Renly & Ser Loras

[Aegon Targaryen X]

I made the connection of Renly and Loras based on Stannis and Jamie talking. Also if the Rainbow Guard is meant to be Renly's symbol of him being a homosexual why let a woman join it when he could have said no. Loras saying he buried Renly someplace where nobody would ever disturb him was the info I needed to convince myself.

[Your_Grace]

I didn't like the fact that HBO showed them doing sexual things. I mean, I believe their gay but I also like the fact that it's not paraded around you know? Like it's just up for the reader to decide what to think about their relationship.

But whatever. :rolleyes: Haha!

[Ygrette]

...because you don't like things to be too explicit when in the books they've just been hinted at or because you don't like gay relationships be spelled out for you? Not sure what you mean by "parading it around". There was a lot of sex in the show, not all of it has been written in the books. And if I remember correctly, we don't even see Loras and Renly having sex, but just kissing naked and shaving each other. That's pretty harmless, IMO, when compared to other scenes in the show.

I didn't mind the scene at all, but I have to add I hadn't read the book before I saw the show.

[Your_Grace]

No, I'm totally okay with gay relationships really. It has nothing to do with that. I'm sorry if I didn't phrase what I thought right. It's just that I read the books before I watched the series and I kinda wanted the same feeling reading when I was watching. Which was the "not sure if they're really gay or not" mystery. It's just me soooo..

I'm not sure if I made myself clear but that's all I got in terms of explaining what I think.

[Greywolf2375]

It's the secret that everyone knows about, that no one is really going to comment on because of the two houses that are involved in it.

...because you don't like things to be too explicit when in the books they've just been hinted at or because you don't like gay relationships be spelled out for you? Not sure what you mean by "parading it around". There was a lot of sex in the show, not all of it has been written in the books. And if I remember correctly, we don't even see Loras and Renly having sex, but just kissing naked and shaving each other. That's pretty harmless, IMO, when compared to other scenes in the show.

I didn't mind the scene at all, but I have to add I hadn't read the book before I saw the show.

We don;t see them having sex, but there was no question that at the end of the shaving scene that Loras was givng Renly a blowjob.

[Jon Flowers]

I don't think that homosexual relationships would necesarily be frowned upon in Westeros so long as they remain in the "proper" social context. One might liken it to the attitudes of the Greeks and the Romans in antiquity and the midieval Japanese (and may other cultures with which I am less familiar no doubt) although presumeably not quite to that extent. These realationships were so common that they were almost expected, but they were meant to stay confined to the young or occasionally a young man and an older one. What was important was that the realationship didn't interfere with a man's ability or willingness to produce heirs (especially if he belonged to a noble family). In a situation such as Loras and Renly's, such a relationship would in no way be abnormal but when they came of age they would both be expected to get married and have children and the relationship would be expected to become one of friendship. Additionally though, a wealthy and powerfull man would be every bit as able to keep boys around to entertain him as he would be to keep women. As long as infidelity was not flaunted, no one cared whether a lord was into boys or girls. Even with all of this seeming permissiveness though, longterm monogamous homosexual relationships were for the most part not tolerated in the past because they were seen as taking away from a man's presumed duty as a man, namely to father children. Gay sex would not interfere with this. Gay relationships would. Placing Loras and Renly (and even Lyn Corbray) into such a context can be helpfull in understanding people's reactions to them. Basically, at most they may be the target of an occasional jibe (far less than today) unless they chose to eschew marriage and remain together instead, in which case they would be viewed as downright perverse and likely almost universally condemned.

[Jon Flowers]

And folks, if we're going to have a grownup conversation about an issue as potentially explosive as this, we'll need to not be so quick to impune one another's motives over a simple misunderstanding. That's the sort of thing that keeps people from wanting to contribute at all.

[Sandy Snow]

My thoughts were the reason this relationship has never been positively confirmed is that we've never had a POV from a character who COULD positively confirm. All the info we have is gossip, hearsay and personal feelings form other characters. There's no way this relationship can be made explicit until either Renly (KIA) or Loras (MIA) has a POV. Ergo, it's not going to be.

[brena]

I have to disagree that the relationship was subtly hinted at in the books. Ok, it's not stated explicitly "Renly and Loras are in a gay relationship", there are no lengthly discussions about it, they're not seen walking around holding hands, and neither have POV.

However, it got the impression that everybody and their grandmas knows about it. At least everybody at the court, who's not completely oblivious like Sansa in the early books. Whenever there's a vague mention of it, nobody seems especially surprised or seems to think of it as something particularly special.

Even Jaime Lannister, who's present at court but really not into the whole political games nor gossip circles, knows about it and makes a very unsubtle comment about it in a Storm for Swords, something like "I'll shove that sword up somewhere even Renly never found" to Loras (I forgot the exact citation).

The TV adaptation is not restricted to the POV of the books, and can show scenes that are implied or referenced but never seen by a POV. You get a glimpse at what goes on behind closed doors, get into private discussions, see a lot of people naked. Depending on whom you ask, it's either a wonderful thing or an horrible insult to the original material (the tv adaptation, not the naked people).

[Ygrette]

And folks, if we're going to have a grownup conversation about an issue as potentially explosive as this, we'll need to not be so quick to impune one another's motives over a simple misunderstanding. That's the sort of thing that keeps people from wanting to contribute at all.

I was honestly only asking because I was interested.

Sorry if I am the cause for people not wanting to contribute in this forum anymore. That was certainly not my intention.

[Daena the Defiant]

...because you don't like things to be too explicit when in the books they've just been hinted at or because you don't like gay relationships be spelled out for you? Not sure what you mean by "parading it around". There was a lot of sex in the show, not all of it has been written in the books. And if I remember correctly, we don't even see Loras and Renly having sex, but just kissing naked and shaving each other. That's pretty harmless, IMO, when compared to other scenes in the show.

I didn't mind the scene at all, but I have to add I hadn't read the book before I saw the show.

Actually, it showed them shaving and bathing and then Loras' head dropping off screen to (I presume) blow Renly, but that is fairly tame compared to how much of Ros we have been presented with and the "background music" of two naked hookers going at it while Littlefinger gives a lecturing speech about something.

That the naked hookers performing cunnilingus on each other is A) not at all relevant to the scene and B.) totally invented for the show ... but somehow it is "parading" to show affectionate naked time between Loras and Renly which is A) relevant to the scene, and saga, for that matter and B.) referred to obliquely in the novels..... yeesh.

[LifeRuiner]

I was told about Renly/Loras even before I read the books (and no, I'm not a brand new fan, it was around the time AFfC came out). So I didn't have any trouble picking up on the innuendo but I see how some others might have, at least until Jaime's remark to Loras about Renly, the sword, and the shoving? Come on, you'd at least give it a second's thought after Loras' reaction to his words.

A food for thought: George said in an interview that they weren't the only homosexual characters in the books, men or women. So there might be more "surprises" on the show.

[TheLightningLord]

Another thing that points towards their relationship, though subtle, is when Loras went berserk after Renly's death and slew the 2 Kingsguard that were protecting him. It seems to me he wouldn't go that nuts unless he had some direct affection towards Renly.

[Darth Visenya]

Obviously watching the show first made me more aware of it but both Stannis and Jaimes comments in the books make it very obvious.

Slightly off topic but wasn't Richard 1st rumoured to be gay?. I see the situation in the books being more of that nature-it's rumoured and implied but as homosexuality is frowned upon it is not openly discussed by any other characters.