I think I pretty much agree - I see Dany as pretty set on wanting a united 7 kingdoms, but being flexible if she could make an alliance to secure the throne.

However, my question was more aimed to the future, not to Robb's situation, as alas, he is no more.

I have to say, one of my favorite things about ASOIAF is the idea of women in power. Yes, it's a very sexist and patriarchal society, but we see these undercurrents of women who could rule/want to rule. Cersei wants to rule (no one wants her to, though, more's the pity ), Arianne WILL rule in Dorne, and has tried to make Myrcella Queen, Dany could very well rule (has there been another Targaryen queen who was sole regent, not just queen to a Targaryen King?), and I'm a huge proponent of Sansa as Queen in the North. I would just love it if the political systems get overthrown and women take over. Mwahahahaha.

Idealistic and optimistic, but I like the prospect anyhow.

Oh, it's a lovely idea.  LF lampshaded it in a feast for crows with his war of the three queens quip.  He doens't quite realize how many there really are, it seems...

I guess I don't particularly like the idea of the kingdoms splitting up, though?  It seems like it would lead to more war.  Why not unite officially, but allow each of the kingdoms to remain fairly autonomous?  I would certainly love for each of the ladies to mention to rule her roost in her own right -unfortunately in Westeros (except Dorne) they would probably each have to have some figurehead boy who is the "official" ruler.  E.g. Sansa would have Rickon (and Robert Arryn?), Cersei would have Tommen, etc.  Im not sure why queen in the north is so much better than Warden of the North/Lady of Winterfell.

BTW, my favored Queen of Westeros candidate isn't actually Dany now - it's Shireen.  

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Dany could very well rule (has there been another Targaryen queen who was sole regent, not just queen to a Targaryen King?)

Nope, succession to the iron throne has always gone to a male.  In fact a woman with a more direct claim was passed over in favor of a man which is what started the original Dance with Dragons.  In this way, succession of the Iron Throne is a bit different/more strict about gender than succession to the various lordships.  E.g. Cersei is considered Lady of Casterly Rock, not Lancel or Kevan.

Obviously having three dragons and the loyalty of everyone in the kingdom would probably help Dany out in changing this particular rule however.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

SeanF, on 18 November 2011 - 07:10 AM, said:

If she is to rule Westeros successfully, she'll have to be prepared to accept some painful truths about her father.

You know...  I'm not sure I actually agree with this.  I think readers would like Dany better if she accepted the painful truths about her father.  And I think it would show good strength of character, flexibility, etc.  She would probably be a better ruler, I can agree with that much.

However, I think it's quite possible for someone to rule successfully while lying to themselves about specific things.  Tywin never accepted the difficult truths about his children, and remained blind to them to the day he died - yet he was a spectacularly effective Hand (while Aerys lived anyway).  Aerys himself was a complete psychopath in the end but apparently the kingdom prospered for the first... 15 years of his reign?  Randyll Tarly is a monster to his son and refuses to see any good in him but apparently does a decent job of ruling his own lands (though his methods are pretty awful).  And on and on.  Effective rulership doesn't seem to have a ton to do with how awesome a person you are.

Anyway it's all beside the point because I believe that Dany already has accepted that her father was an insane monster - in fact she worries her several times in asos and adwd that she, too, might have the taint that Barristan speaks of.  She already wants to be more like Rhaegar, and avoid being like Aerys and Viserys.  Even if this is as far as it goes I don't see her current attitude re: Aerys being something that stops her from ruling effectively.

[Alexia]

You know, one of the things that bothered me while reading Chapter 2 was that Jorah hasn't told her anything about what happened in the War of Five Kings.  And in conjunction with Selmy and ADWD, it has kinda pissed me off.

Jorah fought in the rebellion.  He might not know the specifics of what was done to Rickard and Brandon, but he knows perfectly well the chain of events -- Lyanna missing and supposedly kidnapped, Brandon riding south to challenge Rhaegar, the fathers being summoned and murdered without trial, and the subsequent demands for Ned and Robert (neither of whom did anything) to be turned over.

Dany was spouting off at the mouth about how could Ned Stark have any honor if he rebels against his rightful king.  Why doesn't she know this?  What hasn't Jorah told her everything he knows about the events of the rebellion?  Why hasn't she asked?  If she is going to hate Ned, at least hate him based on facts instead of ignorance.  Goodness knows, there's plenty of reason for her to hate Ned -- certainly the atrocities that took place around the rebellion, the murder of the Targaryen children, the Sack of KL, her own enforced exile, et cetera.  Ned is one of the key leaders of the rebellion and thus he shares in the responsibility for those events, and we determined earlier that his troops probably participated in the Sack.

But this is frustrating, and I'm having trouble blaming the character on this score because I find it so over the top and unbelievable that she would not have pumped Jorah for everything he knew about her family and the rebellion.

MyDogIsNamedDanerys, on 18 November 2011 - 10:31 AM, said:

BTW, my favored Queen of Westeros candidate isn't actually Dany now - it's Shireen.  

In that case, what would you like to see happen with Dany?

I'm a big fan of the kingdoms dividing again.  There's no cultural similarities between huge swaths and the continent is too big to govern effectively without dragons.  Seeing women take power in various kingdoms would be very satisfying.  Sansa and Harry as co-rulers in the North, Vale, and Riverlands.  Asha ruling through Theon in the Iron Isles.  Arianne ruling in Dorne.

[headtrip_honey]

Crap! I forgot about Asha! My bad!

Anyway, I just love that we have all these female contenders. I wouldn't mind Myrcella on the Iron Throne.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Alexia, on 18 November 2011 - 10:55 AM, said:

You know, one of the things that bothered me while reading Chapter 2 was that Jorah hasn't told her anything about what happened in the War of Five Kings.  And in conjunction with Selmy and ADWD, it has kinda pissed me off.

But this is frustrating, and I'm having trouble blaming the character on this score because I find it so over the top and unbelievable that she would not have pumped Jorah for everything he knew about her family and the rebellion.

I'm thinking she has a complete narrative in her mind about what happened from her brother and Illyrio.  We don't find out exactly what was left out/added/left in, but I'm guessing it's a neat enough story that she wouldn't think to question it.

She doesn't ask Jorah because he hasn't said anything to indicate to her that he knew any of her family well.  In fact, Jorah's comments on Ned are pretty consistent with the caricature she has of him.  He's stem, cold hearted, fixated on an idea of honor, etc.

We see in aSoS when she hears that Arstan actually knew her family that she really is quite curious and pumps him for information more than once.  I agree with you that the character's behavior on this topic is oddly inconsistent considering the events in adwd.  I blame GRRM - it seems like he's decided it's not the time for Dany to find that out, so his plot device is to suddenly have her forget that she's interested.

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In that case, what would you like to see happen with Dany?

I'm assuming she will die saving the kingdoms from the others (and so will Jon and probably Stannis).  She may leave an heir, we'll see.

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I'm a big fan of the kingdoms dividing again.  There's no cultural similarities between huge swaths and the continent is too big to govern effectively without dragons.

Well, good thing we have them then!

The 7 kingdoms are a pretty loose association to begin with and that's what I'd argue is beneficial.  The point of having a center of power that everyone bows to is to prevent civil war, and that seemed to have worked pretty darn well under the Targs and even Robert for awhile.  Anytime someone rebelled, the other 6 kingdoms bind together and stop them.

If all the kingdoms are totally autonomous feudal kingdoms, you'll end up with much more war/less trade/less travel/less cooperation than you do if everyone looks to a higher authority.  You must have a stable dynasty, though, or it all falls apart (like it did here).

Or... we could just drop feudalism and switch to democracy/communism.  

[Alexia]

MyDogIsNamedDanerys, on 18 November 2011 - 11:17 AM, said:

I'm assuming she will die saving the kingdoms from the others (and so will Jon and probably Stannis).  She may leave an heir, we'll see.

So it looks like we are in agreement about the end-game for Dany.  Stannis is definitely going to die but I'm not sure about Jon, given the end up ADWD.

MyDogIsNamedDanerys, on 18 November 2011 - 11:17 AM, said:

Well, good thing we have them then!

Here's the thing, though.  I'm not really in the camp that wants someone else to take control of her fire-breathing monsters.  I envision the monsters escaping after she dies and living happy lives in the westerlands... a cursed territory where no man may enter for fear of his life!  

MyDogIsNamedDanerys, on 18 November 2011 - 11:17 AM, said:

The 7 kingdoms are a pretty loose association to begin with and that's what I'd argue is beneficial.  

I'd argue that this is their downfall.  There is no sense of national identity (actually, much like England during the equivalent time period).  They either have to be ruled by a brutal and ruthless dictator to stay together (Targaryens and dragons) or they will collapse from the inside out... so we either need a new brutal and ruthless dictator (Dany may fit this bill eventually, but I think we both agree she's not destined to take the throne) or they collapse.  In a giant, bloody, mess.  Hey, look!

There is one chance that I can see for Westeros to stay united and that is our new High Septon.  If he introduces a theocratic dictatorship, he might be able to hold most of the kingdoms under his rule.  But he has problems... there will be war with the North (old gods) and heresy is flooding the riverlands.  What, is it time for a crusade?

MyDogIsNamedDanerys, on 18 November 2011 - 11:17 AM, said:

Or... we could just drop feudalism and switch to democracy/communism.  

I would be vastly entertained by the introduction of some Bolsheviks into the story.  I mean, I'd feel bad for Sansa and a few other beloved characters, but on the other hand...

[Alexia]

Actually, you know what KL needs?  A good smallfolk riot and castle-storming.  It would be perfect if the goldcloaks betrayed them to the rabble and let them in.  A much better ending for Cersei and the other castle inhabitants that this prophecy of her brother strangling her.

Especially if the smallfolk get the Tyrells too -- Margaery and Mace and Loras and Ser Boros and Ser Meryn...

[Sevumar]

Alexia, on 18 November 2011 - 10:55 AM, said:

You know, one of the things that bothered me while reading Chapter 2 was that Jorah hasn't told her anything about what happened in the War of Five Kings.  And in conjunction with Selmy and ADWD, it has kinda pissed me off.

He doesn't know anything about the War of the Five Kings. He's finding out the first news of events in Westeros at the same time she is in this chapter.

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Jorah fought in the rebellion.  He might not know the specifics of what was done to Rickard and Brandon, but he knows perfectly well the chain of events -- Lyanna missing and supposedly kidnapped, Brandon riding south to challenge Rhaegar, the fathers being summoned and murdered without trial, and the subsequent demands for Ned and Robert (neither of whom did anything) to be turned over.

I've often wondered how much he knew about what went on and the crimes of Aerys II. It may be that his personal knowledge of the war only begins after Ned escaped from the Eyrie and called his banners. Anything before that would probably just be speculation and rumor to him. I don't think we're far enough out that anyone's written an authorized history on it, and those things tend to glorify their participants, not give a factual account of what happened.

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If she is going to hate Ned, at least hate him based on facts instead of ignorance.  Goodness knows, there's plenty of reason for her to hate Ned -- certainly the atrocities that took place around the rebellion, the murder of the Targaryen children, the Sack of KL, her own enforced exile, et cetera.  Ned is one of the key leaders of the rebellion and thus he shares in the responsibility for those events, and we determined earlier that his troops probably participated in the Sack.

I don't think there's any legitimate reason for her to hate Ned. There's no evidence that Ned is guilty of any of the atrocities committed in the war, and certainly he's not responsible for the murders of her niece and nephew. Ned's forces arrived at KL during/after the sack, as Jorah explains, but again, there's no direct evidence that Ned allowed his forces to participate in the looting. I'm not sure how you came to that determination, as there's a lack of evidence for it.

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But this is frustrating, and I'm having trouble blaming the character on this score because I find it so over the top and unbelievable that she would not have pumped Jorah for everything he knew about her family and the rebellion.

You'd think she would have, once both Jorah and Selmy mention their parts in the deposition of the Mad King. But, as is often the case, this is probably a manifestation of her willful ignorance about the real history of her family and what they did to the kingdoms in the last days of their reign.

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I'm a big fan of the kingdoms dividing again.  There's no cultural similarities between huge swaths and the continent is too big to govern effectively without dragons.

I think dividing the kingdoms, with a political structure to help keep the peace so they're not constantly fighting each other, would work. Failing that, government by a council might be the way to go if everyone's going to stay together.

[Sevumar]

SeanF, on 18 November 2011 - 07:10 AM, said:

Sevumar,

In ADWD, Daenerys didn't actually think it was much of a point in his favour that Ned had argued against her assasination.

If this is the case, then it shows me that she's really not the caliber of person who is fit to rule after all. It's actually rather like Maester Aemon says in AGoT, that everyone is dutiful when it's easy, but it's what you do when confronted with hard truths and difficult decisions that really shows who you are.

Part of her problem is her age. All of us go through the shattering of myths about our parents at one point or another during our teenage years. I get that it's more difficult for Dany because neither of her parents are around for her to talk to, and she has bigger demons than a lot of people will. But if she wants to be a person in a position of extraordinary power, she needs to begin showing that she's up to the task by admitting these hard truths and coming to terms with them.

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If she is to rule Westeros successfully, she'll have to be prepared to accept some painful truths about her father.

At this point in the story, I'm not sure she can rule Westeros successfully. She doesn't seem to be exhibiting the kind of personal growth toward the traits a leader for these times will require. She probably has a place in the leadership of the war against the Others, by virtue of having survived and possessing dragons, but she's no peacetime queen.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

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there's no direct evidence that Ned allowed his forces to participate in the looting. I'm not sure how you came to that determination, as there's a lack of evidence for it.

It comes from the way that Jorah describes the sack in a storm of swords.  He implies that evveryone was taking part, no matter what kind of man they might have been before teh war, they all had monsters inside them that came out that day.

Northerners and Lannister men alike were raping and murdering children that day.  Obviously I don't think either Jorah or Ned themselves were, but the whole point is that the commoners suffer during the war because in war soldiers can't be controlled no matter how strict you are (unless they are unsullied, which was the point of this anecdote from Jorah's perspective).

Is this a legit reason to "hate" Ned?  Obviously not since I'm sure Ned (like Jorah) wouldn't have been happy with this behavior.  But  I don't think me or Alexia were saying that anyway.  What we're saying is that she has good reasons to consider him her enemy, and to consider that he has committed crimes against her family. and it would be nice if she knew the whole truth.  Anyway there is as of yet NO EVIDENCE that she hates Ned.  As I pointed out in my recap she seems more afraid of him than anything.

I'm going to completely disagree with your concept that she is "willfully ignorant" of anything by this point.  If you want to throw around that allegation when it comes up that's fine, but tossing it around now is pretty unfair.

[Sevumar]

MyDogIsNamedDanerys, on 19 November 2011 - 06:20 PM, said:

It comes from the way that Jorah describes the sack in a storm of swords.  He implies that evveryone was taking part, no matter what kind of man they might have been before teh war, they all had monsters inside them that came out that day.

Except that he says he saw King's Landing after the sack. Every account we have of the sack implies that Ned arrived when the destruction and killing was over, and that it was the Lannister men who were responsible for it. Jorah's making a generalization about men, but he never says that the Northerners participated in the sack, and in fact it would've been hard for them to do so since they arrived after the damage was done.

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Northerners and Lannister men alike were raping and murdering children that day.

None of the sources we have implicate Northerners in this deed, and Ned's actions in the immediate aftermath of the sack and his reaction to Robert's acceptance of what the Lannisters did shows that he did not approve. Remember, Ned had a heated argument with Robert and then left the city in disgust to finish the war in the south and lift the siege of Storm's End.

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I'm going to completely disagree with your concept that she is "willfully ignorant" of anything by this point.  If you want to throw around that allegation when it comes up that's fine, but tossing it around now is pretty unfair.

The willful ignorance line about this particular topic is a reference to conversation in ASoS, and that's made pretty clear in the sentence you're talking about. I wasn't "tossing it around" about anything in this particular chapter.

[Alexia]

ACOK Daenerys Chapter III
Analysis & Summary

Xaro gave Dany a collar with an enchanted amethyst that protects against poison because the Pureborn are famous for offering poisoned wine.  Unfortunately, they haven't offered her anything at all.

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They never saw me for a queen, she thought bitterly.  I was only an afternoon's amusement, a horse girl with a curious pet.

She is wearing a Qartheen dress with one bared breast because the Enthroned won't take a Dothraki seriously. Notably, Xaro isn't Pureborn.

She comments that she gave a ton of gold in bribes and asks if she could send Jorah to demand the return of her gifts.  Xaro disabuses her of the idea.

Merchant princes are divided into three factions: Guild of Spicers, Tourmaline Brotherhood, and the Thirteen.  Xaro belongs to the Thirteen.  Xaro has been providing her a lot of help and he is the one who got her the ogld, by ensuring that gawkers gave her gifts.  She got saffron, lace, amber and dragon glace, etc, so some valuable gifts.  Even zorses! And the dried corpse of someone's husband!  

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The Tourmaline Brotherhood pressed on her a crown wrought in the shape of a three-headed dragon; the coils were yellow gold, the wings silver, the heads carved from jade, ivory, and onyx.

The crown was the only offering she'd kept.  The rest she sold, to gather the wealth she had wasted on the Pureborn.  Xaro would have sold the crown too -- the Thirteen would see that she had a much finer one, he swore -- but Dany forbade it.  "Viserys sold my mother's crown, and men called him a beggar.  I shall keep this one, so men will call me a queen."  And so she did, though the weight of it made her neck ache.

Yet even crowned, I am a beggar still, Dany thought. I have become the most splendid beggar in the world, but a beggar all the same.

Interesting (and accurate) thought processes here.

She thinks that part of her wants to go back to Vaes Tolorro and make the dead city bloom but that would be defeat.  She comments that Lord Redwyne fought for her father and was one of the few to be remain true until the end.  She wonders if he'll fight for her too, and realizes that there is no way to be sure after so long.

She asks Xaro for ships and he tells her to marry him and sail the ship of his heart.  She thinks that she is amused by his flowery protestations of passion but he doesn't notice her bare breast (which Jorah ogles) and she saw lots of beautiful boys around him.

I like this line:
"I mean to sail to Westeros and drink the wine of vengeance from the skull of the Usurper."

She threatens to go to the rival guilds and then to the warlocks.  Xaro is dismissive of the other guilds and concerned about those warlocks.  He says that he gave her an army of knights in shining army (they were little decorations) and she responds that itis not the kind her enemies need to fear.

They stop to watch a firemage.  Quaithe says:

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"Half a year gone, that man could scarcely waken fire from dragonglass.  He had some small skill with powders and wildfire, sufficient to entrance a crowd while his cutpurses did their work.  He could walk across hot coals and make burning roses bloom in the air, but he could no more aspire to climb the fiery ladder than a common fisherman could hope to catch a kraken in his nets.  And now his powers grow, Khaleesi.  And you are the cause of it.

The dragons are bringing magic back into the world.  And we are starting to see the changes.

She tells Dany:

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"You must leave this city soon, Daenerys Targaryen, or you will never be permitted to leafve it at all."
"Where wouldyou have me go?"
"To go north, you must journey south.  To reach the west,you must go east.  To go forward you must go back and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

Dany asks what is in Asshai that she cannot find in Qarth and Quaithe tells her truth.  I wonder what is meant by this... we've figured some of this out (Westeros is west, backwards is the Dothraki sea, etc.) but what is this truth?  Is it possibly the truth about Aerys and her family?  Or about the fall of Valyria?  Or how dragons came to go extinct?

Dany thinks that the dragons are growing and already twice the size they were in Vaes Tolorro.But they must be trained or they will lay waste to her kingdom (hello, Tyrion!).

Jorah clues her in on Qartheen wedding customs and Xaro's scheme to get a dragon from her through marriage.  He doesn't want to go to Asshai, but Dany says that she has friends in the Free cities who are truer than Xaro or the Pureborn.

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"If you mean Illyrio Mopatis, I wonder.  For sufficient gold, Illyrio would sell you as quickly as he would a slave."
"My brother and I were guests in Illyrio's manse for half a year.  If he meant to sell us, he could have done it then."
"He did sell you.  To Khal Drogo."

He goes on to ask what she truly knows of Illyrio and she responds that she knows he gave her the dragon eggs.  He told her that if Illyrio knew they would hatch, he would have sat on them himself.  She smiles and agrees with him.

Great lines here.

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"Sellswords have their uses but you will not win your father's throne with sweepings form the Free Cities.  Nothing knits a broken realm together so quick as an invading army on its soil."
"I am their rightful queen."
"You are a stranger who means to landon their shores with an army of outlanders who cannot even speak the Common Tongue.  The lords of Westeros do not know you, and have every reason to fear and mistrust you.  You must with them over beforeyou sail.  A few at least.

She decides to go to Pyat Pree and the warlocks.

Final Analysis:
I really enjoyed this chapter.  Dany is showing some good development and it is well written and fun to read.  I like her sparring with Xaro and her attempts to take control of her future and get that throne.  She's still woefully naive (see:  Xaro's proposal of marriage) but growing up.

She shouldn't tease Jorah though, if she doesn't like him. But I notice that he talks down to her a lot here, which he shouldn't do either.  At one point she wonders if he truly sees her as a queen (answer: no).

Sorry for being so late with this one, all.  No excuse, I've just been lazy.

[Verboten]

Maybe they're talking about the flames of Rh'llor and those who see visions within them when talking about Asshai? Just speculation but I would not really like it if she were to literally travel to Asshai.